[samu]

we are going to buy a new VMC and at this time two machine are in the race. First one Mori seki Dura vertical 5100, second Okuma genos M-560-V. No experience with this two brand. We only cut aluminium and tolerance are large enough (+-.005" usually) So extra precision, is not a critical point. Here is the pro and con that I see for this two machine, hope you will add some point that i did'nt think.

Mori:- Fanuc control (I'm familiar with fanuc and we have another VMC that is fanuc controlled)
-same taper, same pull stud than our other vmc so toolling is fully inter changeable.
-Midaco pallet changer come with the machine and with the mori waranty(twice the Midaco waranty)
Only 12 000 RPM spindle
spindle motor is half the power of the Okuma.

Okuma: -Faster rapid feed
15 000 rpm spindle
-twice the spindle power than th mori
-big plus spindle come standard
-axis motor more powerfull
-dual column desing supposed to be more rigid and accurate over a C-frame.
-added high presure coolant and auto porobing and tool lenght measurement and still less expensive than the mori without this options
-okuma control(that i know nothing about)
-tooling not fully interchangeable with our other vmc(same taper but not same pull stud)
-Pallet changer must be purchased appart tough machine supposed to be ready to accept midaco pallet changer.


Actually, i tought that the okuma will lead the race, but maybe you can higlight some point that can change evrything.


thank you

[ifixcnc]

Who has better service in your area?

[underthetire]

Ones made in USA/Japan, one is most likely made in Taiwan. There's your price difference. Either is fine, Okuma just hits you REALLY hard down the road for replacement electronics. We have about 10 DV5100/5080's here, no problems whatsoever with them, and with the integral double wound spindle never had a HP shortage. We also have Okuma's, and they have been fine as well.

[samu]

once again, the point goes to Okuma for the service

[ghyman]

The Genos line is a really good introduction to Okuma; I think you will be pleased with the capabilities they offer.
I would talk about positional tolerance / repeatability, but it sounds like that would be overkill with ±.005" (I just installed a line of horizontals that are holding 20 micron position and size tolerance features well above a CpK of 1.67)
I would talk about rigidity / durability, but that also sounds like it would be overkill. (These same machines are slinging around 150lb parts in a 3.5 axis setup, with multiple tables - and still hitting that 20 micron positional tolerance!)
If the difference between Fanuc and Okuma is a concern, I believe (but not 100% certain) that the Genos line has a Fanuc control available as an option. I know some of the higher-end Okumas do, but I'm not positive about the Genos. But... the Okuma control has a very quick learning curve, whether it is straight-up G code, or macro-driven programs. And honestly, having 15+ years of Fanuc experience, and then spending about 3 years with Okuma machines, and then a few months ago working on an Okuma mill with a Fanuc control... the Fanuc actually felt like a major step *down* from Okuma.

[underthetire]

Okuma has about the worst parts service i've ever dealt with, so i will disagree there.

[ifixcnc]

I have found that each machine dealer has good or bad service. What is bad in one area, is not always bad in another. Also even a good dealer can go bad. Its the luck of the draw. Probably directly related to the number of machines sold in that area.

[fordav11]

yeah definitely the area dictates who you get as your service rep.

tooling can be a big factor. for us, we bought 3 Okuma Multus+robot and because it was Capto we had to buy about a million in tooling for the 3 machines (200 tool ATC x3 machines)
ouch. so if you have existing tooling you can use that can save big dollars.

reliability is also another factor. our Okumas (Multus + Macturn) are always breaking down. From other threads here, some people agree they are not all that reliable and some people think they are reliable. It probably depends on where your Okuma was made (our service guy says Okumaa are also made in China... at an Okuma factory but they aren't quite the same as Japanese Okumas ;-)
although our Okumas are Japanese so maybe we just got a few lemons. I personally think they came from China, or some place worse.
We have many Mori's NT's and many many Mori lathes and mills and they are rarely broken-down. Some of the standard lathes/mills have been in service for almost 25 years.
The Okuma LT I work has had every piece of electronics replaced and every major mechanical component either replaced or refurbished. that's at least $100k-$200k
So your mileage may vary depending on several factors.

[stucapco]

If this helps,
To make things clearer, the control has nothing to do with the machine builder. These will be separate entities. I agree area and support will quickly become an issue should you find yourself "down". What I mean is, should there be a major issue you will find yourself dealing with both. I like Mori for VMC, Okumas for turning. Never believe that one guy showing up will fix your problems. In my area we have both available. In my experience I find equally important. Dealing with the controller manufacturer. Fanuc, Yasnac, etc... I have this week dropped $10k on a Fanuc motherboard, unrelated to its Mori Seiki build. Nightmare! I do agree with fordav11, here. Choose wisely!

[underthetire]

If this helps,
To make things clearer, the control has nothing to do with the machine builder. These will be separate entities. I agree area and support will quickly become an issue should you find yourself "down". What I mean is, should there be a major issue you will find yourself dealing with both. I like Mori for VMC, Okumas for turning. Never believe that one guy showing up will fix your problems. In my area we have both available. In my experience I find equally important. Dealing with the controller manufacturer. Fanuc, Yasnac, etc... I have this week dropped $10k on a Fanuc motherboard, unrelated to its Mori Seiki build. Nightmare! I do agree with fordav11, here. Choose wisely!

Well now that's not true, since okuma makes there own proprietary control.

[stucapco]

I stand corrected.

Okuma, has had a policy of "Single Source" philosophy. Along with Mazak and even HAAS (not always). I guess what I meant to say was: Consider the cost assuming an electronic or physical failure. Is recovery in your area feasible or as in my experience, calling in a guy from three states away at 150 bux an hour. Not "there time" but from the time he gets up in the morning, driving (flying time), Three thousand and he's not here yet time (seriously). Sorry if I missed the point.

[fordav11]

The Genos M is really just like any common vertical mill. You could get any brand machine and cut aluminium to +-0.005".
You just need something that is reliable. For the control I'd go with Fanuc no matter what machine it is with one exception.
If you go Okuma get the Okuma control because it is more integrated and you will definitely have less issues. But of course be prepared to spend a lot of time learning things the "Okuma Way".
Also look at the options and get them when you buy the machine not after (which is more costly)

Also regarding the control, if the people operating it are Fanuc people you can save a lot of time and effort getting Fanuc.
It also depends on the people and how skilled they are. Putting button-pushing losers on unreliable machines means you need to have someone there who can solve problems when they crop up. Having skilled people means you can buy a more complex machine as well. So get the operators sorted first.
Our company didn't (they mostly employ button-pushing losers). The people on our Okumas have been on them for some years and still don't have a clue which results in time wasting and scrapped parts on a regular basis ^_^

[sTruGGlebUs]

Have you looked at Makino PS95?

[stucapco]

I'm with fordav11 here. He brings up some very good points which I neglected to mention.

[hacdlux]

we have both, we were considered a mori shop for many years, have had the okuma m560-v 9 months. you have more memory, power, rigidity on the okuma. we have another okuma coming friday

[fordav11]

we have been exclusively Mori since 1990. then around 2004 management bought Okuma and Mazak, company was taken over by bigger company and they bought more multi-function Okumas and Mazaks with robots because they think multi-function full automation is the future. they scraped the bottom of the barrel for the operators. when they didnt find anyone willing they took some losers out of a ditch on the side of the street. our part batches are quite small (meaning they needed skilled people who can progress through many different and varied jobs quickly and efficiently) so this was one of their big mistakes. we have been going down hill since. so much that the company will close this year at the end of June. IMO this is largely due to unreliable equipment, lack of skilled people (or extremely lazy and dumb people), extremely poor management and extreme money wasting (yes a lot of extreme negatives). it's funny that the Moris rarely had problems and all of them are still working well to this day.
management just doesn't realize that its the people that make the company. so get your people sorted out first. The machine does nothing without people to make it go but with the right skilled people it can be a very good experience for the company.

[tea hole]

we are going to buy a new VMC and at this time two machine are in the race. First one Mori seki Dura vertical 5100, second Okuma genos M-560-V. No experience with this two brand. We only cut aluminium and tolerance are large enough (+-.005" usually) So extra precision, is not a critical point. Here is the pro and con that I see for this two machine, hope you will add some point that i did'nt think.

Mori:- Fanuc control (I'm familiar with fanuc and we have another VMC that is fanuc controlled)
-same taper, same pull stud than our other vmc so toolling is fully inter changeable.
-Midaco pallet changer come with the machine and with the mori waranty(twice the Midaco waranty)
Only 12 000 RPM spindle
spindle motor is half the power of the Okuma.

Okuma: -Faster rapid feed
15 000 rpm spindle
-twice the spindle power than th mori
-big plus spindle come standard
-axis motor more powerfull
-dual column desing supposed to be more rigid and accurate over a C-frame.
-added high presure coolant and auto porobing and tool lenght measurement and still less expensive than the mori without this options
-okuma control(that i know nothing about)
-tooling not fully interchangeable with our other vmc(same taper but not same pull stud)
-Pallet changer must be purchased appart tough machine supposed to be ready to accept midaco pallet changer.


Actually, i tought that the okuma will lead the race, but maybe you can higlight some point that can change evrything.


thank you

If the control being the same is important, than in my opinion, you should buy the Mori.
With regards to the rest of the points, the M560 is a machine i'm intimate with; as well as being familiar with and having run other machines like Mori, Kitamura, Mazak, Hardinge, Haas, Tree and others.
I can say without a doubt that the machine is much more rigid than a C frame. I have personally pushed a 1.25" x 7 tap into some 30rc parts in a production part with no issues. We were milling roughly 28 cubes on those parts as well.
I can say that the machine is highly under-priced right now. When it was first released, and when they first showed up on my floor, they sold for the $175k range without HP coolant, probing or a chip conveyor. (augers yes, but chip conveyor from chip pan in back, out, no)
I think someone I know bought one for something like $125 with HP, probe, touch setter and chip conveyor recently.Possibly IMTS. According to some Okuma people i've talked to, this has to do with Okuma pushing to get a larger market share from the likes of Haas/Mori/Others.
The Midaco makes the Mori more attractive, but sounds like you could add it to the Okuma and still be competitive from a pricing standpoint.
I personally believe that tool holders should be specific to a machine, but that's my experience. I hate the thought of transferring issues with spindles from one machine to another, especially in higher RPM spindles, because of tools being used in more than one machine.
I think, pound for pound, the M560 is far and away better, but...
If you are not comfortable on the control, not confident in your local rep, and don't need the precision the Okuma offers, which it sounds like you do not at +/-.005", then the Mori is less undesirable. But the Okuma costs less and will get you better production assuming they both have Midacos. It's a question of if you feel the investment in learning a different control is worth while.

I think if you're unsure, request your local dealer bring you to another shop close by who bought one. Better yet, if it was their first Okuma.
We get people like that all the time.

I see lots of complaints about Okuma reliability and parts and other things here, but I've never experienced that. I do not run Multus/Macturn machines regularly, but I do know that they do not compare to a 3 axis mill in any way shape or form.
The iron of the Genos is manufactured in an Okuma facility in Taiwan from my understanding. The electronics are made and assembled in Japan and mated to the iron from Taiwan. Something to do with nuclear non-proliferation i think. Enough of the machine is made/assembled in Japan to be labeled as "Made in Japan", so whatever the international laws on that are, I don't know, but that's the way it is.
I cannot comment on the Mori's mfg, but I do know the Okuma is not made in China. IF there's anything I know about Japan and China, it's that cooperation is not exactly their strong point, but that's another matter altogether.

These are my thoughts and experiences.

[fordav11]

The Okuma's made in China are sold in the region where cheapness, low quality and unreliable things are the norm (i.e. India/China)