[cnewb]

oxi,

I bought my machine from CARVING_CNC.com

They have a different product line now, but still looks like a good value machine.

[cnewb]

Oxi,

I have previously posted some pictures of my machine.

Nothing recent been too busy with other project.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/642833...7633998424130/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/642833...7633486794444/

[oxi]

I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the assistance. As you probably assessed by now my experience in these regards is nearly null, and I'm usually reserved when it comes to my intentions but I'll try to be more specific.

What size sheet? (width and length)

What grades of aluminum?

The size of the sheet is rather unimportant. I'll be working with samples no bigger than 4x4" arrayed in a matrix, so the bigger the working area, the longer between switching sheets.
I'll probably be using 6063 and hard woods. I might want to do 6082 occasionally.

I still think a mill would suit you best. I've seen guy attach outrigger spindles for high speed work as well. A G0704 tupe mill would give you about an 17" x 8" x 10" work area, anf you'll have room on each side to mount a rotary axis and tailstock. Shouldn't be too horrendous to move either.

oxi

practically any cnc router will ENGRAVE steel.. means makes about 0.2 mm depths a very small diameter..
but this is not called milling..
and beyond this everything is just miserable..

as others tried to pointing, you need a mill...

victorofga, thanks for clarification. Guys, I never intended to cut say 1/2" depth in one pass, not even in wood! If I can do 1mm in 5 passes on aluminum I'll be most happy! That is, given the tool can handle it! As long as I can have the same result in the end, I don't care that much. Of course 1mm in 1 pass would be really desirable... I'd love to have a beast to do deep cuts in steel, but I didn't even intend to do deep cuts with my DIY.

oxi,

I bought my machine from CARVING_CNC.com

They have a different product line now, but still looks like a good value machine.

I tried to get a shipping quote but their site seems unoperative (tried 3 browsers). Also they seem more pricey than those I found over eBay. I have this feeling they're resellers and that all these machines that look the same on eBay come from the same manufacturer. What do you think?

Oxi,

I have previously posted some pictures of my machine.

Nothing recent been too busy with other project.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/642833...7633998424130/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/642833...7633486794444/

Very interesting pictures. Why did the gear profile come (a bit) bad? Did you go too fast or was it the machine? Oh and you seem to be using coolant in the pump. Is the pump meant to cool down the spindle as opposed to the bit and part? If the coolant is just meant for the spindle, maybe it doesn't have a fan... how disappointing.

So are we getting closer to my machine? :banana:
Thanks everyone!
:wave:

[victorofga]

Ball Screw CNC Router ENGRAVER ENGRAVING6040 Water Cool Spindle Motor VFD USA | eBay
this one 200 shipping.. but ask pictures what rails are in...
also notice it has spindle 800 watt.. this would be better than other 400 watt spindles.

================================================== ============================
4 Axis CNC Router ENGRAVER Engraving Machine Carving 6040 Four Crafts Great | eBay

this another one shows the rail is supported rail.. this one sure good.. it cost more, but free ship

in my opinion, this second looking better.. also motors are larger, less chance for lost steps..
================================================== ============================
collets are about 35 dollar per set... either mm or inches..


also note if you buy from china, directly, then under 2000 is no custom fee..

[lstool]

WOW!!!!!! as long as your not trying to make a living form this adventure!!!! I advise look for another hobby unless this trial and error process and killing time...(in this case error and error) is the hobie and you're finding some type and or kind of enjoyment or fulfilment from this venture than carry on..... no more words can express the pain I feel for you and this whole process that's happening here.... I take it you're not in the states.... otherwise I'd be happy to help in any way I can (fabricate parts for you at cost even some fundamental training and maybe some teaching on common sense.... cause something is up here and I think you may have spun a thrust bearing a long long time ago) But I would hire, and of course have to direct someone like you because I truly admire your persistence and will to live (continue)..... That all being said..... I would love to see pictures posted of your work in progress and all you've done and or tried so far.....

[victorofga]

oh
i just seeing youre in spain..

the shipping calculator says 346 to spain..

and oxi

dont worry too much on how you going to learn.. it will comes..
pending on what prior experiments you have, it mightbe slower or faster.. but you can learn it...
practically no higher math or other involved..

most people learned just themselves... sw companies has tutorials for their programs..
on youtube hundreds of tutorial..

many folks, even from other trades, woodworkers, or accountants even built their own machines..
you buy a ready and you can start immediately experimenting..

first you might just cut simple squares, circles, but after start you can go quickly on the learning path.. creativity can takes you very far..

[oxi]

LOL Thank you lstool (I guess )
That'd be very embarrassing to post some pictures of what I already got, but I might do in the future. I can tell you it's just the outer structure, some plates bolted, some welded and some "rails" for the Y axis, and some parts of the table. I recently tried to start a part of the Z axis out of rectangular tubes and it's just a very ugly mount for a ballscrew end nut full of ugly welds.

victorofga: Yes I live in Spain. Importing from the USA is a no-no as I'll be charged with the importing taxes 100% of the time. Importing from China I might get away with a smaller package or price, but in this case there's a high probability I'll be charged, and taxes are something around 20 to 25% the product value. Ain't it a lovely country? We don't produce almost anything, yet importing is that expensive. Not surprised about corruption.

The first machine you posted looks the same as the one I posted before. Can we assume I could get away (see what I'll be doing above) with one of these engraving machines? Also what do you mean by the rails being supported please? What can I expect from an 800w spindle and a 1.5Kw one?

[victorofga]

for wood they are working very well.. for plastic also they are a good choice..
if you try to build one, you can get the parts... you might getaway without paying custom.. also you spend little at time.. but shipping will be added on each order..

the supported rail has an aluextrusion that hold a chromeplated shaft, while unsupported just the chromeplated rod, or shaft itself..
the unsupported has more flex..

and yes you see it right many seller sells almost identical, because some company makes parts, and others assembling theirs of those parts..
they producing a lot..

you can check your country if one sells there similar router.... mightbe importing from England makes less custom or pay no at all..

one thing im sure, if you get to the point you want to entering in manufacturing, don't give it up..
youll get the capability to producing something of raw materials..

some type of part, like you mention baseball bat, you better just simply turn.. with a lathe
yet you can make individually one on the mill, but it will be more work on your side..

the second one I posted that shows calculator for spain.. so just don't get discouraged.. if you feel you can buy then go out for..

you need to find the thing, you can start to make for income.. a router makes you parts hundreds, with one setup..
then you can upgrade for larger machine..
you need to find things, otherwise hard to make by hand... difficult conturs, or relief type thing that require otherwise artist to carving..

the 4th axis important because that add something important for a router..

keep checking aliexpress and alibaba ... both has seller for parts for a cnc..

[oxi]

Hey victorofga, thank you for clarifying and the encouragement!

So they're a no go for aluminum?

Now, I had decided to buy an already built machine, because I proved beyond doubt I can't build one, but you're making me reconsider. Maybe if I buy a frame I can build it. I gotta confess I was enough a fool to buy all the parts except the frame back then. I never even thought of buying one. But I just checked and I couldn't find any for NEMA 34 on eBay On AliExpress it's virtually impossible as it doesn't seem to search through the whole item description, or I can't see how.

I think I'm just going to keep looking for a machine... I'd rather not repeat the mistake... When I get a few more models I'll post here and hopefully someone will chime in to say "Yes, that one will do"

Oh, BTW there are LOTS of machines on AliExpress and many cheaper than on eBay and with free shipping. So cheap I wouldn't care about taxes... if they're not so cheap they won't hold together, that is.

:cheers:

[victorofga]

yes and no


yes, keep going to look for what you need..
some small part affordable to make with the router...

however it wont work as a mill...

the prices..
they are works I could say all works of them.. but..

in this small size like 6040 you can expect a pricerange from 1500-2500
a 6090 start with 2800 and up to 5000 the 5000 sure has 2.2kw spindle, and square rails.. you can use for aluminum cuts..

a 1200x1200 start with 3400 and up to 5500 ,,,, here also the upper price shows the machine has in..

with lower price you get use to be 1.5 kw spindle and supported round rails
with upper price you get a more stiff machine you can cut lightly aluminum..

but even a very expenses brand router for 150K will not cut metal like a milling machine.. which one made of cast iron..

for these low prices has many reason, first off, they really make and sell a lot.. companies are specialed for parts and they make everyday..
other companies assembling..

also the cheap labor has great effect on the price..

since they are producing too much then market press down the price itself..

if seller shows jinan, or guangzou then it possible manufacturer.. other areas from china most likely distributors..

shipping low cost reason they load on a ship that practically a ""perpeetum mobile"" when it ships somewhere, after unloading they immediately loading back another merchandise.. so no empty ship going.. and stops everywhere till get your machine to its destination..

most seller can give you real customers, you can email and ask them how machine working.. myself also answered many folks who bought from same seller..

[oxi]

Thank you victorofga, I understand. I need a powerful spindle and square rails/stiff frame to cut metals properly.

In the meantime I've done homework, I've gone over literally tens of thousands of items and hundreds of machines on eBay. I run a search for "CNC" from $5k to $500 and wasn't more specific not to leave out possible hits. I found a few CNC mills and many routers/engravers.

I also read on how to convert a manual mill to CNC but from past experience this is a route I don't want to take.

I still feel quite lost, but for a lack of a better understanding and in the hopes of not committing another mistake, I think I'll go for the best CNC mill I can and leave the engraver venture aside for the moment. It saddens me because mill beds are rather small, and that will mean I'll have to be more there when I'm doing 2.5 in order to change sheets, etc. But you get what you pay for... Oh I saw several old monster mills, but I'd be afraid when they need repairs, so no.

I'll look for CNC mills on AliExpress now, this shouldn't take so long as my previous search as I'll be more specific, and I'll come back with a few models to ask for members' approval before I buy.

:cheers:

[lstool]

Dude I would have been making chips by now!!.... why would you not want to venture into converting an existing mill to cnc? Makes no sense with the skill set you are displaying here..... you are obviously not capable of reinventing the wheel.... and you will not find crap on aliexpress.... any decent mill will easily engrave what ever you want...... well I'm still waiting to see some pictures it would be a nice addition to the entertainment of this thread..... as the reading is just keeping me intreaged and entertained..... but you keep going....my suggestion. ..take an existing mill... anything you can get your hands on.... preferably medium size benchtop and add some nema 34's and some anti backlash nuts.... in a nutshell that's where you should start and gain some expierience....

[mcphill]

I started with this machine:

FireBall V90 CNC Router -



It worked great as a learning base, and was relatively inexpensive. From there I got a "real" mill, and all the skills except feeds and speeds were 100% transferable. The components (motors, drivers, controller computer) are also all usable on a larger system, though I have not re-purposed them as yet. Here are a couple things I made with that machine:

Very first test, with free software demo to make the GCode:



This "printed" circuit board:



Penny is there to show the scale/accuracy this "cheap" machine is capable of:





A Hammer Form to shape aluminum:

3-D model:



Roughed in:



One side complete:



Whole thing:



Played around with the photo of a friend of mine:





The lesson is, you don't have to break the bank to get a machine that can do 1000's of things, and what you learn will transfer to a bigger machine if you find you need it. The most important thing is you get a machine and get started. I would NOT build a machine if I were you - I would get a turnkey system and start making parts. That is, as long as your goal is to make "things" and not "build a machine". There are MANY people on this board that have been building a single machine for years, and don't car about making parts, so what is more important/fun for you only you can determine!

So, how much would this machine be even if you paid import duty? Would it be less than you have already spent, and give you the ability to already be working on making things?

[CosmosK]

You don't need a CNC machine to make use of all the steel you bought. An old mill fitted with a DRO and you can make most if not all the parts you need for your DIY machine. Just a thought, although it seems you may be abandoning that material. For welding, you're probably best to find a guy in your area who does that for a living. Show him what you've tried and he'll probably do it for cheap. Most of us have been there before to some extent.

The end mill won't be the one holding you back. You need rigidity and power to cut harder materials. End mills are cheap. I ended up getting a pretty pricey router with a steel frame and a good deal of power and it can just do light AL work (with good quality). Routers get bigger, but that hurts your rigidity. High speed spindles have little power at low rpm where metal cutting needs to happen. Chipload on your end mill is important. You can't cut .0002" chipload and think you're compensating for the lower power you have. Materials work harden when you don't take enough chipload. Keeps coming back to needing a big heavy machine to cut steel.

You can get a router to cut AL, but the quality may not be very good. Take your expectations, then cut them in half. My advice would be get or build whatever machine you can so you can get to making some parts. Once you have the ability to make any parts, you can get on the road to having it payback and start thinking about how you can make the next parts.

[oxi]

People, people, you're gonna make me crazy! I appreciate all the advice but there are way too many different views!

As several members said, I gotta decide whether I want to spend my time building a DIY or making parts, and I have decided for the latter already.

lstool: No, I don't have the skills. I can imagine me buying a manual mill and how I wouldn't be able to adapt the motors because I couldn't drill straight holes somewhere in the frame or wherever they go. And worse yet are the problems I'd need to go through that I can't imagine. As for the pictures... sorry it's way too embarrassing. If I actually get a DIY done in the future I'll have no problem posting pics of this failure.

mcphill: That's awesome what you can do with these machines and I got a couple of noobish questions but I don't want to go offtopic. I agree I need to get started. Thing is I need to machine aluminum and I have decided best would be to go for a sturdy steel frame verticall mill for this. I prefer to spend more and be able to do aluminum from the start, that's why it's taking long to make up my mind.

To recap, this is what I intend to work:
baseball ball size hard woods (boxwood and others): 40% of the time
3/16" thick 6063 aluminum sheet: 40% of the time
3/16" thick hard woods sheet (boxwood and others): 15% of the time
baseball ball size 6063 aluminum: 5% of the time

CosmosK: I really like your suggestion and the way you think. It's probably true I could get some parts for my DIY done with a manual mill and a DRO. However, it won't help when it comes to making complex parts and I'd have to finish my DIY before I can start producing. Thing is I realized a big flaw in my design: It's basically a router with a very long Z axis and no matter how it's made of steel it won't be stiff or good enough. I think these are enough two reasons to go for a CNC vertical mill. After I start producing, I can always think of finishing my DIY, although I'm planning a complete redesign to make it a fixed spindle with a massive bed. I'll be transferring the Z axis travel to the bed and I'll need several ballscrews and big motors for it. But it's just an (probably crazy)idea.

So people, after looking through several mills both on eBay and AliExpress (its search engine sucks) this is a machine I'm considering right now:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/mini-...08.4.37.ZHHTsX

What I like: Comes with a booth (can this be detached if needed?), high torque motors, spindle with low rpm end.
What I doubt:

• Nowhere it's said its frame is cast iron or steel, although judging by the weight I'd say it's not aluminum, but I could be wrong.
• States accuracy but not ballscrew helix travel, so I can't judge...
• Is a belt better to drive the spindle than gears? My cheap column drill uses a belt and many times it will slide if the bit gets stuck. Also I need to set the speed manually by moving the belt end to another gear. Will I have to do this as well here? "Variable spindle Speed under full CNC control" alright I guess that means no.
• Is there a problem carving woods at low speeds? (3000/6000rpm)
• square rails?

There are a few beasts on the $10k-5k range but taxes included this is something I can't afford. On the other hand this one I could afford taxes included and it's not as heavy (some are 1.5ton)

By all means tell me what you think. If this won't be enough I could go for a pricier one (I might end up living at mom's home though LOL)

:cheers:

[victorofga]

just keep going to looking

some sites giving pictures.. that shows it made of cast iron and using square rails..

they are customizing your request.. means you can ask for higher Z
mightbe different size of table..

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VM420L 2.2KW BT30 Vertical CNC milling machine cnc engraving frame machine Small China Cnc Milling Machine-in Milling Machine from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

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SALE CNC Router Milling, CNC Laser, CNC plasma machine, China, Servo Motor Drive, UK, USA, Italy, Spain, Thailand

[Tkamsker]

Hi Why dont you get yourself a Mill for the Main Work you Do ? I use a heiz 400 t even with Alu and source the Steel Parts ? I am sure in you prepare drawing till g Code it will be fast n cheap .. maybe you r demand fit into one of my Plans ..

[gio666]

First thing to do when looking for machine. Cant just look at picture taken from 10 feet away and say good deal.
Railing is the most important , Square rails are the best. Lots of machines with cover over rails have cheap supported rails and not square rails.Ask for pictures of behind cover
Ballscrews. Low quality or good.You never know till you have the machine.Lots of machine have bearing on one end and use motor coupling to hold other side up.Ask for pictures of both ends of screws.
Where rails attach, is it machined? Are all mounting parts machined flat?
Buying a machine from a picture and no details is like someone selling you a great deal on property in Florida ,only problem its the swamp and not like in pictures

[CosmosK]

Also, spindle runout is important. Also, how far it is measured from the collet is important. I got a mini mill from little machine shop and while fine for what I do, if I put a long drill in, I can see the runout and it vibrates things, etc.

[oxi]

Hey,

victorofga: Thanks, checked your links. I had seen first two ones already. First one I saved for considering later (in case the one I'm considering now won't turn out good). Second one is just a frame and shipping costs are insane (although not worst, I've seen some higher than machine price). The last ones I won't consider, they seem basically routers, spindle moving through two axis.

Tkamsker: Not sure what you mean. I think you're implying I can cut steel parts with an aluminum frame router then upgrade from there. However other members stated I need a steel frame mill to do this properly. Since I'm not 100% positive about the former, I prefer to go for the latter.

gio666: Agreed. LOLed at your analogy of the property in Florida. You really mean some machines don't have bearings on both ends of ballscrews? Dang... I'll make sure to find out as well.

For the moment what I can say is I have contacted the seller who was supposed to be online but replied one hour later. I had therefore sent an offline message with my questions but haven't got any replies yet:

Hello,
Is this final price to deliver to my door? Taxes excluded
Can the booth be detached?
Is the frame hollow or solid? is it cast iron? aluminum?
What are the ballscrew sizes and travel per turn?
Are the rails square?
Is this good for wood too?
Can you show me more pictures?
Thank you

If I eventually get a reply I'll make sure to ask whether ballscrews are held properly at both ends. Thank you.

CosmosK: What's spindle runout exactly please? Also, if the collet touches on the bed at zero and the Z axis has a travel of 290mm, doesn't this mean I can feed it 290mm minus tool length high pieces? 290mm looks like a lot to me. Maybe too much? Please elaborate cause I think I didn't get you.