[Geof]

Look at the links, you will see Honda's electrolyzing hydrogen stations are solar powered. Doesn't sound like Honda thinks it's more rediculous. Maybe you should contact them and explain where they are going wrong.

Perhaps you should find some recent opinions expressed by Dr Ulf Bossel the Chairman of the Lucerne Fuel Cell Forum which include: "A hydrogen infrastructure is not needed for solving the energy problem ... The best sustainable solution is obtained by linking renewable electicity sources directly to the energy needs of consumers by means of efficient power transmission lines." and "The direct distribution of electricity to the consumer is three to four times more efficient than its conversion to hydrogen by electrolysis of water, packaging and transportation of synthetic energy to the consumer and its conversion back to electricity with efficient fuel cells. Fuel cells are energy converters, not energy sources,... the laws of physics speak against a hydrogen economy, and physics cannot be changed by wishful thinking, political initiatives, research programs or venture capital."

On a different aspect of the same energy topic look up a recent issue of The Gartman Letter (www.thegartmanletter.com) on ethanol as an energy source.

Dr Bossel's comment is the correct one; wishful thinking will not make things work.

[daedalus]

geoff, i dont mean to poke holes in your argument, because to some extent i agree with you. But wasnt Dr Ulf Bossel discussing the impact of distributed (local) generation schemes vs centralised generation schemes using hydrogen as the delivery method?

Honda are proposing generating hydrogen near the point of use, not transporting preprocessed hydrogen to the end user, so this really isnt the same as a conventional 'hydrogen economy' where fuel is transported from a central location. Also the argument against hydrogen assumes you can have a wired electricity supply as an alternative, which isnt really applicable to vehicles.

I dont know enough about natural gas to hydrogen conversion to comment on that, but I think the main question is whether they can generate enough hydrogen through solar to provide enough fuel for their cars at these charging stations. Something tells me they cant at the moment, but i would be happy to be proved wrong.

[pminmo]

Perhaps you should find some recent opinions expressed by Dr Ulf Bossel the Chairman of the Lucerne Fuel Cell Forum which include: "A hydrogen infrastructure is not needed for solving the energy problem ... The best sustainable solution is obtained by linking renewable electicity sources directly to the energy needs of consumers by means of efficient power transmission lines." and "The direct distribution of electricity to the consumer is three to four times more efficient than its conversion to hydrogen by electrolysis of water, packaging and transportation of synthetic energy to the consumer and its conversion back to electricity with efficient fuel cells. Fuel cells are energy converters, not energy sources,... the laws of physics speak against a hydrogen economy, and physics cannot be changed by wishful thinking, political initiatives, research programs or venture capital."

Dr Bossel's comment is the correct one; wishful thinking will not make things work.

I agree wishfull thinking won't solve anything. I also agree that Hydrogen is not a natural energy source, it must be extracted, but so must petroleum based products. Gas just doesn't show up either. Energy storage is an absolute requirement and hydrogen maybe one form of energy storage.

Something will change in vehicle energy at current gas prices. OPEC has taken note of people willing to move away from oil. If gas prices go down to sub $1.50/gallon it may slow down the desire for conversion, but unlike the 70's, technology has solved a lot of problems that make other energy storage forms reasonable.

Honda evidenty thinks there is merit to hydrogen as energy storage, and that solar is the best source to run the conversion process. As to Dr xxx or Dr. yyy opinions they maybe right, they may not. But they aren't sinking capital investment into it, Honda is. I'd follow the money if I were betting.

The one bet I would make, is that electricity will evenually be dominated by solar power, which wind and hydro are a subset. There is more IR energy received from the sun in minutes, than north america consumes in energy in years.

[diarmaid]

Just in case anyone didn't use their initiative to look at the two photos on the home page: http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/

Wasted a few hours today stuck in gridlock trying to find Steorn. I didnt succeed. Probably because when I got to the area I was too irritated by traffic congestion to hang around long enough to find them. Im sure their building is there, I probably took a wrong turn. Anyway, I'll look again in the next few days when I get a chance......what do you think is the chance of them showing me their 'contraption'?...maybe getting a few exclusive photos for the zone!

[pstockley]

I agree wishfull thinking won't solve anything. I also agree that Hydrogen is not a natural energy source, it must be extracted, but so must petroleum based products

This may be true but the return on energy inputs for extracting oil is way better than any other fuel source that we know of. I think it used to be in the region of 50:1 but is steady shrinking as oil is getting harder to extract. I think I read it is nearer 10:1 at the moment.

[diarmaid]

This may be true but the return on energy inputs for extracting oil is way better than any other fuel source that we know of. I think it used to be in the region of 50:1 but is steady shrinking as oil is getting harder to extract. I think I read it is nearer 10:1 at the moment.

Pretty much an irrelevant argument whatever the ratios since oil will run out and we'll have no choice but to change. Your point is only valid while we have oil left. Hopefully the H2O won't run out, or we'll have bigger problems on our hands!

[pminmo]

This may be true but the return on energy inputs for extracting oil is way better than any other fuel source that we know of. I think it used to be in the region of 50:1 but is steady shrinking as oil is getting harder to extract. I think I read it is nearer 10:1 at the moment.

I can't argue figures, because I just can't find any on the net that show the whole cost. But it's not just extraction costs, it research, construction of rigs, pipelines, delivery systems, tankers and transportation just for the crude. Add to that the cost of refineries, delivery to gas stations, trucks, tanks, fuel to move it all, gas stations..... Think about it, look at all the pieces, that machinery isn't cheap!

I question if the total costs of petroleum are that cheap both in nonrecurring and recurring costs. If someone can point me to some good websites that take it all into consideration? I can't argue we have a system built around oil and its products, and that won't be easy or fast to change.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, as many "conspiracies" are so unsupported in facts, economics and common sense. The real underlying fact is just plain old desire to keep the status quo. Guess who would be the largest looser in the US if all of a sudden we could produce our own home and vehicle fuel? Not the utilities, not the big oil companies...It would be the Federal Government! Washington has no interest in getting away from gas, makes no difference in political party.

But also it would be a huge impact to the worlds economy, lost jobs, taxes....

I don't know, but if I were a betting man, if Honda can do what they are thinking, I'd be buying Honda stock. Even if they could pull off a small percentage, it would have a drastic effect on oil prices, and there has been concern expressed by the OPEC guys that with prices as high as they have been, consumers will want some alternative. Consumers wield a lot of power if it helps their pocket book. Look at what has happened in battery technology. It's because consumers want more laptop time, cell phone time.....the $ is a powerful research focus.

It will be consumers pocket books that will drive change, not some political or environmental movement.

[diarmaid]

Hi all,
Someone here mentioned about this Massive Yet Tiny engine a while ago but cant find the post now. Anyway, I tried zipping some of the videos for you all but they wouldn't upload, I dont know why. But the link to the resource section of the site is below. Theres a good assembly video which gives a clear view of some of the parts.

Man I would love to get my hands on one of these if they work. Maybe someone more experienced than me can look at the videos and tell us what you think. Certainly doesn't look like pie in the sky and theres more info than Steorn's thing (Didnt get time to go looking for them again yet). Maybe a machinist from the zone with some free time might even try to use the info on the site to make up one of these themselves!...

http://www.angellabsllc.com/resourse.html

[Geof]

Here is the thread:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...ssive+yet+tiny

[diarmaid]

My most recent communication from Steorn:

27th September 2006

Dear Applicant,

Re: The Steorn Challenge

Thank you for registering as a potential candidate for the Steorn Challenge.
To date, we have not received a synopsis of your academic career containing the following details:

Education/ Degrees (Name of University);
Current position (e.g. University/Institute);
Research areas (On whose behalf it was conducted);
Published papers;
Honours/Awards; and
Contact details (e.g. University/Institute department - email address and telephone number).

Process
We have set midnight on 5th October 2006, as the deadline for receipt of synopses from any applicants, who have not yet forwarded details of their scientific backgrounds to Steorn. A shortlist will be generated from all the synopses received by the deadline.

If you have not forwarded a summary of your academic career by the above date, we shall presume that you are no longer interested in the Challenge and your details will be removed from the list of applicants.

If you have provided Steorn with a synopsis prior to the deadline, the process will be as follows:

From the 9th October 2006, Steorn will begin contacting applicants on the shortlist to establish their general availability as potential jury members. This part of the process should be completed in approximately two weeks. Thereafter, Steorn will commence the jury selection process.

We will provide you with a further update on the process in the coming weeks.

Thank you again for participating in the Challenge process.

Yours faithfully

Sean McCarthy

Please note that we will treat your information under the strictest confidence and that we are bound, in any event, by our obligations under the Data Protection Acts 1988-2003 in respect of same.

[diarmaid]

Hi all,
A member pm'd me asking if there was any update on Steorn. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to go looking for them again 'yet'. But I will, as soon as humanly possible. Unfortunately life sometimes gets in the way and things get put on the long finger. I really want to go and see what type of setup they have (If they let me past reception/security! ) so I definately will go and report back when I can. Maybe this Friday, but guaranteed if I go when Im off Friday afternoon, they will also be gone home!! I'll do my best.
L8rs.

[diarmaid]

Edit: As milnjor points out below, this link is now broken. I dont knkow why. Sorry.
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/18...ims_to_ha.html

A negative appraisal of Steorn, including a longer video. Incidentially, in an attempt to make myself appear less biased I need to point something out. When people lie, their eyes supposedly glance down and to the right. If you watch the marketing managers eyes in the video we may reach this conclusion when he mentions powering your car.

This topic is haunting me. I WILL find Steorns office next week. I'll bring a camera aswell. Maybe I'll pretend to be a reporter or something! (Maybe not )

Edit2: This link works:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...33525509845733

[miljnor]

link is broken

[Geof]

link is broken

Go to the ICE thread, that is where he stole it from the !@#$%^&*() plagiarist.

[diarmaid]

Go to the ICE thread, that is where he stole it from the !@#$%^&*() plagiarist.

lol..."If someone says something and says it well, take it and copy it!"

[diarmaid]

Hello all,
I have finally visited the Docklands Innovation Park (DIP) in Dublin. There's a pic below. Steorns office is just down to the right hand side. I can't exactly describe the visit as bearing much fruit unfortunately.

I did run into one of the employees who just happened to be there with his 'Environmental Engineer' friend. It was a Saturday, so not many people were around, although this gave me the advantage of not being questioned by security driving in!

Anyway, what can I tell you?

1) Steorn the company does seem to exist, at least in appearance. They have a nice shiny office which I imagine costs a pretty penny to rent since it's located in the center of the capital city.

2) The other businesses located in the Docklands Innovation Park for a large part seemed to be technology and engineering research based companies. So the Steorn office is in good company!

3) I simply told them the truth, that I am studying Transport Engineering, where I'm studying it, and that Im facinated by their claims, and wanted to come down and see if they really existed. To this he replied that a few people are doing that, and they are not "just some random marketing ploy".

4) The person I saw seemed genuine and friendly, and certainly seemed to believe in their claims. Although he became extraordinarily tight lipped as soon as I tried to gently gain any information. He would'nt even tell me how many employees they have, began laughing and told me that it was at that point when he would have to switch to his standard line of "No comment" !

So thats pretty much it.

My curiosity is aroused, and there are a few lines of enquiry that Im considering going down. For one, the number of employees is in the public domain, along with a huge amount of other company details (Turnover, Annual Sales/Profits, any Government Grants etc), and I can pay about €50 to get a full report done up on Steorn. That is of course assuming that they are indeed a fully registered business. This can also be easily established for free from the Companies Registrations Office. Also, Im wondering since they are a research company, have they or any of their employees filed any patents. This would take a while, but patent searching online will establish this. And how much exactly does it cost to rent a unit in the DIP per month or annually Im sure can be established. If anyone wants to do any of these things or other helpful investigative work, please let us know what you find! As for me, when I find out more I'll keep you updated.

L8rs.

fkaCarel: If you see this post, I tried to pm you, but you seem to have Private Messaging disabled.

[NC Cams]

I've seen a number of situations like this where some well financed "fronts" were established to achieve a specified goal. In pretty much every case, the fronts folded and the principals either "eloped" with the funds or ultimately did the "perp walk" with further "no comments" issued by their lawyers.

I don't see now an "office space" front that doesn't have labs or technical support can create devices that defy the traditional laws of physics, dynamics, thermodynamics and/or mechanics and create or more efficently generate energy.

Interstingly, the same outfits mentioned in earlier in this post also had lots of 'no comments' issued - simply because, as it turned out, there was NOTHING to comment about.

On of the tricks used by magicians is to do something over there so they disuade you from seeing what they're doing over here. It looks too much like there is "magic" being created here.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were ultiamately a front for something either run by the government to do some nefarious deeds or a front for some private enterprise that you really don't want to get messed up with. Taking pictures of EITHER entity on the weekend, especially with such tight lipped security measures, is simply not a wise thing to do.

See what you can learn from public documents. If you can, run a D&B or some other credit rating check on the outfit.

When I had a D&B run on one of the outfits that looked shadey during my early years of NASCAR involvement, we knew a year before anyone else that the one outfit that folded and left bunches of people high and dry financially was a house of cards that couldn't stand long. The numbers and registry info that any public company has to file can tell you much more than a press release if you know what to look for and how to do so.

If it looks like a duck, walks like one and quacks like one, it probably is NOT a walrus.....

[mcpltd]

We have been doing business with Steorn for a while now, they buy integrated stepper motors from us, I think it is time i visited them.

[diarmaid]

We have been doing business with Steorn for a while now, they buy integrated stepper motors from us, I think it is time i visited them.

I hope your not visiting them to get their heavies to pay me a visit .....my real name is Manuel Romanez and I took the above photo on holidays to Europe. I live very very deep in the Ecudorian rain forest.....not anywhere in Europe........

[mactec54]

Hi diarmaid
I to have been working on fuelcells for about 15 years and reading
some of the posts around this site has encouraged me to spend
more time on my fuelcells, I have moved further this month than
I had in a year and are near the trial stage last year I had some
success and that has moved to a new design I'm thinking 4 more
weeks to full test.