[hanermo]

I´m Finnish and live near Barcelona.
English is my second native tongue.

I may be able to help re: machine stuff on whats needed.
PM me if you want help.

I build industrial machines, and have industrial experience/training, and 12 years experience.
I will be happy to skype chat or talk to help you, if you want.
Tambien en espanol.

Most of my stuff is commercial, and I need to live off it.
Thats why there are few photos at the moment.
This will change, soon, but for the moment..



[QUOTE=oxi;1698556]All right people, I think I'm learning...
hanermo: Woah, I think you're playing in a far different league! Your English seems a bit out of reach for me

[gio666]

I thought I pretty much did here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...ml#post1696912 (Hint: Get the fireball, learn on it, and find out if this is even something you really want to do, transfer the skills you LEARN ON YOUR OWN to decide on your "real" machine purchase or build...)

But if we are confusing you, stop adding confusion to the answers!

I am done with this thread, there is more than enough advice here to get your started, and I think I agree with the response that maybe you aren't "cut out" for this type of work. If you are confused just picking a machine, I cannot imagine what you will do when it comes to setting up the machine controller and the CAM software...

People come here to learn, that's what the forum is about. To say someone is not cut out for what they want to do is ridicules . Who are you god of cnc world?

Then to insult the guy about having to learn software . totally a joke. Make the guy struggle more now with people shooting him down
You should learn some stuff yourself. The wood cut out, The chatter marks on it , what you have to do 35 finishing passes? looks like you got the property in Florida and got alligator's to cut out with all the marks.

[gio666]

oxi, ask what you need to know, if you need help with parts you have, you can email me at [email protected] and ill try to help you out .
Not much advise your getting if someone tells you to get a fireball machine. lol better to get china machine before that


XZero CNC Routers

[gio666]

STOP even contemplating machining steel with a router or a machine that uses aluminum in ANY of its support structure. If you want to machine steel parts, you need a SOLID, heavy machine (cast iron). If those parts are small (tennis ball or smaller), you may be OK with a smaller manual mill, but you want to regularly machine parts larger than a tennis ball, you will need $6k+ to do it reasonably well at all. Stop wasting time and money trying to convince yourself otherwise!

Here a aluminum router that cuts aluminum everyday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNpRUhT_M3Y

[mcphill]

People come here to learn, that's what the forum is about.

George, you are right. oxi, I apologize. You all have fun in this thread.

[louieatienza]

Oxi, the truth is that you are asking a machine that can do three different types of material. I would say that aluminum is probably the closest to wood as far as spindle speeds and feedrates. For sheet stock I don't see any reason why you couldn't cut either successfully.

However for "baseball" sized stock, you'll need a tool with a cutting edge as long as your part is tall to fully mill it. I have my doubts whether that can be done on a regular basis with a gantry style machine. I think most everyone who starts off new says exactly the same thing - that time is not of the essence. But you can't just run the machine slower, take shallower cuts with faster spinal speeds. You'll ruin your tools and likely your work. Ok, you COULD do this but I would be reluctant to advise this as I know you won't be happy with the results. And it costs more to run your machine that way. Now if you want to machine steel that requires spindle speeds about 6 times slower than a typical high speed spindle, and more torque. I'm sure it's possible and probably has been done, but it's a great way to kill your spindle and mechanicals on your machine, as well as a great way to subsidize the electric company.

Another problem is fixturing such a part. I'd use a good vise, and that takes up valuable Z height on a gantry machine. You need clearance for your vise, work piece, tool, and a "safe Z" clearance (to allow the machine to reposition without running into a part or fixture.). The more clearance you need, the more robust the machine needs to be.

It is for these reasons many are recommending a mill conversion. The downside may be table size, but your parts as described seem small anyway. I think it's hard to make ANY recommendations on machines just based on pictures or ads, or whatever advice you receive here. If you go into the commercial wood router section you can read many posts on the horrors of these imports, from faulty wiring, bad electronics, rough bearings, poor castings, lack of support... Some have had luck, some have completely rebuilt their machines.

If you dis have to buy a router style machine then xzero would be a good choice, since it has real square type linear rails and good spindles and proper ballscrew supports. I probably wouldn't do large steel pieces with it because of the stresses that puts on a machine, but should be OK for aluminum.

Check out CR Onsrud's heavy duty machining center. HUGE cast iron bridge, large linear rails, ground ballscrews, enormous servomotors, 40hp spindle... and even they don't claim to do steel other than sheet stock. That alone should tell you something about realistic expectations for your machine purchase. Caveat Emptor....

[victorofga]

oxi

from engineering viewpoint on one end you using axial and radial support, while on other end only can be used radial support..


in some case the other end bearing support can be voided, due the ballnut support anyway..

but again you can ask the manufacturer to mount on other end too..

so... if you choose supporting on one end only, it can work, but you have to place the motor on the supported end..

[wizard]

People come here to learn, that's what the forum is about. To say someone is not cut out for what they want to do is ridicules . Who are you god of cnc world?

Everyone has limitations on his skills set. For example I can weld to somewhere but wouldn't hesitate to find a professional welder for critical welds. Further this post seems to involve a business opportunity of some sort (info needed has not been forth coming) and relatively low volume in such a case contracting the work out should at least be considered.

Then to insult the guy about having to learn software . totally a joke. Make the guy struggle more now with people shooting him down
You should learn some stuff yourself. The wood cut out, The chatter marks on it , what you have to do 35 finishing passes? looks like you got the property in Florida and got alligator's to cut out with all the marks.

I agree that learning by ones self is important and frankly so is helping such people learn. However the realty is not everything can be taught virtually over the net. It is one reason why I'm reluctant to get into discussions with individuals about electrical work that don't obviously understand what is going on with electrical systems. There is a very high risk of a communications disconnect leading to a significant safety issue. When communications become an issue, as it is here, you really need to consider the possibility that what is being said isn't getting through.

I sort of look at this like training and evaluating a new guy in the shop. If you realize you aren't getting through to the guy, you really need to consider if he is a good fit for the craft. I once saw a post from a shop owner where he mentioned about one out of hundred people considered for a job have the potential to be an asset in his business. That isn't too far off from accurate. Some people are just on different planets.

[oxi]

Thank you everybody and sorry for the delay.

Honestly I was a bit shocked and decided to back off a bit, but I understand I can be a little pest at times. Although in my defense I'll just say it's only natural I want to get the most out of my money, no matter how limited my budget and (virtually null) expertise are, and that's why I've been insisting in clearing out so many doubts, and probably unintentionally adding more confusion.

So this is what I did:
I looked into buying from cnc-step first based on advice, because it's in EU and what's-more there's a dealer in the next big city from mine only 60Km away. They're expensive but they might be worth it. 1st turn-off was the models I could afford apparently use round rails. 2nd turn-off the 4th axis option is IMO insanely expensive.

I then decided to look into XZero cnc machines. I liked the 8080 aluminum and square rails and the price seems very fair. Biggest turn-off was to find out they don't include a spindle.

Then I looked at several machines from salecnc. I was really tempted. Only thing holding me back was some specifications were missing for all of them, namely: ballscrew specs and rails. Some of them advertise they're packed with HiWin linear bearings... but again I didn't feel like asking for these basic specs for all the machines I could be interested in. Also it's one more month shipping until I get one and they're very heavy. I know, heavier should be better, but this poses another set of problems for me because I might move from my current place shortly. So I decided not to bother and looked back into the Canadian brand. After all I already have a spindle.

So I got back to George and asked for a mount for my Kress spindle. These weren't available as apparently this is not such a good spindle. I took a look at some spindles on eBay that'd fit on 80 or 65mm mounts. I finally decided to get myself a mount but I had to find out what the mounting holes specs are to see if these are compatible. It was virtually impossible to find this information so I asked George, and no, they're not. He was kind enough to offer to add holes spaced according to my spindle mount (he's been really helpful and patient) and so all the issue resolved... almost. I then had a number of problems with PayPal and my bank (unlucky me) and finally was able to pay.

I'll let you know how it goes. Oh BTW, George coming to my defense had little weight in my decision. Now whether this is a commercial tactic or merely genuine support, only he knows, and it's not in anyone else's hands to make statements as to which one is true, you can only guess... unless you can read minds. Yes, it did have weight in my decision, again, little.

One last thing: I came here for your help because I'm inexperienced and I was really really frustrated with the stalling in the path I had taken of trying to build my own machine. Given my lack of knowledge or expertise, my will to get the best out of my money and my natural indecisiveness I might have caused yet more confusion that probably backfired to myself. But in no way does this automatically render me a fool or unfit for this kind of work. When it comes to this area I'm just ignorant and inexperienced, just as I am in countless areas, but I do excel at some. Fortunately I think I know myself better than you know me, and even though I failed in my DIY venture, based on experience in other areas I feel confident enough I'll eventually succeed. I'll be far from mastering it but neither do I intend to. But in the end only time will tell.

Again, thank you everybody for your continued support and advice, and be sure it's been heard and appreciated.

:cheers:

[oxi]

Hey everybody,

So here's a little update.

There was some misunderstanding between George and me, the order was cancelled, and... I'll just leave it at that. I backed off to give it a lot more thought to try and find a solution that wouldn't bring any problems and finally ordered a vertical mill, an Optimum BF20L, with the motors and ballscrews, both of which I'll try and install myself, and then will try to use the electronics I already have to try and save a bit. As far as I know, they should be compatible, if they're not, well I can always order the original electronics later. But before all that I want to try manual milling for a while to see if I get the hang. Also I'm thinking it'll be hard to disassemble the machine to mount the ballscrews, due to its heavy weight, but well, we'll just see when the time comes.

I got the machine yesterday and I'm still fascinated, although I'm unable to use it because I have no tools yet LOL. It comes with an MT2-B16-M10 arbor, to which I think I could fit a common drill chuck to use drill bits. As for milling, I'm not sure whether I should get some spare morse taper collets or a set of ER collet chuck plus collets.

The pros and cons I see:

taper collet:

cheaper than a collet chuck
allows for greater height
less wobbling?

ER collet chuck plus ER collets:

collets cheaper than taper collets, I guess? and the collet chuck is just one buy
allows for lower height, which could actually be good if not using a vise
I guess the nut makes a better fit for the end mills, but I just don't know

Also I read two bad reviews on taper collets...

Anyways, did I mention I'm excited? I love the built-in DRO for spindle travel and the precision wheel.

[Tkamsker]

did you buy an cnc kit for the bf20 ?


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[victorofga]

I think you made good decision..
because this can be used for steel as well..


go with er collets.. they are practically cheap, and they hold quite good..

yet... the R8 collets used directly in spindle they more rigid than an er collet on a morsetaper..

go with a complete conversion kit..

High-Torque Stepper Motor, Stepper Motor, Driver, Stepper Motor kit, DC Servo Motor, DC Servo Motor kit, Stepper Motor Power Supply, CNC Router, Spindle, and other Components. Stepper Motor | Stepper Motor Driver | CNC Router | Laser Machine | 3D Prin

this is a grizzly kit, but they have kit for the bf20 too..
I think they ship to spain... just quote it..

[oxi]

Oh yes I got the original MK F20DP CNC kit from Optimum
Attachment 281902
I'm just lacking the original controller (breakout board) and driver cards, but I'll try to use the other ones I have already. They should work.

Okay, I think I'll get a morse taper ER chuck, some collets and end mills. And also a B16 drill chuck for the included arbor. That should get me started. BTW can I fit any shank into ER collets or they need to be straight?

Thanks!

[Tkamsker]

Hi,
I have similar size mill (made in Europe - it uses ISO30 and i use ER Collets
I recommend to buy an Set of collets and then some extra in the sizes you need more often in my case 3,6,8 mm
I add an picture for joy
thomas

[lstool]

OMG SOMEBODY SHOOT THIS HORSE ALREADY AND PUT IT OUT OF ITS MISERY ALREADY!!!!!.......

[Tkamsker]

????

[oxi]

Hey Thomas, looks pretty neat, specially the rotary axis yum yum. I think ISO30 and 40 are serious stuff eh! Yeah I ordered a collet set already. Can't wait to get started.

LOL No, lstool is right, I'm not desperate anymore. So problem solved, I guess. I'll be posting new questions and comments in other threads. I still want to show a snapshot of my crappy DIY plans and some actual pics when I feel ready for the shame. I might still post here to point back to whatever thread I post them on.

:cheers:

[Tkamsker]

Hi,
no that rotary is only the small manual Proxxon one but for an small cut ok.
I also have a Rotary 4th axis but this one i really use seldom ,..

i like on my machine that i can use it manal as well as cnc
what are your plans do you keep the manual capability ?
thomas

[oxi]

Hi Thomas,
Well I don't have any rotary axis for the moment, but I do want one bad and I'll get one eventually.
No, unfortunately AFAIK I could only leave one of the side wheels on, the Z and Y wheels must be replaced... It really is a pitty, cause I think it'd be convenient to have them. I guess I'll have to use the Mach3 controls when I want to do things "manually", without g-code, I mean
Now that I think of it, I wonder if it was a good idea to order the edge finder and dial indicator... I don't know thou... I might keep the machine as manual for a good while yet...
:wave:

[victorofga]

oxi

first just get a machine.. bf 20 or the other clones..
also try to find a way for the cnc conversion..

regardless cnc or conventional, the additional items also will be costly.. like vise rotary, manual or cnc..
you can buy indexing head, and that also can solve a number of task..

an indexing head with c5 collet I think you can find about 50... the cheapest rotary for cnc 250 and its not capable for metal really..

just focus on to get a machine working.. don't worry on weight.. if you moving, then you can separate the column from base and you can handle yourself..

not simple, but not impossible..

dial indicator and edge finder each cost about 10 approximately.. on ebay.. but now, I think focus only getting the machine in your shop.. there will be expenses you don't see right now.. even just ashelf for tools cost some .. so all resources will need you..