[Harlow]

Harlow's on all the time maybe he can address some of philbur's concerns.

Was going to reply yesterday and my DSL went down. Currently using backup earthlink dialup account.

You said it "obviously stiffness may be an issue however I don't think this machine and base was intended for hogging operations". I would also add a question about precision.

Not intended for hogging. Correct. There is always bigger and heavier. Recently exchanged emails with an IH owner looking for a supplement to his IH. I don’t BS anyone. Below is some of my reply.

“It wouldn't come close to a IH but run properly it will do fine.”
“It still won't be the machine a IH is. Not enough mass.”

Precision – The way this machine is designed / built it can be set up to be as accurate as you are patient to make it. Everything is tweak-able. Parallel mills have been dead on. Surfacing has been dead on to acceptable. Squares are square.

Trouble is the web site doesn't say what it is intended for, and gives no performance figures.

Intended for – Gosh. I drive Corvettes and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Vette Brochure say “Intended to go Fast and Scare The Hell out of your passenger”. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever seen what a Vette is intended for. Sorry I missed that. Must have had a brain fort.

Performance Figures – IPM are stated on the site. There is zero backlash in the movements. The only exception is the Spider in the motor couplings. I have a solution for that.

A x2 is not known for material removal rates to start with. Now you install aluminium rails and hang the table way out there on the x-axis and y-axis. Looks like turning a small ok mill into a small so so router to me.

Aluminum Rails – Aluminum rails were not our original plan. We used them for mockup and prototyping. After seeing how well they were working I decided to stay with them. Stainless or drill rod would not improve performance and would add considerably to the cost.

"hang the table way out there on the x-axis and y-axis" – The rails are designed so that more than 50% of table is always supported. We extended the rails lengths some more so I don’t know the exact figures at this time but on the “hang way out there” statement, that just is not happening. The “Y” rails are 18 ½” on center. The “X” slides are 26” long and travel 13”+ in each direction. The “X” rails are 30” long (Up from 26”). You do the math. I don’t have time. I’m happy.

"Looks like turning a small ok mill into a small so so router to me." No comment. I don't play pointless non-productive thread slamming games.

I'm not knocking it just suggesting that a critical eye followed by a more in depth investigation might help avoid disappointment.

"I'm not knocking it" Refer to "Looks like turning a small ok mill into a small so so router to me."

30 Days – No Questions Asked - Money Back Guarantee – Customer would be out return shipping only. Been wanting to add this to the site just haven’t taken the time. I am zeroed in on production and will stay there until it is done.

To try and be constructive, this is a potential upgrade solution. However the base case for any major upgrade solution should be to sell what you have and buy or build what you need. Modification alternatives should then be evaluated against the base case before you conclude.

“Sell what you have.” Why? Besides, I believe at least 1/2 our sales are going to scratch builders.

“Buy or build what you need.” That’s what they are doing. They are buying what they need.

“Modification alternatives should then be evaluated against the base case before you conclude.” –

Believe me. We looked at probably every modification alternative you can think of. Ways vs slides, slides vs bearings, acme vs ballscrews, cut area sizes, table designs, column specs, etc. Every component has been scrutinized and has a reason for why it is. The pictures above are the third prototype. What is being shipped is the 4th and final. This base happened because we needed several small mills to produce a small product that we have yet to introduce. Cost per unit was a factor. Several nice IH, Bridgeport, Tormachs or several small mills capable of doing what we need just as good.




Saris – Surfacing your own t-slots makes the table align perfectly with the head. Flatness across travel seems to be dead on. The rails are straight and the slides are cast on the rails.

Column – We will be offering a kit to add mass to the column consisting of re-bar, epoxy and fillers. We are also looking at several options on the column mount. Will probably get to the mass kit pretty quick and leave the mount till after the enclosure. Column mass = no brainer = easy. Column mount = not easy. Enclosure = High priority.


later,
Harlow
http://cncbridges.com/

[saris]

X2 and variants Products


I wanted to produce one place to list all of the X2 products and prices from various manufacturers, along with different variants of the X2, here goes:
These mills are made by Syil in China:
http://www.siegind.com/Products/blac...ng-machine.htm

Mini Mill Comparison Table
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Inf...ll_compare.php

Manuals, Specs n’ such:
Manual: http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom...ls/g8689_m.pdf
Partslist: http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom...s/g8689_pl.pdf
Specs: http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom...s/g8689_ds.pdf
Manual2: http://www.micromark.com/html_pages/...573manual.html

X2’s, Model #, Price


*Cummins Tool, 7877, $399
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm
[IMG]file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Kevin%202/Desktop/Cummins.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Kevin%202/Desktop/Cummins.jpg[/IMG]


*Harbor Freight, 44991, $459
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44991


*Grizzly Tools, G8689, $525
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g8689



*Force Precision, FRV 30-020, $989
http://www.houseoftools.com/product.htm?pid=18460


*Micro-Mark, 82573, $524
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares...oduct&ID=82573


*HOMIER Speedway Series mini mill (obsolete), model 03947
http://www.homier.com/

*Procon Tech Mini Mill, TL-8000, $675
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/p8king/tl4000.htm


*KDN Tool, XJ95, $2975 (CNC’d version)
http://www.kdntool.com/_sgg/m2m5_1.htm
http://www.kdntool.com/_sgg/m2_1.htm

Note: This is an XJ9512 Mill, (China)




Variants:

*Proxxon Mini Mill, this is a BF20 Mill…
http://www.emachinetool.com/new/cata...&ProductID=953




*XJ9512, this is a variant to the X2, not made by Sieg, different base, diff motor, diff motor mount plate (thicker), 2 x-axis handwheels, diff handwheels, spindle guard mount diff., price= Unknown



The following are really very differnen from the x2, but anyway…

*wttools: variant, ZAY7045M, 1295$
http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/p...n_Swivel_Table


*Lathemaster, ZAT7045FG, $1395
http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTY...E%207045FG.htm



*Pentools, $1395
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=4493




Littlemachineshop Parts:

R8 Head assy.$249
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...ProductID=2517



Column, $79
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...ProductID=1766

[pzzamakr1980]

Hey, where did you get the Matrix tool plate from. I cant find any links for it. Thx

[saris]

sorry I missed posting the link, here it is, it's $86 bucks from them with all of the mitee bite clamps.

http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/in...es/Page621.htm

The clamps utilize mitee bite asymmetrical cam screws into the tool plate, gripping with supplied clamps, or u can machine ur own custom clamps, just add a thru hole...:rainfro:

There was a really nice video from deepgroove, but the link isnt working as of today...

[saris]

video is working now here it is:
http://deepgroove1.com/tool%20plate_256k.wmv

[saris]

Ok...I'm thinking of switching gears in my X2 project...Here's what I'm looking at: Instead of using the x2 column and head, using the BF20 column and head (still using Harlow's table design). I would have to modify the table attach points to the new column by adding 4 inserts. The BF20 column uses 4 bolts and is rigidly attached to the base. The head rotates about its attach point to the column in a big gimble.

My initial reason for looking at the BF20 was for the beefier column, but I believe the BF20 is just a more robust mill all around. I'm still mulling this over and want to know what everyone thinks....

Any input?

Here's the advantages of the BF20 in my opinion:

* Built in Dig. RPM
* Built in Dig. Depth
* Full dovetails on the column, as well as the x-y (i dont care about the x-y however since ill be swapping the table out)
*Beefier column and rotation point at the head, rigid attach to the base...
* Hand-scraped ways
* Increased Headstock Dovetail Engagement
* z-axis lead screw built-in to the column
* Manual Quill Travel For Manual Drilling Operations ( can retain manual z movement after cnc'ing the lead screw)
* Comparable price of the base mill, $480 (need to verify with the company)
I'm still looking for some specs, partlist would be nice too...

Any input?

bf20 sources:
http://www.kdntool.com/_sgg/m2m5_1.htm
http://www.emachinetool.com/new/cata...&ProductID=953

[saris]

This is the BF20 base column hole pattern (only uses 4 of these)


This pic and lots more found here:


Heres the translated version: http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

[ZipSnipe]

Just to correct you thats a BF16 heres the BF20 http://www.optimum-maschinen.de/prod...n/3/index.html
http://www.optimum-maschinen.de/prod...n/3/index.html

But yeah in my opinion the BF16 is slightly better made than the x2 however it only comes in 3mt taper.

[ZipSnipe]

PS the chinese always make kooler stuff for the Europeans. Here check this German made mill out http://www.golmatic.de/GOLmatic_EN/m...en/md23_en.htm
GOLmatic MD23 Universal Machine Tool - for milling and turning.

[saris]

What are the differnece in the bf16 to bf20? Also I thought the bf machines are made in china? my understanding was that companies like Optimum sell the bf's and pseudo passes them off as german made mills...Not correct?

You seem to know about the BF mills, any more info I can pick from you? Concerning my mill 'retrofit' plan, better idea than to go with the X2? All I would need to do is use the BF column and head for my retrofit, then the new table deisgn, and cnc the z-axis.

I have a call into emachinetool.com for pricing...but I still need some specs, partslist etc...

[ZipSnipe]

The bf's are made in china but go to europe rather than here. Emachine and Penn tool are the only suppliers(plus some guy selling ugly orange ones on ebay) selling just the bf16, the bf20 is the bigger brother, kinda like a x2 and a half, with a way larger table travel(more than the x3). Either Emachines or Penn tool will be your best choice and I believe are priced the same. The bf16 uses mt3 taper so you won,t be able to use the common r8 tooling. But for what you want to do the x2 is fine. I,ve used the x2 head in my mill that I built and rebuilt http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18992 . I,ve also seen the x2 in person while it is small, the column felt pretty sturdy. But after you use a Bridgeport, you,ll see that to cut and shape metal you need BEEF. I think you,re on the right track.

[saris]

Thats a sweet mill zipsnipe! Hows it working and did you fill the column?

Looks that that baby's got some travel on it eh?

[ZipSnipe]

Thanx,12 x 6x 4 1/2 on the z axis travel but really would like to get a bigger table. And I believe after I put the mill head back on and fill the column it should be fairly precise and rigid. I been eyeing Ebay for a bigger table which I did find but the price was way up there $500 and more. But I,m pretty set on starting the CNC overhead gantry mill I,m planning.

[saris]

Designing the enclosure now for the new mill:

[saris]

And almost finished :

[digits]

And almost finished :

Looking good

How do you plan to cut the acrylic for the sides - that stuff seems like a nightmare to me

[ZipSnipe]

When cutting acrylic, theres is a cutting tool for it(not tooo expensive). Simply place your straight edge where your cutting and on your first pass , do it lightly. This gives you a light little scratch so the next pass can follow. Do it too hard on the first pass and you can easily veer off the straight edge. For 1/4 plexi probably a dozen passes as you get near the final ones you can gouge it pretty hard and then snap it quickly.

[saris]

The acrylic panels are all straigth sides, no notches or anything, just angles on the side panels...

Yea the acrylic scoring tool is what ill use, the cut also doesnt have to be too pretty or perfect, since the cut edge is enclosed by the 8020 lip...

[digits]

The acrylic panels are all straigth sides, no notches or anything, just angles on the side panels...

Yea the acrylic scoring tool is what ill use, the cut also doesnt have to be too pretty or perfect, since the cut edge is enclosed by the 8020 lip...

Thanks - what cross-section of aluminium extrusion are you going to use? I am considering 40x40 for my own enclosure, but it might be overkill.

Also, are you planning to run flood coolant with that enclosure, and how much sound deadening will acrylic give you? I'd really like an enclosure that meant I could
mill without ear defenders!

[saris]

yea 40mm extrusions may be overkill, but it'll be sturdy! You can really get away with their lowest extrusion, the 1010 stuff (1"), since the enclosure isnt supporting anything except its own weight, and the acrylic. Ill prob go with the 1515 (1.5") stuff

As far as noise mitigation is concerned, for me its just gravy, really want the coolant contained, and the mess of chips everywhere.

I dunno, anyone have a formula for decibel reduction using 1/8" or 3/16" acrylic vs say glass would be? I'd guess about 10-15db??