[instructor37]

I don't want to see this thread devolve into legalese and get away from discussing the actual machine and problems & fixes,
people should really go talk to a lawyer before making further posts if they want to go that route.
For the moment at least, it seems easier to discuss the problems with fellow owners and see if there are some fixes we can make.

Working with the seller and other owners is a far better solution, because any competent attorney will charge 500.00 for a consultation, and then probably tell you to just return the product for a refund, something you could have done yourself for free.

[GITERDUN]

.

The accordion bellows between the milling turning carriage and the base of the tailstock would collapse and bind. I bought a second one that was shorter and hold them in place with rare earth magnets glued into the plastic hold down plates.
My tailstock was slightly off centered However I noted that it would deflect under load .
I did a setup to measure the deflection:
Attachment 333014
Attachment 333016
I did before and after tests and fabricated a 1/4" thick gib retaining plate
The Gib screws were tightened to 15 Inch Lbs for each test
Attachment 333022
This is the final result after the gib plate was replaced and 50 lb force.
Attachment 333024

One of the compromises of all the 3 in 1 style machines is that they have a wide table for the mill, meaning that the tailstock often cannot reach far enough for drilling in the lathe chuck. The obvious and simple solution is to make the tailstock casting longer on the nose to go over the table and allow the barrel sufficient travel for drilling. As shown in this other import unit.
Attachment 333158
However, the downside is that you lose all of that extension length in your overall distance between centers, reducing a 30" between center machine to a 24" between center capacity. Shopmaster addressed the problem with a clever design making the tailstock like a telescope, allowing the assembly to be advanced 4" and made the barrel travel 6" allowing all the over table drilling functions while retaining the full distance between centers. They also added a nice set of inch/metric scales for that basic depth measurement. Attachment 333160
As far as adjusting the centers, you should always adjust with the gib screws adjusted just tight enough to allow free sliding of the tailstock along the ways and then set the center to center alignment with the lock clamp tightened because whenever you tighten the clamp it will pull the tailstock toward you the amount of clearance that you have on the dovetail. There will always be some compromises because in order for the barrel to move freely, it has to have some clearance in the bore. That clearance will translate to some droop and deflection as the barrel reaches it's full extension.

[Norton_BMW]

One of the compromises of all the 3 in 1 style machines is that they have a wide table for the mill, meaning that the tailstock often cannot reach far enough for drilling in the lathe chuck. The obvious and simple solution is to make the tailstock casting longer on the nose to go over the table and allow the barrel sufficient travel for drilling. As shown in this other import unit.
Attachment 333158
However, the downside is that you lose all of that extension length in your overall distance between centers, reducing a 30" between center machine to a 24" between center capacity. Shopmaster addressed the problem with a clever design making the tailstock like a telescope, allowing the assembly to be advanced 4" and made the barrel travel 6" allowing all the over table drilling functions while retaining the full distance between centers. They also added a nice set of inch/metric scales for that basic depth measurement. Attachment 333160
As far as adjusting the centers, you should always adjust with the gib screws adjusted just tight enough to allow free sliding of the tailstock along the ways and then set the center to center alignment with the lock clamp tightened because whenever you tighten the clamp it will pull the tailstock toward you the amount of clearance that you have on the dovetail. There will always be some compromises because in order for the barrel to move freely, it has to have some clearance in the bore. That clearance will translate to some droop and deflection as the barrel reaches it's full extension.

The problem that I noted was that the Gib is triangular profile and exerts downward force on the plate when the Tailstock cranked in generating force with a center or a drill. This caused the center mounted in the tail-stock deviate up and away from the operator. By making a 1/4" thick steel retaining plate the force caused upward deflection was reduced nearly 60% and the sideways deviation eliminated at 40 Lbs Force

[n1tr0]

The problem that I noted was that the Gib is triangular profile and exerts downward force on the plate when the Tailstock cranked in generating force with a center or a drill. This caused the center mounted in the tail-stock deviate up and away from the operator. By making a 1/4" thick steel retaining plate the force caused upward deflection was reduced nearly 60% and the sideways deviation eliminated at 40 Lbs Force

Could you post a picture of your fix/plate? The mill portion has been so much trouble, I haven't even started on the lathe bit.
Thanks

[Norton_BMW]

Could you post a picture of your fix/plate? The mill portion has been so much trouble, I haven't even started on the lathe bit.
Thanks

original


modifications

Attachment 333170
Attachment 333172
Attachment 333174

[BIGBLOCK1965]

original


modifications

Attachment 333170
Attachment 333172
Attachment 333174

Actually the metal retainer plate is only there to prevent the gib from falling out when you remove the tailstock from the machine. The gib should stay in place with the plate removed. Most likely the problem was the dimples drilled into the gib were too shallow, and as the lock was tightened, it forced the gib to slide down the dovetail until it contacted the plate , forcing the tailstock to ride upwards. This is the same design as the older tailstocks which had no retainer plate. Probably at the factory they clamp the gib in place then run a drill through the casting to make a dimple in the gib which is then contacted by the cone point set screw. However if the dimple is not deep enough or there is any misalignment then the screw forces the gib downwards. On all my machines I set the gib up and used an end mill to mill the dimple deeper to accept the end of a dog point set screw. In this way, the gib is retained and cannot move vertically when pressure is applied. Much like the lower diagram on the right, but with a dog point, which gives you a much larger contact area than a cone point.

[Norton_BMW]

Actually the metal retainer plate is only there to prevent the gib from falling out when you remove the tailstock from the machine. The gib should stay in place with the plate removed. Most likely the problem was the dimples drilled into the gib were too shallow, and as the lock was tightened, it forced the gib to slide down the dovetail until it contacted the plate , forcing the tailstock to ride upwards. This is the same design as the older tailstocks which had no retainer plate. Probably at the factory they clamp the gib in place then run a drill through the casting to make a dimple in the gib which is then contacted by the cone point set screw. However if the dimple is not deep enough or there is any misalignment then the screw forces the gib downwards. On all my machines I set the gib up and used an end mill to mill the dimple deeper to accept the end of a dog point set screw. In this way, the gib is retained and cannot move vertically when pressure is applied. Much like the lower diagram on the right, but with a dog point, which gives you a much larger contact area than a cone point.

I tried doing deeper holes at first. the improvement was marginal when I tested it again.
Part of the reason was the very poor quality screws supplied with the machine that were undersized and an incomplete thread profile that had rounded crests.
Attachment 333204
The top screw is typical of what is supplied with the MillTurn
The bottom is a typical Taiwanese quality product.

btw. The diagram was Illustrative only as the cone point screw was a standard CAD file block and merely illustrative of the repair. I always use flat top cone point screws for such load holding that has both end and side forces. I drill the holes so that there is a relief for the flat top and drill the hole bottom with the same cone angle as the screws I use and then lap them in with valve grinding compound.

It took the final configuration before I achieved 0.000" side deflection at 50# load.

Since you are aware of this being a problem on previous versions of the Shopmaster machines, I am curious as to why feedback from users like you was not part of the continuous improvement process that companies operating under the ISO9001 banner strive to achieve?

[BIGBLOCK1965]

I tried doing deeper holes at first. the improvement was marginal when I tested it again.
Part of the reason was the very poor quality screws supplied with the machine that were undersized and an incomplete thread profile that had rounded crests.
Attachment 333204
The top screw is typical of what is supplied with the MillTurn
The bottom is a typical Taiwanese quality product.
btw. The diagram was Illustrative only as the cone point screw was a standard CAD file block and merely illustrative of the repair. I always use flat top cone point screws for such load holding that has both end and side forces. I drill the holes so that there is a relief for the flat top and drill the hole bottom with the same cone angle as the screws I use and then lap them in with valve grinding compound.
It took the final configuration before I achieved 0.000" side deflection at 50# load.
Since you are aware of this being a problem on previous versions of the Shopmaster machines, I am curious as to why feedback from users like you was not part of the continuous improvement process that companies strive to achieve?

Norton-
Actually it was never a problem on any of my machines. I only made the modification for my own satisfaction. I don't recall if I ever made any comment to Shoptask about my idea or not, and I don't recall anyone posting anything here either. On the old white machines from the 90's they used a flat gib which worked fine. But I used to do a lot of mill work on Chevy heads which on the old white machine required you to take the tailstock off the bed. The gib strip would always fall out on the floor, and then you had to loosen the adjuster screws and re-adjust the gibs every time you replaced the tailstock. The later machines with the triangular gib were better, and in my case, I made 2 small changes- 1. I ground a bevel on the end of the gib which faced the lathe spindle and 2. I used some wire to hold the gib in place when the tailstock was removed. Then when I replaced it, the bevel gave me just enough clearance to easily slide the tailstock back in place without having to re-adjust the gib screws. The Mill Turn was re-designed with a longer bed, so I have not found it necessary to remove the tailstock for any of my projects.
As far as the screws go, these are Chinese machines, and they probably buy the fasteners in big boxes of 1000 or more at a time. I have found a few dodgy ones over the years, but I can't imagine any company regardless of price examining every nut and bolt under a magnifying glass before they put it on the machine.

[Norton_BMW]

Norton-
Actually it was never a problem on any of my machines. I only made the modification for my own satisfaction. I don't recall if I ever made any comment to Shoptask about my idea or not, and I don't recall anyone posting anything here either. On the old white machines from the 90's they used a flat gib which worked fine. But I used to do a lot of mill work on Chevy heads which on the old white machine required you to take the tailstock off the bed. The gib strip would always fall out on the floor, and then you had to loosen the adjuster screws and re-adjust the gibs every time you replaced the tailstock. The later machines with the triangular gib were better, and in my case, I made 2 small changes- 1. I ground a bevel on the end of the gib which faced the lathe spindle and 2. I used some wire to hold the gib in place when the tailstock was removed. Then when I replaced it, the bevel gave me just enough clearance to easily slide the tailstock back in place without having to re-adjust the gib screws. The Mill Turn was re-designed with a longer bed, so I have not found it necessary to remove the tailstock for any of my projects.
As far as the screws go, these are Chinese machines, and they probably buy the fasteners in big boxes of 1000 or more at a time. I have found a few dodgy ones over the years, but I can't imagine any company regardless of price examining every nut and bolt under a magnifying glass before they put it on the machine.

I have not done a statistical count of the number of bad screws encountered, but I would guestimate that upwards of +20% should have never made it into the machine.

I am not just talking about set screws but many of the attachment bolts were dodgy as well which compounded the poor drilling and tapping I had documented earlier.
Attachment 333218

Left typical of attachment socket head cap screws on the Millturn and the right from a box of Taiwanese quality.

Monitoring shipments from sub suppliers is a critical element of any ISO program. Yes defective parts get through, but not in the sheer numbers that I have encountered.

Corrective and Preventive Action - www.the9000Store

Just a quick visual inspection and manual operation of the machine when it arrived would suggest that there was no ISO9001 program applied to the machine either before it was crated and shipped or during the various stages of the manufacturing process from the receipt of parts from Suppliers to any inspection/witness/hold points in the assembly process.

[GITERDUN]

I have not done a statistical count of the number of bad screws encountered, but I would guestimate that upwards of +20% should have never made it into the machine.
Attachment 333218

DUDE- are you serious? You are losing sleep over the difference between those 2 bolts? So- spend 50.00 and replace every bolt on the machine with American ones. You are not going to find aero-space engineering and quality in a Chinese machine.
BTW- I had a friend who owned a Norton and he put more miles on it pushing it down the road than riding, and despite all the "German engineering", BMW recently recalled 200,000 cars for faulty brakes.

[Norton_BMW]

DUDE- are you serious? You are losing sleep over the difference between those 2 bolts? So- spend 50.00 and replace every bolt on the machine with American ones. You are not going to find aero-space engineering and quality in a Chinese machine.
BTW- I had a friend who owned a Norton and he put more miles on it pushing it down the road than riding, and despite all the "German engineering", BMW recently recalled 200,000 cars for faulty brakes.

It clear that you are dragging this post off topic discussing Norton's and BMW's, to what end? To create an insult fest where post will get deleted?

The example screws both holding and set type I showed are both Chinese, the inferior quality ones on the Millturn and the better quality from Taiwan. It is just further illustration of the complete lack of ISO9001 quality control in the manufacture of the MillTurn machines. Every machine is the sum of the quality of all the parts and fabrication methods used.
Here are some example photos.

Attachment 333228
too big a drill used for the tap size.
Attachment 333230
holes not tapped straight.
Attachment 333236
double drilled and tapped holes to make the ball screws housings fit.

Regardless of where you are buying something from you expect a certain level of quality. Buying from a manufacturer, even in China, that boasts about an ISO9001 quality program should instill a level of confidence. I can find no evidence that any such quality checks were done on my MillTurn machine before leaving the factory, there are others who are making the same observation.. Since you are obviously happy with your machine then these posts should be none of your concern and are intended for all those who have a MillTurn and have yet to get the advertised performance out of the machine.

[GITERDUN]

It clear that you are dragging this post off topic discussing Norton's and BMW's, to what end?
The example screws both holding and set type I showed are both Chinese inferior quality ones and the better quality from Taiwan.

Not off topic- you talk about quality certifications and compare 2 different bolts, so I just posted an example of 2 supposedly well certified products with serious quality problems. Frankly, nothing in any of your pictures could be certified as a defect beyond your word for it. A tapered tap set cockeyed in a hole, and bolts of unknown origin, a mill casting supposedly machined, but could be just belt sanding away the paint. If those 2 bolts are 6 mm like the tap, then the torque rating would be in the range of 4 Ft/Lbs for a low grade bolt to 7 Ft/Lbs for a grade 8 bolt. I would bet that either of them would easily take the rated torque with no problem and would have to be torqued to 3-4 times their rating before they would strip or break, so either would be fully sufficient to perform their required task, making the whole thing a non issue.

[jdclark]

Not off topic- you talk about quality certifications and compare 2 different bolts, so I just posted an example of 2 supposedly well certified products with serious quality problems. Frankly, nothing in any of your pictures could be certified as a defect beyond your word for it. A tapered tap set cockeyed in a hole, and bolts of unknown origin, a mill casting supposedly machined, but could be just belt sanding away the paint. If those 2 bolts are 6 mm like the tap, then the torque rating would be in the range of 4 Ft/Lbs for a low grade bolt to 7 Ft/Lbs for a grade 8 bolt. I would bet that either of them would easily take the rated torque with no problem and would have to be torqued to 3-4 times their rating before they would strip or break, so either would be fully sufficient to perform their required task, making the whole thing a non issue.

There seems to be a rather high expectation from some people when buying CNC machines at the very bottom of the price spectrum. Just to put things in perspective, following is a post from someone who spent 3-4 times the cost of a Shopmaster on a professional grade machine and his experience.
Attachment 333262

"I purchased a 4 Axis CNC mill with servo drives, 24"x30"x10" working envelope, 4 Axis PC Controller and a 7.5kW water cooled spindle from China last year. This is the second Chinese machine I imported with the first one being a 130W laser with a 4'x3' table. The laser purchase was a much better experience but there still were some unpleasant similarities.

I have owned and operated a 2000W Cincinnati laser for the past 9 years and I have my Engineering degree. I investigated at least 30 different companies for six months before short listing five companies ( I sent hundreds of emails). From the five companies I finally chose this one. They weren't the best price but they offered that I could hold back $3000 for three months after the machine was delivered. That way I could verify the quality of the machine and if there were any problems I would still have some leverage.

They took a long time to build the machine but they did email me pictures of the machine's progress. The financing worked as follows: first I made a down payment, then I was to make another payment before the machine shipped and then I was to pay the final $3000 three months after receiving the machine. The company told me that they spent more on the machine then expected so asked that I pay $500 more before the machine shipped and $2500 after the three months. I agreed to this because it appeared that they were really trying.

The machine finally shipped after 6 months of waiting (3 months past their deadline). Since I had already imported the laser I knew the drill with getting the machine into Canada. The most important document I required was an original copy of the bill of lading. The document is usually couriered after the machine is shipped. The machine takes a couple of weeks to make the commute across the ocean and everything was going fine. I had received email copied versions of the documents so that the machine could clear customs upon arrival but I didn't receive an original copy of the bill of lading. I emailed the sales person and he ignored me for some time until the machine had arrived and was sitting in a bonded warehouse. The machine had five free days to sit in the warehouse just in case the paperwork takes a little bit of time to complete. The machine cleared customs without any problem but the freight forwarder would not release the machine yet because I had not sent them an original copy of the bill of lading (OBL). Once the machine was in the warehouse they told me that they would not send the OBL until I had paid for the machine in full and the salesperson wanted the money in their personal account and sent by Western Union. The red flags started to fly but I knew they had me over a barrel so I agreed to pay them all the funds but I would put the last payment into the same account as the last two payments. The salesperson didn't like this but I didn't want to have the company come back to me and tell me that I had not payed for the machine.

I made the payment immediately but then the bank screwed up the paperwork so that had to be fixed before the money would pass through. The paperwork was fixed before the money left Canada. Then I had to wait the usual three days for the money to get into the Chinese bank. Where the money goes for three days is beyond my understanding of international banking but I guarantee you that somebody is making a lot of money for doing nothing. They then told me that they never received the money and again asked me again to make the payment through Western Union and into his personal bank account. I didn't have any money left to give him so I had to wait. Meanwhile the machine was sitting in the warehouse accumulating rent ($80 per day). I had my bank manager try to call the Chinese bank but they just hung up. Then I had her call the company itself to tell them that we had made the payment but that didn't help. I begged and pleaded for the documents but they would not send them. Finally, after more than a week the sales person released the documents and sent them by 3-5 day courier to me. I then had to wait for the documents and overnight them across the country because the freight forwarder was in Ontario and I was in BC. In the end the sales person told me that is was just the way business is. We are not rich people and the stress that it caused but huge. There were other unpleasantries with the whole shipping affair like the warehouse didn't have the equipment to move the machine properly (had to slide it onto the flat deck), didn't speak English, damaged the crate and treated me like garbage but that is another story.

I was finally able to pick up the machine and hired riggers to move it into my shop (another $1000). The crate was so poorly constructed that I was able to pull it apart with my hands. Now I was really nervous about the machine.

Here are the problems so far:

- They had shipped the machine resting on its feet instead of dunnage so the bolts blew through the cast leveling bases. It was an easy fix but still took many hours.
- The machine did not show up with any useful documentation.
- One connector was so corroded that the feedback from the servo didn't work
- The quality of their sheet metal work is on par to a beginners grade 9 high school class
- They made the windows from 1/16" Acrylic that broke with a slight push, they are now 1/4" polycarbonate
- They never finished running the wires properly for the tool zeroing system nor the tubing for the lubrication system
- The controller cabinet is too small to hold the computer they supplied
- There is over spray all over the controller cabinet from touch-ups
- One broken pressure gauge
- They spray painted the entire 4th axis before shipping and I mean everything: linear guides and chuck etc
- The tail stock for the 4th axis is a joke. They must have used bearings from an 1940's truck that had never been maintained. It is useless.
- The machine cannot be levelled to better than 0.01" over a foot because the frame appears to be a little tweaked
- Many loose fittings and poor quality fasteners.
- The sliding doors didn't work but do now after 4 hours of persuasion
- The machine was supposed to be supplied with two cooling systems: a mist and a flood. They gave me an aquarium pump and no reservoir. The coolant return is supposed to be a path along the floor because there is just a hole
- I am sure there are many more problems to follow

I finally was able to power up the machine and I checked the run-out and it was off by 0.03" over the entire cutting surface. I still may be able to fix this with a little tweaking and having the machine resurface the table.

Now, for the worst news: the spindle won't release the tool holder anymore. I have a switch that sends air to the spindle to release the tool holder and it worked at first but then I noticed that the air fittings leaked on top of the spindle. I tightened the fittings (they were originally finger tight) and now the spindle will not release the holder. I asked them for help and after a week of emails they told me I need to ship the spindle back to China (at my expense) because it is broken. So much for having a warranty. Unfortunately, I had the audacity to ask them that if I sent the spindle back would they hold it for ransom (I don't trust them anymore) to which they responded: "please do not send the spindle to our factory address now. Because it is hard to communicate and supply support although we are trying best ." In other words, I am on my own and they don't want to communicate with me anymore. Now I am going to have to try and fix the spindle myself which I don't think is going to end well. That means I need to spend another $3k-$5k for another spindle.
Total investment so far nearing 25K."

[Norton_BMW]

When I was verifying my milling head accuracy and trying to tram the milI was getting inconsistent and non-repeatable results using the mill table as the base for my Starrett flex clamp and Fowler Probe.

I ended up loosening the gibs in the mill table and discovered that the table had a rock to it on the horizontal plane. It was obviously not final ground and had a rough finish to it. After I disassembled everything I measured the bearing surface with the oil groove height to the main lathe ways and here are the measurements:
Headstock sideTailstock sideT-H
Back 3.53713.5294-0.0077
Front 3.53763.5335-0.0041
F-B 0.00050.0041

Attachment 333244

This two point of contact between the milling/lathe carriage and milling table was verified using dykem.
Attachment 333246
Attachment 333250

During the examination there were several other items noted:
There are only three gib screws for the milling table and at the end of the advertised travel only two are active.
Attachment 333252
It was noted that the gib was bent and been hammered on at the factory for some reason.
One other item of note was the recess dimples in both gibs did not line up with the gib screws and the screws were engaging the side of the countersunk hole.
Attachment 333254
Attachment 333256

After a thorough review of the lathe milling carriage It could not be merely scraped back into being true and required precision milling before being scraped.
Attention had to be paid to ensure that none of the ball nut mounting blocks were offset causing a misalignment as after all the machining and scraping the milling table surface would be closer to the lathe bed ways.
Attachment 333258
This is the lathe carriage and the Milling Table after grinding and scraping.

I have had to make new gibs and will be adding extra gib screws on 32.5 mm centers to even out the load and eliminate the two gib screw scenario at the travel limits.
Attachment 333260

One thing else I have noted is that the oil channel gets exposed when the milling table is to the front and I am sealing it off with a liquid steel epoxy to prevent dust and chips from getting in there. I am also installing henning SK series wipers there to protect the area.
Attachment 333264
It would appear that the factory did not think about the gib width when casting the lathe carriage, The ways supporting the milling table on the head stock side is 27mm wide while the tailstock side is only 19mm. This would suggest that over time the tailstock side will wear faster causing a slight tilt to the table.

On the subject of oiling other than the load bearing ways on the lathe carriage having oil channels, there are no clear paths for the oil to reach the gib or opposite beveled surfaces.
I am looking at that now.

[Norton_BMW]

HI find it very interesting that instead of discussing technical details that posters seem to come out of the woodwork as if on cue to attack posters and question their integrity?
It appears that this is not new and has happened in the past with previous shopmaster/shoptask machines.

https://en.industryarena.com/forum/s...ts--51857.html

Similar actors some with the same names and others with new profiles but wheedling the same old tunes?

[Norton_BMW]

Thanks, yes the world looks a lot different without all that baggage hanging over me. One thing is so puzzling though, you say in your original post that you were unhappy with the machine even before it was uncrated. It seems that at that moment you should have just nailed the top back on the crate and shipped it back. The few dollars it might have cost for freight sure would have been less painful than all these months of disassembly and anguish. Shopmaster used to have a 1 year return policy, so even after 8 months it seems that you could still return it.That is why I thought perhaps you were having a similar personal issue like I had.

In hindsight I should have packed it up right away in early NOV 2015. But as another poster on here N1tr0 noted, the return policy mandated that you had to keep the machine for a full year. Initially Shopmaster/Shoptask were very accommodating, replacing the belt that had a hole drilled in it from the factory that was making the z axis skip, replacing/fixing other defective parts like the R8 spindle and drawbar milling motor frame mount amongst other things. When it became obvious that the machine was going to need some serious machining/grinding to be brought back true Shopmaster was accommodating asking me to get prices etc... The machine was way outside tolerance in most of the measurable parameters it was advertised as meeting. In reality there is only one main shop in the south that specializes in doing repairs and refurbishment to machine tools like this with any accuracy. I was initially quoted $5000.00 but we eventually agreed to do a barter and I would repair one of his motorcycle pieces ( for which I had a significant out of pocket cost) in return for the grinding /scraping if he could let it sit at his shop until his people were between major jobs. I did not get the milling carriage/bridge and the lathe carriage and tail stock back until early May 2016. Hare are photos taken when I got them back.

I might add that the machine was never powered up and only in the past few months was the computer powered up and discovered to have boot errors and corrupted files. Only the X and Y Steppers have been run and even at that the x axis ballscrew shaft was 1.14 mm lower on the tailstock side than at the headstock end.The Steppers are now discovered to be very weak and have half of the power they were alleged to have.

Shopmaster refuses to pay for any repairs and the last offer is to send it back, at my cost (500 to 600 dollars) so they can bring it to a local technical school for evaluation. I do not even have it fully back together yet. I have offered several times to have a machine tool professional, who is mutually agreed to, come and inspect the machine an my premises to which Shopmaster/Shoptask have refused.

If Shopmaster were to pay for the return freight plus all my out of pocket costs to date they were welcome to have it back, I would have chalked the whole episode up to experience. But as that scenario is certainly not happening as it appears that there are quite a few others out there like me in the same boat who probably deserve the same treatment.

Given my sweat and financial equity tied up in the machine, the only recourse is to replace/repair the inferior/defective components and manufacturing defects on the machine ( most of the way grinding/scraping and major repairs have been done, plus a new milling spindle and industrial computer ordered ) and try and use it. While doing so, document all the things that are being done to the machine to correct the obvious lack of quality control at the factory so that others may benefit from my learning curve,

[Norton_BMW]

Well, I seriously doubt that anyone would pay you 5000.00 for repairs on a 6000.00 machine. I have had big pieces blanchard ground for less than 300.00, so it looks like you got taken to the cleaners on that deal. And there is absolutely no way that I would have undertaken that expense without written authorization from them to cover the costs. Even if you had just nailed the crate together and waited a year, you would be tons of work and 5000.00 better off right now. But, yours is not an uncommon story, I know guys who have spent 50-60K restoring an old car only to find out that it's only work 20K when it's all finished

In all fairness it needed much more than being blanchard ground, the shop I brought it to rebuilds Blanchard style grinding machines, both sides of the milling bridge carriage were out of true and crudely machined with waves under the varying thickness of paint. All the ways and tailstock needed grinding and scraping to get back to the just the advertised specs. Perhaps the old car (or old bike) analogy is appropriate, as it costs money to make a silk purse out of a sows ear and underneath its still a sows ear. I would say that in the barter I did I was probably out about $1800.00. plus two return trips to Houston. I never would have done it for $5G.

The MillTurn may be a great idea on paper, but as Admiral Rickover was fond of saying "The devil is in the details" and there was obviously no attention to detail paid at the factory in assembling the machine on items as simple as drilling and tapping holes, no cnc used , no templates, no quality. Shopmaster is clearly not holding the factory to any quality standard, I have friends in Singapore who deal with Chinese factories all the time and get the quality they specify, so its a mystery why Shopmaster does not, as in appears that the only diligent QA/QC activities that get conducted on the MillTurn Machines are by the Buyer after uncrating. Is this purely accidental or the actual business model?

How many onetime only customers have Shopmaster lost forever? How many would they have made repeat customers if the machines were $300 to $500 more to cover the cost of regularly inspecting the manufacturing process at the factory?

There are a few alleged repeat customers who post here, reporting world class customer service and tout the high quality of these machines but based on the experiences of myself and 5 other Millturn owners I have corresponded with, I find that to be statistically improbable as the 6 machines in the group I am referring to have over 2/3rds of the same problems and only 1/3rd unique issues.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

I watched the whole Tormach video you posted and while it sucks that the guy got a bit of a lemon I shouldn't have to take both a financial penalty and the loss of work/time for every defect that should have been sorted before the machine was shipped.

Nitro-Norton,
Well it's clear you did not take 30 seconds to read the warranty before you bought the machine, and now you want to change the terms to suit you. The Shopmaster warranty is written in plain terms so even less educated folks could easily understand it, unlike other companies that use a ton of lawyer language. I am attaching copies of the warranties of the other major players in the Chinese tool business for your comparison. Anyone can see that had you chosen one of these other brands, your coverage would have been even more restrictive.

AutoMate CNC Machine Tool Warranty Agreement
Detroit Machine Tools LIMITED WARRANTY CERTIFICATE Covering AutoMate CNC and Talon CNC Equipment Effective August, 1, 2015 Detroit Machine Tools. (“DetroitMT” or “Manufacturer”) provides a limited warranty to all new mills, turning centers and rotary machines (collectively, “CNC Machines”) and its components (except those listed below under Limits and Exclusions of Warranty) (“Components”) that are manufactured by DetroitMT and sold by DetroitMT under the AutoMate CNC and Talon CNC brands or its authorized distributors as set forth in this Certificate. The warranty set forth in this Certificate is a limited warranty and it is the only warranty by Manufacturer and is subject to the terms and conditions of this Certificate.
Limited Warranty Coverage
Each CNC Machine and its Components (collectively, “CNC Products”) are warranted by Manufacturer against defects in material and workmanship.
This warranty is provided only to the final purchaser and end-user of the CNC Machine (a “Customer”). The period of this limited warranty is one (1) year for AutoMate CNC equipment, one (1) year, for Talon CNC equipment, and eighteen (18) months for Z-MaT equipment. The warranty period commences on the date the CNC Machine is delivered to the Customer’s facility. Customer may purchase an extension of the warranty period from DMT or an authorized DMT distributor (a “Warranty Extension”).
Mechanical and Non-CNC Control Related Electrical Components
Detroit Machine Tool's customer contact and support structure has been tested in over
25 years of real-world experience. DMT customer support relies on an internet-based sales and support process. This contact includes efficient text and image transfer, as well as Skype ® and telephone support. This process enables DMT to provide high value equipment and services at reasonable prices. DMT staff will diagnose problems
over the phone and help owners determine a course of action for the owner. It is helpful when the owner has the ability and experience in mechanical and electrical repair, in addition to knowing how to operate safely while working with machine tools. Any labor cost necessary to repair a machine or part failure due to normal wear, workmanship, or through normal use during the warranty period is the responsibility of the machine owner. DetroitMT has staff technicians available for on-site visits and also has set up on-site service agreements with qualified repair technicians around the USA.
Detroit Machine Tools will repair or replace, at the discretion of the Manufacturer, parts or components that are defective in material or workmanship. Ground shipping rates to ship the replacement part or component will be paid by Detroit Machine Tools. Any extra expense associated with an expedited form of shipping that is requested by the owner will be the responsibility of the owner. Materials alleged to be defective shall be returned to Detroit Machine Tools, at the request of DMT, freight prepaid.
Manufacturer’s sole liability, and customer’s exclusive remedy, with respect to any and all DetroitMT products shall be limited to repairing or replacing, at the discretion of manufacturer, the defective DetroitMT product under this warranty.
Disclaimer of Warranty
This warranty is manufacturer’s sole and exclusive warranty and is in lieu of all other warranties of whatever kind or nature, express or implied, written or oral, including, but not limited to, any implied warranty of merchantability, implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, or other warranty of quality or performance or non-infringement. All such other warranties of whatever kind are hereby disclaimed by manufacturer and waived by customer.
Limits and Exclusions of Warranty
Components subject to wear during normal use and over time, including, but not limited to, paint, window/shield finish and condition, light bulbs, seals, chip removal system, etc., are excluded from this warranty. Manufacturer’s specified maintenance
procedures must be adhered to and recorded in order to maintain this warranty. This warranty is void if Manufacturer determines that (i) any DetroitMT Product was subjected to mishandling, misuse, abuse, neglect, accident, improper installation, improper maintenance, improper storage, or improper operation or application, (ii) any DetroitMT Product was improperly repaired or serviced by Customer, an unauthorized service technician, or other unauthorized person, (iii) Customer or any person makes or attempts to make any modification to any DetroitMT Product without the prior written authorization of Manufacturer, and/or (iv) any DetroitMT Product was used for any non- intended use. This warranty does not cover damage or defect due to an external influence or matters beyond the reasonable control of Manufacturer, including, but not limited to, electrical current conditions, theft, vandalism, fire, weather condition (such as rain, flood, wind, lightning, or earthquake), or acts of war or terrorism.
Without limiting the generality of any of the exclusions or limitations described in this Certificate, this warranty does not include any warranty that any DetroitMT Product will meet any person’s production specifications or other requirements or that operation of any DetroitMT Product will be uninterrupted or error-free. Manufacturer assumes no responsibility with respect to the use of any DetroitMT Product by any person, and Manufacturer shall not incur any liability to any person for any failure in design, production, operation, performance or otherwise of any DetroitMT Product other than repair or replacement of same as set forth in this warranty above.
Limitation of Liability and Damages
Manufacturer will not be liable to customer or any other person for any compensatory, incidental, consequential, punitive, special, or other damage or claim, whether in an action in contract, tort, or other legal or equitable theory, arising out of or related to any DetroitMT product, other products or services provided by manufacturer or an authorized distributor, service technician or other authorized representative of manufacturer(collectively, “authorized representative”), or the failure of parts or products made by using any DetroitMT product, even if manufacturer or any authorized representative hasb een advised of the possibility of such damages, which damage or claim includes, but isn ot limited to, loss of profits, lost data, lost products, loss of revenue, loss of use, cost ofd owntime, business good will, any damage to equipment, premises or other property of any person, and any damage that may be caused by a malfunction of any DetroitMT product. All such damages and claims are disclaimed by manufacturer and waived by customer. Manufacturer’s sole liability, and customer’s exclusive remedy, for damage sand claims for any cause whatsoever shall be limited to repair or replacement, at the discretion of manufacturer, of the defective DetroitMT product as provided in this warranty.
Customer has accepted the limitations and restrictions set forth in this Certificate, including, but not limited to, the restriction on its right to recover damages, as part of its bargain with Manufacturer or its Authorized Representative. Customer realizes and acknowledges that the price of the DetroitMT Products would be higher if Manufacturer were required to be responsible for damages and claims beyond the scope of this warranty.
Entire Agreement
This Certificate supersedes any and all other agreements, promises, representations or warranties, either oral or in writing, between the parties or by Manufacturer with respect to subject matter of this Certificate, and contains all of the covenants and agreements between the parties or by Manufacturer with respect to such subject matter.
Manufacturer hereby expressly rejects any other agreements, promises, and representations or warranties, either oral or in writing, that are in addition to or inconsistent with any term or condition of this Certificate. No term or condition set forth in this Certificate may be modified or amended unless by a written agreement signed by both Manufacturer and Customer. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Manufacturer will honor a Warranty Extension only to the extent that it extends the applicable warranty period.
Transferability
This warranty is transferable from the original Customer to another party if the CNC Machine is sold via private sale before the end of the warranty period, provided that written notice thereof is provided to Manufacturer and this warranty is not void at the time of transfer. The transferee of this warranty will be subject to all terms and conditions of this Certificate.
Miscellaneous
This warranty shall be governed by the laws of the State of Michigan without application of rules on conflicts of laws. Any and all disputes arising from this warranty shall be resolved in a court of competent jurisdiction located in Washtenaw County, Michigan. Any term or provision of this Certificate that is invalid or unenforceable in any situation in any jurisdiction shall not affect the validity or enforceability of the remaining terms and provisions hereof or the validity or enforceability of the offending term or provision in any other situation or in any other jurisdiction.



[COLOR="#00FFFF"]TORMACH PRODUCT TERMS & CONDITIONS
Quotations
All sales by Tormach Inc. ("Tormach") are made subject to the following terms and conditions. Tormach expressly rejects any different or additional terms or conditions contained in any documents submitted by Buyer. Tormach’s provision of credit, acceptance of any purchase order and/or sale of any goods are expressly made conditional on Buyer’s assent to these terms and conditions. All orders by Buyer are accepted only upon issuance of Tormach’s sales order acknowledgement. Stenographic, software and clerical errors are subject to correction.
Delivery & Shipments
Delivery dates are approximate. Tormach shall not be responsible for non-shipment of goods or delays in delivery or performance due to causes beyond its reasonable control, including, but not limited to, acts of God; acts of Buyer; strikes or other labor disturbances; Tormach’s inability to obtain, or material increases in the cost of, fuel, raw materials or parts; delays in transportation; repairs to equipment; fires; or accidents. Acceptance of goods upon delivery shall constitute a waiver by Buyer of any claim for damages on account of non-shipment or delays in delivery or performance.
All deliveries are F.O.B. Tormach’s shipping facility, via UPS, USPS and/or freight prepaid. If shipped freight prepaid, the charge for freight will be added to the invoice. Neither freight charges nor tax are subject to any discount. Risk of loss or damage in transit shall be borne by Buyer, and claims shall be made directly with the carrier. At the time of purchase Buyer may arrange to pick up goods at Tormach’s shipping facility. In this case Buyer agrees to schedule and pickup goods within 10 days after the date Buyer is notified of the availability of goods. If Buyer fails to pick up goods within 10 days after notification of availability Tormach reserves the right to cancel the order and refund the purchase price, less a restocking fee.
Receipt of Goods
Do not sign the delivery receipt until: 1) The freight has been landed (to the ground), and 2) The crate(s) have been carefully inspected for damage.
Inspect the crate(s) thoroughly – walk around each piece. Note any damage to the crate(s) on the delivery receipt before signing it. Give as much detail as possible. If the extent of the damage is unknown, note damage as much as possible and also note: “subject to further inspection”. Note any shortages: If the delivery receipt calls for 2 pieces and only one is received, note “Short 1 piece” on the delivery receipt. Advise Tormach if the shipment has been damaged or if there is a shortage. Taking pictures of the crate or packaging is also helpful if there is damage.
It is Buyers responsibility to refuse a shipment if there is extensive damage to shipping crates or packaging or if they are unsafe to move. The carrier will then bring the shipment back to their terminal and contact Tormach for disposition. When refusing a shipment it is preferable to not sign for delivery. If the carrier insists on a signature, write “shipment damaged and refused” on the delivery receipt and then sign.
Taxes
All tax, Custom duties and any other fees imposed by federal, state, county or municipal authority upon seller’s transfer and delivery of merchandise hereunder shall be paid by Buyer.
Default in Payment
All orders and shipments are subject to approval. Tormach may at any time refuse to make shipment or delivery if Buyer fails to fulfill the terms and conditions of payment. In the event Buyer fails to make payment on any contract between Buyer or any of its affiliates and Tormach in accordance with the terms of such contract, Tormach may, at its option and in addition to all other remedies available to it: (a) defer shipments hereunder until such payment is made and satisfactory credit arrangements are established; or (b) cancel the unshipped balance of any order. At Tormach’s option, interest will be charged after the due date up to the maximum lawful contract interest rate.
Claims
In all claims for shortages, buyer must notify Tormach within 15 days of receipt of shipment. Charges for repair or inspection of parts by buyer, without prior authorization, cannot be honored. Claims will not be honored on those parts further processed by buyer resulting in change of dimensions or characteristics from parts ordered.
No claim for damages for goods that do not conform to specifications will be allowed unless Tormach is given immediate notice after delivery of goods to the first destination to which they are shipped and allowed an opportunity to inspect them. Goods for which damages are claimed shall not be returned, repaired, or discarded without Tormach’s written consent. BUYER’S EXCLUSIVE REMEDY AGAINST TORMACH, AND TORMACH’S SOLE OBLIGATION, FOR ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, WARRANTY, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), OR OTHERWISE, SHALL BE LIMITED TO TORMACH’S REPLACING GOODS THAT DO NOT CONFORM TO SPECIFICATIONS OR, AT TORMACH’S OPTION, REFUNDING THE PURCHASE PRICE. IN NO EVENT SHALL TORMACH HAVE ANY LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES IN AN AMOUNT EXCEEDING THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE GOODS SOLD HEREUNDER, NOR SHALL TORMACH HAVE ANY LIABILITY FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES.
Limited Liability
Tormach’s liability shall be limited to the amount of any purchase. In no event will Tormach be liable for consequential or special damages arising from any defect or use of products or services. Tormach is not liable to Buyer, or any customer of buyer, for loss of profits, lost data, lost products, loss of revenue, loss of use, cost of down time, business good will, or any other incidental or consequential damage, whether in an action in contract or tort, arising out of or related to the machine or components, or other products or services provided by Tormach, or the failure of parts or products made using Tormach machines or products, even if Tormach has been advised of the possibility of such damages.
Tormach assumes no responsibility with respect to the use of products or services by Buyer, and Tormach shall not incur any liability to Buyer for any failure in design, production, operation, performance or otherwise of the products or services, other than repair or replacement of same as set forth in Tormach’s Limited Warranty, if applicable.
Tormach is not responsible for any damage to parts, machines, business premises or other property of Buyer, or for any other incidental or consequential damages that may be caused by a malfunction of products or services.
Buyer has accepted these restrictions on its right to recover incidental or consequential damages as part of its bargain with Seller. Buyer realizes and acknowledges that the price of products and services would be higher if Tormach were required to be responsible for incidental or consequential damages, or punitive damages.
Returns
All returns must be accompanied by a Returned Material Authorization (RMA) number provided by Tormach. Shipment for replacement parts is free, but the shipment method is at the discretion of Tormach. In general delivery will be by UPS ground service for domestic customers or USPS for international customers. If overnight or express delivery is requested, additional fees will apply.
Seller's Acceptance
Acceptance of any order is limited by these terms and conditions. No modification will be effective and no additional or different terms will become a part of the contract unless specifically agreed to in writing by Tormach’s and the Buyer’s authorized representatives.
Prices
Tormach’s prices will not be higher than stated on the invoice hereof unless otherwise agreed to in writing by Tormach and an authorized employee of the Buyer. The price quoted herein includes an allowance for taxes and fees levied by government authorities. Stenographic, software and clerical errors are subject to correction.
Verification & Inspection
If any goods arrive at Buyer’s destination in a damaged condition or a shortage occurs, Buyer shall immediately report the damage or shortage in writing to the delivering carrier and to Tormach. Any loss or shortage of goods occasioned by damage, or otherwise occurring in transit, will be the Buyer’s responsibility. Tormach may elect to assist Buyer in recovering damages, provided Buyer furnishes Tormach written authorization to recover damages from Buyer’s carrier.
Technical Assistance
Unless otherwise expressly agreed to in writing by Tormach: (a) any product support provided by Tormach with respect to the use of goods furnished to Buyer shall be without charge at the sole discretion of Tormach; (b) Tormach assumes no obligation or liability for any such advice or for any results occurring as a result of the application of such advice, beyond the terms specified in the product warranty; and (c) Buyer shall have sole responsibility for selection and specification of the goods appropriate for the anticipated end use and for ensuring that all activities are carried out in a safe manner.
Because we do not know the details of Buyer’s workshop or other local conditions, Tormach cannot accept responsibility for the performance of any of our products or any damage or injury caused by use. It is Buyer’s responsibility to understand the implications and risks involved to using and modifying Tormach products. Buyer must comply with any legislation and codes of practice applicable to Buyer’s country and/or state.
Tormach offers technical support for every product we design when it is used as intended. Primary support is provided by the product manual and through supplemental information available on the Tormach web site (www. tormach.com). If you have additional questions that are not answered by these documents, or if the documents are not clear to you, then we will do everything we can to answer your questions through email or telephone. This support is subject to our standard terms and conditions. All other support is subject to consulting fees.
Arbitration
Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this contract, or the breach thereof, shall be settled by binding arbitration in Madison, Wisconsin, USA and administered by the American Arbitration Association in accordance with its Commercial Arbitration Rules, and judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrator(s) may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof.
Choice of Law
This agreement shall be governed by the laws of the state of Wisconsin and of the United States. Buyer, acting for itself and its successors and assigns, hereby expressly and irrevocably consents to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state of Wisconsin and applicable federal courts for any litigation which may arise out of or be related to this agreement.
Buyer waives any objection based on forum non conveniens or any objection to venue of any such action.
Waiver
Tormach reserves the right to enforce these terms and conditions at any time and none shall be deemed waived unless such waiver is in writing signed by a duly authorized officer of Tormach. All rights and remedies granted herein are in addition to all remedies available at law or in equity. Waiver of any terms of this agreement shall not affect the policy rights and obligations under the remainder of this agreement.
Last Updated Jun 22, 2009
- Download Tormach Terms & Conditions


]

Warranty information
All the items we sell are covered under warranty for one year from the original purchase date, for the original buyer. Other name-brand items may come with different manufacturer warranties.
This warranty does not applyto consumable parts or defects due directly to misuse, abuse, negligence, accidents, repairs, improper wiring, alterations, or lack of maintenance.
This is Grizzly's sole written warranty and any and all warranties that may be implied by law, including any merchantability or fitness, for any particular purpose are hereby limited to the duration of this written warranty.
We do not warrant or represent that our merchandise complies with the provisions of any laws, acts or electrical codes.
We do not reimburse for third party repairs or any expenses related to moving machinery to and from carrier vehicles.
In no event shall Grizzly's liability under this warranty exceed the purchase price paid for the product and any legal actions brought against Grizzly shall be tried in the State of Washington, County of Whatcom.
We shall in no event be liable for death, injuries to persons, or damage to property, or for incidental, contingent, special or consequential damages arising from the use of our products.
To take advantage of this warranty please call our Customer Service Department at (800) 523-4777 or e-mail to [email protected].
Proof of purchase must accompany the merchandise.
Manufacturers reserve the right to change specifications at any time because they constantly strive to achieve better quality equipment.
Merchandise covered by a manufacturer's warranty must be sent directly to the manufacturer for repair or replacement. These manufacturers include DeWalt, Porter Cable, Makita, Milwaukee, Drill Doctor, Hobart, Campbell Hausfeld, Fein, Baldor and others.
Please see the information provided in the product manual for warranty information.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

In all fairness it needed much more than being blanchard ground.

Norton-Nitro
All the more reason you should have just nailed the crate closed and returned it for a refund.

[MichaelHenry]

Norton-Nitro
All the more reason you should have just nailed the crate closed and returned it for a refund.

Did you miss this statement by Norton-BMW?

But as another poster on here N1tr0 noted, the return policy mandated that you had to keep the machine for a full year.

There's not much point in nailing the crate closed and returning it if you have to wait a year for a refund.

It's interesting that JTJT posts a thread to describe warranty terms which is locked shortly after posting. Can a moderator comment on why the thread was locked and if it was by a mod or by JTJT?