[colton_m]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for opinions and experiences with the following machines:

VF-3 and a VF-3SS (both brand new)

VF-3 $95,445
+ 10,000rpm spindle
+ 24+1 SMTC
+ P-Cool
+ 300psi TSC
+ Thru tool air blast
+ Lighting
+ Front chip auger
+ 750Mb memory
+ HSM
+ Remote jog handle

or

VF-3SS $96,445
(includes 12,000rpm spindle)
(includes 24+1 SMTC)
+ P-Cool
+ 300psi TSC
+ Thru tool air blast
+ Lighting
+ Front chip auger
+ 750Mb memory
+ HSM
+ Remote jog handle

After reading through everything available on the Haas website:

The SS machine ($1000 more) has:
2000rpm faster spindle
400ipm faster rapids
183ipm faster cutting feeds
however it loses 1750lbs of table capacity (50%less)

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this? I remember reading some threads on here before about the SS machines having finish problems. The faster rapids are not a concern for me but extra spindle speed is and an additional $5000 to jump up to 15,000RPM is too much.

What are your thoughts about buying an SS machine specifically for the extra 2000rpm? good idea? bad idea?

Thanks!

[D.D.Machine]

I ordered a vf4ss at the end of last year and I`m more than happy with it,,, the only ***** I have about it is the chip auger system is junk, even the big chips seem to all go back to the tank and not in the hopper, I put a chiptrap back at the tank and every time I have to dump the 30 gal can from the auger I have to go pull the chip trap and dump out the chips that made it back to the tank, I waste at least 5 min out of "EVERY" hour fighting the chips at the tank.

FYI
after 30 years of never using a probe I would NEVER buy a machine with out it. I don`t have the remote and have never needed it or the lighting ,,,, the two standard lights work great. I run all day at 12,000 rpm and if I buy a second one this fall I will go with the 15K spindle.

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for opinions and experiences with the following machines:

VF-3 and a VF-3SS (both brand new)

VF-3 $95,445
+ 10,000rpm spindle
+ 24+1 SMTC
+ P-Cool
+ 300psi TSC
+ Thru tool air blast
+ Lighting
+ Front chip auger
+ 750Mb memory
+ HSM
+ Remote jog handle

or

VF-3SS $96,445
(includes 12,000rpm spindle)
(includes 24+1 SMTC)
+ P-Cool
+ 300psi TSC
+ Thru tool air blast
+ Lighting
+ Front chip auger
+ 750Mb memory
+ HSM
+ Remote jog handle

After reading through everything available on the Haas website:

The SS machine ($1000 more) has:
2000rpm faster spindle
400ipm faster rapids
183ipm faster cutting feeds
however it loses 1750lbs of table capacity (50%less)

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this? I remember reading some threads on here before about the SS machines having finish problems. The faster rapids are not a concern for me but extra spindle speed is and an additional $5000 to jump up to 15,000RPM is too much.

What are your thoughts about buying an SS machine specifically for the extra 2000rpm? good idea? bad idea?

Thanks!

[MAP32968]

I would suggest the VM3. 12K spindle and is has the slower pitch ball screw
plus I like the table

[extanker59]

From D.D.Machine: "FYI after 30 years of never using a probe I would NEVER buy a machine with out it."
Totally agree. Probe has paid for itself many times over.

Chris

[colton_m]

From D.D.Machine: "FYI after 30 years of never using a probe I would NEVER buy a machine with out it."
Totally agree. Probe has paid for itself many times over.

Chris

As an example lets say you probe the center of a boss or bore for a 2nd OP. How accurate is the probe? Has anyone ever checked with an indicator after probing?

.001?, .0005?, 0.0001? I have never used one, just curious. It really is a question of substituting the lighting and remote jog handle for a probe.

Also, Is the tool change speed the same over all the new SMTC's? or are the changers on the SS models quicker?

Thanks guys.

[danh818]

SS machines have faster tool changes than standard machines equipped with SMTCs.
The probe system is far more valuable than lighting or a jog pendant. Seldom do I ever use an indicator with my VF2. I find the spindle probe to be as or more accurate than my favorite Interapid .0005 DTI. And the tool setter is really nice to have for broken tool detection when I run long jobs overnight. It has saved my butt more than once.
I'm pretty sure that all new VF series come with and aux 110v outlet on the side of the electrical panel that is used for the lighting package. It would be very easy and extremely cheap to set up your own additional lighting.

[Kool Parts]

I did the same comparisons when I last bought and went with the VM2. That table layout is so nice and you get the 12000 spindle, max memory, air gun, lighting, high speed look ahead..quite a few other things.
It worked out cheaper that loading up an VF2. Do another build up with the VM3 and see how it shakes out.

Also do not buy without the spindle probe!!

[D.D.Machine]

going from vf3ss to vf4ss is only 3k more ...... same foot print for both machines.

[extanker59]

As an example lets say you probe the center of a boss or bore for a 2nd OP. How accurate is the probe? Has anyone ever checked with an indicator after probing?

.001?, .0005?, 0.0001? I have never used one, just curious. It really is a question of substituting the lighting and remote jog handle for a probe.

Forget the lighting. As others have said you can add your own. As far as the accuracy, I've been concerned enough on several occasions to recheck with a tenth indicator. Got maybe .0001 change in zero. Can also reprobe Z axis and get it to change .0001 between probes so there is a slight variation in the probe. Well within my needs.

edit: Also I've not used my remote jog handle on my VM2 for about a year because it alarms out (I forget the specific alarm) and while it's very nice to have I can do all my jogging from the panel.

Chris

[haastec]

As an example lets say you probe the center of a boss or bore for a 2nd OP. How accurate is the probe? Has anyone ever checked with an indicator after probing?

.001?, .0005?, 0.0001? I have never used one, just curious. It really is a question of substituting the lighting and remote jog handle for a probe.

Also, Is the tool change speed the same over all the new SMTC's? or are the changers on the SS models quicker?

Thanks guys.

The SS machines will have faster spindles, rapids, and tool changer over standard VF machine.
The probe itself is more accurate than the machine is.

going from vf3ss to vf4ss is only 3k more ...... same foot print for both machines.

I agree, has same foot print but the VF-4 has a bigger table and more travel in X; 10" of more travel, I believe.

I also agree with others and advise to get the probe. Yes, it is not required and you can live without it, but I feel that it is one of those purchases that most never regret because it is that useful.

[colton_m]

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.

I had spec'd out the lighting and jog handle as an alternative to the probe.
However, now I'm inclined to agree with you all, I went and saw it work in person, huge time saver.

D.D.Machine, I was originally looking at a VF2 and forced myself to only consider a VF-3 because of the increased travel.
This is a first machine purchase, jumping up to a VF-4 is over budget. That $3000 has to go to tooling but thanks for the suggestion, I did not know the foot print was the same size.

The following package is what I think will suite my needs and budget:

VF-3SS
(includes 12,000rpm spindle)
(includes 24+1 SMTC)
+ P-Cool
+ 300psi TSC
+ Thru tool air blast
+ Front chip auger
+ 750Mb memory
+ HSM
+ Probe

Has anyone done any 3-D surfacing with an SS machine? Were you satisfied? I will definitely be getting the HSM option. I priced out a VM-3, it was out of my budget.

Thanks for the responses!

[Kool Parts]

After a 30hr weekend I have more thoughts on your purchase. First take a look at the VM2..your post reminded me that the other thing that you get is 30 travel :banana: Maybe that will be enough for you.

I did a 32 inch mold that was completely 3d surfaces...32 inches which meant I had to finish 95% of it, slide it a few inches in X, do a reprobe and then finish machine. Came out perfect. I was pleasantly surprised with the finish quality.
Back to my long weekend. The one option I bought with mine was 1000psi TSC. I hate the way it works and it has sat unused after the first month.

What I wished I would have got was the extra augers that lead to the front auger. It is too expensive..but when you make as many chips as I do it would have paid for itself. As mentioned earlier the chip management is terrible. Not enough slant on the bottom sheet metal so the chips hang in the corners and on the flats. Plus..and I don't know how they did it but the coolant flow out of the machine slows to a halt if the auger is not on. Almost seals against the bottom of the auger trough.

I THINK that the extra augers would pull the chips forward to the front auger but I have not seen that in person.
I love the machine but the chips drive me crazy.
Gary

[extanker59]

We have a VF-2SS and a VM2. I am not happy with either one when it comes to surface finish. Don't get me wrong, I am happy overall with both machines and Haas.

But the surface finish just has never been as good as the pictures. Is it my CAM? Maybe. Is it that I'm unwilling to spend the time required to get that finish? Again, maybe. Is it that I'm just not good enough? Probably!

But...when I see a transition mark at the quadrants when simply circle interpolating...well you see my suspicions.

Still, I'd recommend to my management to buy another Haas if we needed more capacity.

Chris

[Matt@RFR]

I have an '07 VF-2ss. I beat the **** out of it every day and it's still running just fine. Below is a 3D part I made a few years ago in 6061, 1/8" 3 flute ball nose at 12k RPM, 150 IPM and .008" stepover with .010" left to remove. Given the course parameters, I think the finish is really good.

Attachment 276002

Attachment 276004

And here is a picture of a 2D side wall finish, 1/2" 3 flute, 12k RPM and 85 IPM.

Attachment 276006

Absolutely get the probe! I use mine every day and can't imagine life with out it.

Also, you can skip the extra memory if you're ok with running directly off the USB drive. That's how I do it and it works well. It will keep up with large 3D programs and HSM at over 400 IPM (not that the machine will actually do 400 IPM, but if you want that, you need to buy something other than a Haas).

[Ydna]

One thing nobody has mentioned is the difference in axis thrust between a standard VF, VF-SS, and VM. It's related to the ballscrew pitch which is different for the different machines...it's worth mentioning since it's the entire basis for why all three have different characteristics, but having said that I think it's also VERY application-specific. You can obviously create very high quality 3d surfaced items with an SS mill, while theoretically the VM should have an easier time doing the same cut.

But again the results seem to indicate it's not as important in the day-to-day work. Accuracy seems to be the same between them, even with a machine that has more coarse screws. IMO if you're pounding the living hell out of the table all the time, the VM or standard VF is a good way to go for some added ballscrew strength. But it's hard to quantify that sort of thing. (it could also be said that a Haas is perhaps not the best in that situation anyway, but that's unrelated)

I think tooling and programming have more to do with the final product than the ballscrews under the able. There's some thing the machines just can't do, but man some nice tooling can supercharge even the most basic CNC mills...

[colton_m]

Ydna,

That makes a lot of sense. The difference between those three machines is also curious, the SS is listed to have more thrust than the regular VF.

Max thrust (according to the has website):

VF3
X: 2550 lbs
Y: 2550 lbs
Z: 4200 lbs

VF3SS
X: 3085 lbs
Y: 3085 lbs
Z: 3923 lbs

VM3
X: 4100 lbs
Y: 4100 lbs
Z: 4100 lbs

Going by this logic the regular VF should be the worst of the bunch. Or this is really all over-thinking, as long as the day-to-day work gets done as you say who cares? I am pretty well set on the SS machine from a value standpoint, the VM is over budget. And a regular VF3 with the same options as the SS is only $1000 cheaper and loses 2000rpm and all the extra rapid / tool change speed.

I remember when I was looking at Haas mills 7 years ago they all listed an option to add linear scales and it was expensive (10-20k). This option is only listed for the VM6 now, what gives?

Thanks.

[Ydna]

hmmm, that's odd...most of the other machine combinations place the standard VF in the middle. That's how it ends up with the VF2/VF2SS/VM2, and same for the minimills.

At the time of this writing, here are the builds for ballscrews...
VM3: 40mm diameter, 6mm pitch
VF3: 40mm diameter, 8mm pitch
VF3SS: 40mm diameter, 12mm pitch

I wonder if Haas increased the servo horsepower for the VF3SS, to push it up past the standard VF3. It's weird since the VF2SS/VF3SS use the same 12mm pitch ballscrews (although the screw diameter is different), yet the VF2SS has half the rated axis torque at 1995-lbs for XY, and yet a VF4SS has the same 3085-lb thrust as the VF3SS with the same 40mm dia x 12mm pitch screws.

I had a list of the motor ratings from several years ago, which showed it being the same for a VF1/2/3/4/5/6/7 (40 taper mills only) but the list could be outdated as of now.

ehh I wouldn't worry about it too much. I agree with you that the VF3SS is a good deal considering the bonus options. The weird thing is up until 2012 the standard VFs came with a much worse spindle (belt driven, ~20% less power available) so it was an easier choice to make; but nowadays the machines are all very similar despite the RPM difference. As of 2012 most of the production vertical mills use the same spindle hardware aside from the motor, even including the TSC drawbar (which allows anyone to upgrade to TSC "in the field") same scenario whether it's a VF, VM, or SS. It doesn't apply to the toolroom mills or minimills though.

[colton_m]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to post an update. The machine has been built, just waiting on delivery. I went with:

VF3-SS
Reinshaw Probing
P-Cool Nozzle
Thru-Spindle Coolant 300psi
Thru-Spindle Air Blast
High Speed Machining
750MB Expanded Memory
Front Chip Auger

At the end of the day it was a toss up between VF-3SS with tooling or a VF-4SS.
I went with the tooling haha, I think it will serve me well for a first machine.

Haas does offer a discount with certain options, it worked out nicely.

The machine was built in 7 days from deposit paid, impressive.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Pics in June.

[haastec]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to post an update. The machine has been built, just waiting on delivery. I went with:

VF3-SS
Reinshaw Probing
P-Cool Nozzle
Thru-Spindle Coolant 300psi
Thru-Spindle Air Blast
High Speed Machining
750MB Expanded Memory
Front Chip Auger

At the end of the day it was a toss up between VF-3SS with tooling or a VF-4SS.
I went with the tooling haha, I think it will serve me well for a first machine.

Haas does offer a discount with certain options, it worked out nicely.

The machine was built in 7 days from deposit paid, impressive.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Pics in June.

Congrats on the new purchase!