[D.L]

Maybe not unpatriotic, just uncompetitive against slave wages.
The cold face of business has no place for patriotism.

[WJC]

I am looking at starting in the CNC field. I have an interview tomorrow and just have some questions about this job. I am in Houston and this is a fairly new company. My background is with the Navy and I worked as a software test engineer/technical writer/systems analyst. This was in the government defense sector and with the ecomony had to move back to Houston from San Diego. This is an unfamiliar field to me but I have been researching for hours now. I know I would more than likely have to start out as an apprentice with minimal pay. I have pretty good math skills and I'm somewhat mechanically inclined...quick learner as well.

My question is...in this field would you find a lot of room for growth? I know starting at the bottom and understanding everything is the way to go, but I don't want to be stuck making small wages. I could pick up things with programming later or even move into an office type job if they needed. That is mainly what I did before. I guess I'm a bit worried. It is a new company and I'm an intelligent guy who's not affraid to get my hands dirty. Have you found a lot of advancement in this field. The company that I'm talking about deals with the oil and aerospace supply with steel. Any information would help. By the way I was making $60,000 with the civilian contractor job before. Any possiblility to get there or surpass that amount? Thanks for the help.

Wes

[handlewanker]

Age? Marital status? Kids at school? Mortgage? Car loan?.......if you say yes on any of those, forget starting an apprenticship.

Starting at the bottom the best you will get to without any prior knowledge of CNC or engineering techniques is to press the green button when the red light flashes on some NC machine working for a pittance, and 60,000 is not in the picture.

I may be wrong on that, but why do you want to start in CNC?

Most change of lifers do a welding course and go onto weld pipelines for a living.

Have you explored all the possibilities using that high tech knowledge you know and like?

Changing horses in midstream is not a recipe for success, unless you hit it lucky and ride a lucky wave.

I would look for a job within your present skill level to pay the bills, and then go into a training program until you have enough expetise in CNC programing to forge a new career path......forget about operating the machine, concentrate on programing it 'til you get good.
Ian.

[JonnyDeath]

This will probably get me banned but.....
I can't help but rant about this subject since it relates to self starters and I find countless people online crying about how their business venture didn't become a career and how you may as well prepare yourself for it to be mostly a hobby.

I have to beat this dead horse.
But most businesses fail because the plans are less than half baked.
If you can make what some guys make which is $100 an hour, you can certainly start a successful CNC milling business with the right products and services.

I will be etching PCB's for highly unique musical instrument circuits I have designed. Eventually amplifiers and guitars too. I'm well aware of the market but I have highly unique improvements in engineering techniques, structural designs and circuits that do something highly sought after only with a lot less production cost than existing commercial designs. I may also get an FFL7 and mill AR lowers, high capacity magazines and really countless other parts and products. One is etching artwork for autobody applications. I have two incredibly talented artists in my family.
I already have a small volume buyer which will potentially grow to grand scale and retailers carrying his instruments but I won't bank on it.

When people say "It's likely just to be a hobby", they can only speak for oneself.
You got into something for the hell of it, not because it was closely related to your education and career field. I just found a lot of naivety and stupidity in countless threads on countless sites from negative chumps that thought god would shine down on them and they would miraculously succeed or even get rich.

Afraid not!
Me?
My fallback plan is music.
I could be rich right now if I were willing to sign to a corporate label but then my music would turn into watered down pop for the dimwits controlled by the banks.
I'd much rather struggle and do it my way. I have the business contacts to be a pop culture turd anytime I choose but never will.

Currently I'm earning my electronic engineering degree.
Some guys are just peons with limited potential and project their own limitations, failures and limited potential onto others because ultimately they're also conceited narcissists that assume everyone is less capable and intelligent than they are.

Bottom line is, do you have a realistic plan and the confidence to make it succeed. Most people don't and vent on others for years over their halfwit fueled failures.

[Billy 1]

Get into CNC for a living ? YOU MUST BE OUT OF WHATS LEFT OF YOUR MIND ! I started this mess in 1995 running a file for 7.50 an hour . I moved around to learn more and my pay INCREASED up till the end of the economy and I have been taking lay offs and pay cuts ever since . I LOVE the job I have now I am exposed to alter net turning programming that I would never had been exposed to if I didn't get this job . I have been exposed to more and more maintenance that I have been spoiled by having a true to life Mazak tech on hand for in the past . I have an engineer with a brain and that's hard to find . But as I said I have taken a pay cut from what I was at in 2004 , as just a set up operator . No programming with that job and little trouble shooting , Put the tools in , teach and describe them find Z zero and go . MAYBE bore a set of jaws now and again . Now I am the tool crib attendant , programmer , supervisor , set up , maintenance and all around everything . I am LUCKY to be exposed to what I am doing now . But along the way I have seen customers leave the company I was with to do business with China ! It has cost me pay and jobs . Now a days to be a machinist you have to move to China to have job security . My best advice if you are getting a late start keep it that way and find something to do that can't be done over seas !

[JonnyDeath]

Get into CNC for a living ? YOU MUST BE OUT OF WHATS LEFT OF YOUR MIND ! I started this mess in 1995 running a file for 7.50 an hour . I moved around to learn more and my pay INCREASED up till the end of the economy and I have been taking lay offs and pay cuts ever since . I LOVE the job I have now I am exposed to alter net turning programming that I would never had been exposed to if I didn't get this job . I have been exposed to more and more maintenance that I have been spoiled by having a true to life Mazak tech on hand for in the past . I have an engineer with a brain and that's hard to find . But as I said I have taken a pay cut from what I was at in 2004 , as just a set up operator . No programming with that job and little trouble shooting , Put the tools in , teach and describe them find Z zero and go . MAYBE bore a set of jaws now and again . Now I am the tool crib attendant , programmer , supervisor , set up , maintenance and all around everything . I am LUCKY to be exposed to what I am doing now . But along the way I have seen customers leave the company I was with to do business with China ! It has cost me pay and jobs . Now a days to be a machinist you have to move to China to have job security . My best advice if you are getting a late start keep it that way and find something to do that can't be done over seas !

Everyone...EVERYONE!

Look at Billy here.
He is an example of no confidence.
No confidence, no education, no ability to produce and merely a trained laborer.

Of course his post is negative. He is ignorant beyond the level of taking orders and losing jobs. This is all he can share with you. His recipe for no confidence and job failure.
Remember when you read these misery stories. This person only speaks for oneself and the opinion is contaminated.

I have my own products.
I have engineering and design experience and formal education.
I have inventions that can be patented.
I know what market is currently in such great demand, earning 6 figures a year and possibly 7 is not an outrageous claim. It's very realistic and merely requires your ability to do tremendous volume.
Your stock will sell within hours.
In fact, I see sellers putting 100 units on the market and they sell out in less than 24 hours. I also see sellers putting 1000 units on the market and they sell in under 24 hours.

If you don't know what that market is, well I'm not telling you Billy. It's a waste of words on someone who has no confidence and just contaminated the minds of others who are not obligated to follow in your footsteps of failure.

[handlewanker]

I second that.......some people miss the boat because they are born servers.

You have to take what you're given and be thankfull if that is all you aspire to.
Ian.

[peterde]

NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!!! I've been a toolmaker for nearly 38 years now. Consider the education, investment in tools, experience and the hazards of the job, not to mention that I predate MSDS (another joke on us all) and have been exposed to all kinds of hazardous chemicals (i.e. Trichloroethane 1.1.1, loose asbestos, PCB's etc). Now look at what a plumber or electrician gets. Very few have more invested than guys like me have and yet they get paid 3 or 4 times the rate at least.

Machining is a destroyed profession. Years ago it would be listed under skilled trades and was an honored profession. Now it's mixed in with Walmart baggers and McDonalds burger flippers. The field has been glutted with operators and button pushers that call themselves machinists. Let's make no mistake here. Most of these people are NOT machinists! If they tell you they are, hand them a print for even a simple part and ask them to make it. They won't because they can't. They can't make it MANUALLY, and if they can't do that then they can't do it with a CNC. See if they can actually WRITE a CNC program. More often than not, they can barely know how to set a tool.

Shop politics is a real treat! It's like working in a game of rumor. A bunch of bickering squabbling kids. Remember the machinists mantra, "We the willing, lead by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible, for the ungrateful, and have done so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.

My advice is to stay way away from these shops. They'll use you and abuse you then lose you with no remorse. If you like to make things, invest in yourself. Buy your machine, get good at it, and set your own pay and hours.

[Billy 1]

NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!!! I've been a toolmaker for nearly 38 years now. Consider the education, investment in tools, experience and the hazards of the job, not to mention that I predate MSDS (another joke on us all) and have been exposed to all kinds of hazardous chemicals (i.e. Trichloroethane 1.1.1, loose asbestos, PCB's etc). Now look at what a plumber or electrician gets. Very few have more invested than guys like me have and yet they get paid 3 or 4 times the rate at least.

Machining is a destroyed profession. Years ago it would be listed under skilled trades and was an honored profession. Now it's mixed in with Walmart baggers and McDonalds burger flippers. The field has been glutted with operators and button pushers that call themselves machinists. Let's make no mistake here. Most of these people are NOT machinists! If they tell you they are, hand them a print for even a simple part and ask them to make it. They won't because they can't. They can't make it MANUALLY, and if they can't do that then they can't do it with a CNC. See if they can actually WRITE a CNC program. More often than not, they can barely know how to set a tool.

Shop politics is a real treat! It's like working in a game of rumor. A bunch of bickering squabbling kids. Remember the machinists mantra, "We the willing, lead by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible, for the ungrateful, and have done so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.

My advice is to stay way away from these shops. They'll use you and abuse you then lose you with no remorse. If you like to make things, invest in yourself. Buy your machine, get good at it, and set your own pay and hours.

THANK YOU SIR ! That was the EXACT point I was making before Johnny Depp over there started calling me uneducated and no self confidence and such .

[JonnyDeath]

The real 2 problems of this industry are:

1) China being handed our economy by people like King Moose Lips. I have an email response from him. He hates America and will do nothing to protect the small business owners, inventors and designers.

2) Machine shops will hire unskilled bozos off the street.
I have only worked in 1 machine shop. I have had many friends that work in factory oriented machine shops. I was a low end laborer that would eventually be moved to a department of parts fabrication and processing.

These shops today do not look for certified machinists unless they do precision work, must constantly change with their niche product market and do the business to afford these highly skilled fabricators.
Too many shops just hire people to wire wheel and polish completed parts, sort parts, clean parts, stock this and that, deliver materials to the guys on the floor and slowly get taught the craft in a very limited form.

They learn how to make what that shop makes and if they are not a creative thinker, their skills will never go much beyond that.
I am not here to insult people though surely I do. I just don't pander to over sensitivity and people on SSRI's. The average person has an IQ of 100 so regardless of what they can research, come up with, copy and finally produce, they are not intelligent and creative enough to produce something unique in design or that can be patented.

What we need to do is tell King Moose Lips to add a department of design registration to the office of patents and trademarks. Every country that isn't destroyed by Chinese merchandise has one. Even China has one! Their patent system does not work like ours. They can patent unique designs due to aesthetics.

Meanwhile in America if you design a unique circuit, a unique piece of furniture, a unique piece of clothing, a unique aesthetic car part there is absolutely NOTHING to stop a wealthy business criminal from copying it, maybe even refining it, outsourcing to China and flooding the market with a hundred thousand copies of YOUR WORK!
You are then out of business in your 1 man shop or 10 man shop or family run shop or even if you are producing house designed products then outsourced manufacturing to China to then direct market your sales.

We can not compete with those production numbers and their ability to get on the shelves of these retailers such as Target and Walmart that should just be named CHINA'S STORE on the front and 90% of the products should not be deceptively titled with English sounding brands.
They all should be branded with the name CHINA.
It's not Remington shavers or Rugged Outback jeans. It's CHINA shaver and CHINA jeans.
The average person blue or white collar buys into the brand deception.
It's just another form of brainwasing.

People like King Moose Lips serve the communists and he made it very clear in his email, very clear in his policies and most clear when the President of China, Emperor Ass Lips demanded our guns be taken away.

You know he has ass lips because he used them to do a lot of kissing and buy up over 60% of America's debt so they now boss that little wimp in the white house around who very obviously obeys.

[peterde]

[QUOTE=JonnyDeath;1243547]Everyone...EVERYONE!

Look at Billy here.
He is an example of no confidence.
No confidence, no education, no ability to produce and merely a trained laborer.

Then Jonny --- Why don't you just show us all how it's done! I don't know Billy at all, but I'd be willing to bet that he can outproduce you any day of the week.

"I have my own products."
Then produce them!

"I have engineering and design experience and formal education."
I have design engineering experience of my own and have automated companies like Grey Syracuse, Consolidated Medical, and worked on prototype turbine engines for GE. You're working on a degree --- I have three! Want to compare notes?

"I have inventions that can be patented."
Then patent them! I have several myself, including four that I count that were patented when someone else did an end run around me stealing them. That's what some do when they can't do it themselves in spite of having a "formal" education.

If you don't know what that market is, well I'm not telling you Billy. It's a waste of words on someone who has no confidence and just contaminated the minds of others who are not obligated to follow in your footsteps of failure."
Translation: He doesn't know either, but he doesn't want you to know that. Then again, I guess I've been contaminated and am doomed to failure!

"I can't help but rant about this subject (Yes you can --- please try) since it relates to self starters and I find countless people online crying about how their business venture didn't become a career and how you may as well prepare yourself for it to be mostly a hobby.
Translation: He doesn't have a clue how to create a business plan and make it work, but he wants everyone to think he has all the answers.

"Me?
My fallback plan is music.
I could be rich right now if I were willing to sign to a corporate label but then my music would turn into watered down pop for the dimwits controlled by the banks."

Translation:He'd like to be rich off of his music but no one will pay to hear him play. IF he could be rich right now off of his music, how many of us are willing to believe that he wouldn't be? Wouldn't you? I would, but I can't play music.

"I'd much rather struggle and do it my way. I have the business contacts to be a pop culture turd anytime I choose but never will."

Translation:He's not willing to demean himself with all that filthy money.

"Currently I'm earning my electronic engineering degree.
Some guys are just peons with limited potential and project their own limitations, failures and limited potential onto others because ultimately they're also conceited narcissists that assume everyone is less capable and intelligent than they are."

You mean like you're doing right now? Silly me! I already have a ME degree and two business degrees. Mine's not the same as yours. Woe is me!

Jonny, with all your bragging the ONLY thing you're doing is to broadcast your own "limited potential" showing that you are yourself the "conceited narcissist" that you claim all these others are. By bragging that you are "more capable" and not producing, you show that you actually can't yourself.

There was a time when I wanted the world to think I had all the answers, but I outgrew it. These days I greatly prefer that people think I have none of the answers. That way they leave me alone and in peace. If you view others as less capable, less intelligent and otherwise beneath you, they will invariably live up to your expectations. On the other hand, if you view people as intelligent and capable they will tend to rise to the occasion and again, live up to your expectations.

Dwight Eisenhower was a general and president of the US, and yet didn't have much talent for the jobs himself. What he did have though was one awesome talent. He knew how to surround himself with people that DID have talent and he knew how to delegate responsibility.

Such is the trademark of truly effective people. Take a lesson.

[JonnyDeath]

[quote=peterde;1244716]

Everyone...EVERYONE!

Look at Billy here.
He is an example of no confidence.
No confidence, no education, no ability to produce and merely a trained laborer.

Then Jonny --- Why don't you just show us all how it's done! I don't know Billy at all, but I'd be willing to bet that he can outproduce you any day of the week.

"I have my own products."
Then produce them!

"I have engineering and design experience and formal education."
I have design engineering experience of my own and have automated companies like Grey Syracuse, Consolidated Medical, and worked on prototype turbine engines for GE. You're working on a degree --- I have three! Want to compare notes?

"I have inventions that can be patented."
Then patent them! I have several myself, including four that I count that were patented when someone else did an end run around me stealing them. That's what some do when they can't do it themselves in spite of having a "formal" education.

If you don't know what that market is, well I'm not telling you Billy. It's a waste of words on someone who has no confidence and just contaminated the minds of others who are not obligated to follow in your footsteps of failure."
Translation: He doesn't know either, but he doesn't want you to know that. Then again, I guess I've been contaminated and am doomed to failure!

"I can't help but rant about this subject (Yes you can --- please try) since it relates to self starters and I find countless people online crying about how their business venture didn't become a career and how you may as well prepare yourself for it to be mostly a hobby.
Translation: He doesn't have a clue how to create a business plan and make it work, but he wants everyone to think he has all the answers.

"Me?
My fallback plan is music.
I could be rich right now if I were willing to sign to a corporate label but then my music would turn into watered down pop for the dimwits controlled by the banks."

Translation:He'd like to be rich off of his music but no one will pay to hear him play. IF he could be rich right now off of his music, how many of us are willing to believe that he wouldn't be? Wouldn't you? I would, but I can't play music.

"I'd much rather struggle and do it my way. I have the business contacts to be a pop culture turd anytime I choose but never will."

Translation:He's not willing to demean himself with all that filthy money.

"Currently I'm earning my electronic engineering degree.
Some guys are just peons with limited potential and project their own limitations, failures and limited potential onto others because ultimately they're also conceited narcissists that assume everyone is less capable and intelligent than they are."

You mean like you're doing right now? Silly me! I already have a ME degree and two business degrees. Mine's not the same as yours. Woe is me!

Jonny, with all your bragging the ONLY thing you're doing is to broadcast your own "limited potential" showing that you are yourself the "conceited narcissist" that you claim all these others are. By bragging that you are "more capable" and not producing, you show that you actually can't yourself.

There was a time when I wanted the world to think I had all the answers, but I outgrew it. These days I greatly prefer that people think I have none of the answers. That way they leave me alone and in peace. If you view others as less capable, less intelligent and otherwise beneath you, they will invariably live up to your expectations. On the other hand, if you view people as intelligent and capable they will tend to rise to the occasion and again, live up to your expectations.

Dwight Eisenhower was a general and president of the US, and yet didn't have much talent for the jobs himself. What he did have though was one awesome talent. He knew how to surround himself with people that DID have talent and he knew how to delegate responsibility.

Such is the trademark of truly effective people. Take a lesson.

You're an ignorant joke talking **** about things you know nothing about.
Do you know what it means to sign to a major label?
No.
I do.
I've worked in entertainment. I know far more than the average person, who is at best a 100 IQ peon, which is why I do not watch commercial television. I do not listen to commercial radio.
I could make a phone call and be signed tomorrow if I wanted but I don't.
I refuse to give anyone any control over my business.
Would you start a business and then bring in a complete stranger as a partner with so much power they can take most of the profits?
Obviously you would because you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

A band is a business.
Your product is music and your service is live performance of that music.
Again, you don't know what the **** you are talking about and did not comprehend it this way until I cleared things up for you.
You're an average IQ idiot at best.

Option 2 is sign to an independent label.
Then I get to keep 50% of the business's profits but I still have to answer to someone. I have to tour with the bands they want me to tour with. I have to do the radio promotions and meet and greets just as I would with a corporate label just not so fake and mainstream zombie fans.

So please, talk out your ass some more because I just gave you the 10 cent version. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and what it means to sign over your life to these people.
I do.

Option 3 is produce yourself every step of the way.
This means booking yourself, owning all your own touring gear, promoting yourself, insuring your equipment and hiring your own security. The list of details is of course massive but you will never have to answer to anyone but yourselves morning noon or night. You control who collects the money and much much more.
It's harder, longer and more stressful but ask any band or group that does it. They're much happier that way and you'll find many of the people in the industry that are self produced have signed with labels in the past and very soon after wanted out. They can tell you what songs you are to play and if you don't play them, they'll find various ways to punish you. Anything from not paying you to canceling you from a tour or pushing back the release date of your album so you miss the summer buzz which can make you rich.
So again, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

You go into full on B.S. mode quoting my statements and then like a sniveling twit put words in my mouth.
Don't you dare speak for me.
You do not know me and you do not know anything about my inventions, designs and business model.
I am already in negotiations with a big leaguer to license one of my inventions as a component to something he invented.
I won't name drop but he's worked for some big names in an industry I won't specify.
The last thing I want to do is deal with a POS like retarde trying to trash me and my work.

You act as though you have some secret crystal ball you can read my mind with and see my every move.
You're a joke and a whiny little daddy's boy that wouldn't have two nickels to rub together otherwise.
In a year, I'll be able to buy and sell your whole family making you the dumb chump sitting on the curbside wondering wtf happened.

Billy whined and cried and tried to impose his negative beliefs onto others the same way you are.
As if he has some magic crystal ball and can see everyone fail because they are inferior to him so if he could not succeed, they surely can not either..
I really hate people like you but then, you're the one that lives to hate while normal people stand up for oneself and chase away negative people like you and Billy that may corrupt the confidence and goals of someone younger than you.

You're both trash.

[handlewanker]

I'd like to make one correction to the aforementioned.........China has not been handed our economy on a plastic plate, that's in the eyes of anyone who can't compete because your labour rates are higher than the Asian community is happy to live on.

How can you make and sell products in volume if you cannot make them cheaper, and that means cheaper than someone who has a work force that pushes the green button when the red light flashes, so becoming very competitive.

The whole story that quality counts is OK if you have a product that just can't be made from cheap plastic and assembled by low paid unskilled workers by the million and sold for cents, but if you make a product that is quality dependent, low volume and dependent on a trade concious environment, then someone somewhere is going to make it out of cheap plastic and sell it for cents.......the general public on the whole will always gravitate to the cheaper end of the product chain, and if it fails in the warranty period you just get another replacement.

If you want to blame someone, blame the system that allows the importation of cheap foreign goods that undermines the home market producers.

I could name a dozen products that if they had a warranty period of 5 years and a spare parts replacement service to fix all those that went pear shaped after 5 years, would be bought in prefence to a foreign cheapie that couldn't be fixed and is considered a throw away item when it does fail.

Top of the list is the battery for the cordless anything....they cost an arm and a leg and rarely last the expected life.....12 months for a $50 battery is not cost effective when it won't hold a charge for longer than a day after only 12 months of intermittent use.

I have 6 electric kettles that have failed over some years.......none have any spare parts available to fix them and while they have been polished and kept pristine they don't work.....all made in China, all with famous brand names.

There is NOTHING on the shop shelves that is imported from China that has spare parts you can buy to make your foreign import work........every spare part that could be supplied means one less item that could be sold.

It's about time the Government made a ruling that ALL goods supplied to the domestic market must have a supply of spare parts on hand for when it failed.

One example of the cost of spare parts was the Mini motor car in the 60's.....the total sum of all the parts, if bought individually, would have cost 4 times the cost of the new car.....this makes it cost effective to buy a new car, strip it down and sell all the parts at half price and still make 100% profit.

Becoming a manufacturer means you must compete, and that starts with your cost of labour input.......replacing labour with machinery is one method that can cut costs.

Unfortunately someone has to switch the machine on and remove the finished parts etc, and they all want tea breaks, holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, overtime pay, and the highest rate of pay the market will provide, no matter if they barely managed to finish school.
Ian.

[JonnyDeath]

Here is the bottom line obviously some of you are not high up the ranks enough to see.
There are skilled laborers working in cnc based production and then there are designers and engineers relying on CNC machines as well as hand machining to produce our designs.

Currently America has no design registration to protect unique designs.
A uniquely designed piece of furniture, shirt, lamp, guitar and so forth has no means of protection under the patent system unless it performs a new function, performs an existing function but in a new unique way or, improves upon an old function.

THIS IS WHY CHINA KILLED YOUR CAREERS.
You are not seeing the big picture and attacking me for it!

I have a few circuits that are unique, perform functions better than anything I have ever heard or owned yet there is nothing to stop an American business and China from robbing the shirt off my back.
If I choose to outsources production to China, I know my work will be ripped off sooner or later.
If I produce within the states, I will still get ripped off but it will just take longer for it to happen.
I will be either polyurethane or epoxy potting my PCB's to conceal my unique circuit which was engineered from the ground up.
Eventually someone may de-goop it and copy it but hopefully I am too rich to care by then and regardless, I will still sue them for every cent I can get!

So don't tell me for a second China has not been handed our economy!
Have you ever even bothered to read the international trade agreements this idiot in the white house signs?!?
This is all by design. I have studied law recreationally for years. The horrors they implement in the bills they pass that we then pay for with taxes are just disgusting. Not only do they want to pass more bills so we have to pay them but they are written in a language the average person does not understand. Once you learn how legalese works which is not English, you figure out the infrastructure of corruption rather than just crying about how life is not fare.
You can also use this language to control them once you understand it and have enough resources amassed from the million laws that exist. However, the bottom line is that you now need to fight to get current statutes and treaties changed.
Foreign manufacturers have been handed our economy because inventors, engineers and designers can not protect most of our work!

China has been handed our economy and they want to turn everyone they can into low level blue collar servants rather than skilled technicians that can earn an income that competes with white collar yuppies.
The Asian community is happy to live on?

Shows just how poorly educated and non current you are!
The cost of living there is a fraction of what it costs to live in America.
They can go buy every product we buy from target, walmart or most malls for a fraction of the cost.
They can also go through the black flea markets and buy a $200 cell phone for 20 buck!
It's a piece of crap you say??
The hell it is. Not over there anyway.
They have more resources than we do and I've been through this with my Iphone clone.
They can take it to 1 of a hundred guys and get the firmware replaced with the genuine Iphone firmware and in fact, it's better because it's customized.

I am just well under the impression that many of you are not up to speed with the times and the way things are actually working.
You might want to consider buying a fluoride filter for your drinking water....

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

TROLL

Dick Z

[peterde]

You're right jonny. I don't know you --- nor does this dimwitted old fool want to. You make all my points every time you open your mouth. I'll hang with the trash. They're a better (and smarter) class of people. You let us all know when you achieve legendary status.

[Hirudin]

I love reading posts by moderately literate blowhards. "I'm the greatest person in the world; unfortunately, correct sentence structure and spelling have eluded me." LOL

[handlewanker]

Dear John, if you have any interesting ideas post them on the forum........then we can all "steal" them and make a fortune......those ideas that don't get stolen aren't worth a fart in a church........if we do make a fortune from your ideas, nobody can patent them once they have been published, so the Chinese can only make them cheaper which is why they win every time, but by the time they find out about your ideas they will have gone broke waiting....LOL.....if you can't beat them, join them.

Personally I think the Chinese and also the Indians now are a great bunch of fellers, otherwise we'd still be paying exorbitant amounts of money for technology that someone reviewed and no one ever made.

I always find people who are hell bent on patenting the living sh!ts out of some simple thing and then want to make a fortune as simply stupid....they, like Edison will spend the rest of their lives chasing the patent infringers through the courts and spend a fortune in the process.

If you have an earth shattering design that is a winner, (in your estimation), no one can predict the impact it will have on the market until you spend a fortune tooling up for it and waiting for it to sell.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Wowie, I wouldn't mind betting this will be the death of Jonnie....LOL.

Once you start to get worked up and resort to expletives and low end name calling, all couched in a bit of flowery language to make an impact, the end is nigh.

I'm surprised the Admin allow this last post to appear....definately derogatory and inflamable.

Jonnie, you can kiss your sorry arse goodby son, people on here like an intelligent discussion about various topics, but when someone like you gets all worked up and clambers up on a soapbox and starts waving his arms about to get attention....time to go home.....nothing you have said is valid or true.......maybe you should be a politician....LOL....perhaps you are one......getting laughed at goes with the turf.
Ian.

[JonnyDeath]

Wowie, I wouldn't mind betting this will be the death of Jonnie....LOL.

Once you start to get worked up and resort to expletives and low end name calling, all couched in a bit of flowery language to make an impact, the end is nigh.

I'm surprised the Admin allow this last post to appear....definately derogatory and inflamable.

Jonnie, you can kiss your sorry arse goodby son, people on here like an intelligent discussion about various topics, but when someone like you gets all worked up and clambers up on a soapbox and starts waving his arms about to get attention....time to go home.....nothing you have said is valid or true.......maybe you should be a politician....LOL....perhaps you are one......getting laughed at goes with the turf.
Ian.

How is telling everyone they are going to fail an intelligent discussion.
How is telling everyone to find a different career an intelligent discussion.

If you were even 1/10 as intelligent and mature as you claim, you would completely ignore me.
I ignore 90% of the posts that are nothing more than a blind, desperate assault on my character and credibility. It's ridiculous and ignorant. You do not know me well enough to make such judgments and obviously you never will.

So I can only say it again.
If you were the educated patricians you claim to be, you would not even acknowledge my presence.
It's how I deal with about half of you and, and I notice there are some people here with the sense to stay out of the muck.
I will be the bigger person and simply unsubscribe from the post and ruin the little game people such as yourself like playing on forums.
It's beneath me and so are it's participants.