[kreutz]

This is the update for the closed thread HobbyCNC Pro Board went "South"!

I checked the board. The problem was caused by an intermittent copper trace between the LM317 and the 250 ohm resistor, the connection was defective, probably a defective PCB board from the beginning. The open circuit was not near any component's pads, where soldering or re soldering stress might break it, and it was under a layer of solder-mask.

This problem manifested itself as 10 volt present in the 5 volt circuit, frying one of the driver ICs whose Vcc pin was found to have 6 ohm to ground. This fact triggered the current limit feature of the lm317 showing as only a few hundred millivolt in the 5 volt test point

Even after taking out the driver IC the intermittent connection was not easy to find since it manifested only when power was applied. Measuring continuity (without power) it appeared to be OK.

The board is already up and running after replacing the LM317 (necessary because I needed access to repair the defective trace connection), the two 74HC14 and four Driver ICs damaged by the 10 volts in the 5 volt circuit.

I don't think HobbyCNC approach to solve his customer's crisis is a good business solution. How much did they save?, about $40.00? How much will it cost them in "Bad Advertisement"? The board was bought about two months before.

When the customer (jhowelb) tried to solve the problem he was offered some help (see thread "HobbyCNC Pro Board went "South"! ), but when it did not solve the problem he was left with the option of buying a new one or live with the loss. If their policy is not to give their customers the schematics as they are "proprietary information" they should have a very good technical support and be ready to do "extra effort" to keep their customers satisfied.

HobbyCNC knew from the early symptoms that there was a short circuit somewhere else on the board. They designed the board, so they knew that the LM317 current limiting circuit was tripped. A short circuit on the load does not damage the LM317, so they knew that either one or more of the driver chips or the 74HC14 was probably damaged, since the customer told them he reviewed all the solderings on the board and did not find a short circuit. Going the "extra mile" should have been offering him to take a look at the problem in order to find out if it really was a defective PCB, and not their decision of blaming it all on the customer.

What is the message sent to HobbyCNC potential customers elsewhere? Now, thanks to HobbyCNC attitude during this incident, they know that the kit they are considering buying is a disposable part. If it works, Congratulations!, if it doesn't just discard it and assume the loss.

By the way, I did not even know who their customer was before this incident. I do not have any relationship with their competitors either. My only one experience with HobbyCNC, recently, was a positive one. As I said in the original thread I respect their decision to consider their product's schematics a "proprietary information". I nevertheless consider that any buyer should be treated with respect and concern for his/her issues, even when the warranty (if any) is already expired. I don not think I am asking too much from a business that intends to grow.

I hope that they, as anyone of us, will learn from their mistakes, and that this will be an opportunity for them to show all the CNC community that they take our concerns as their own and will walk the extra mile with us.

[jhowelb]

Thank you so much, sir.
You are indeed a gentleman and your generosity is truely astonishing as is your electronic tallents.
Just one more disclamer, this man lives on the East Coast while I live in California. I first "met" him on the above mentioned thread and to this day I have no idea what he looks like.
Members like him make membership in CNCZone very much worth while, quite a relief from "flame and put down" of some.
Again, thank you!

[HobbyCNC]

kreutz
How much did they save?, about $40.00? How much will it cost them in "Bad Advertisement"? The board was bought about two months before....

I guess jhowelb forgot to let anyone know we did refund his money, all of it including shipping. We also sent replacement parts for him to try via Priority Mail. Instead he sends the board to a "White Knight" without giving us a chance to troubleshoot it in person. IF the PCB was in fact flawed, WE would have liked to see it. And I KNOW our board house would like to see it also. We use the best in the business USA manufacture, no offshore vendor who cares about quality. That's why we pay more for them.

Didn't you post a schematic of a driver board that uses an Allegro chip on CNCzone of your own design? Answer: yes.

HobbyCNC.com

[jhowelb]

Refer to post 31, http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...t=25776&page=3 you threw me under the bus right there.
From the beginning you were beligerent and condescending toward me. You never offered anything more than some power chips which were doomed to failure.
You did refund the older (cheaper $69.00) board that you all sent instead of the second new ($100.00) one I ordered. That still left me with a usless board and a hundred bucks in the hole.
BTW the "white knight" paid the freight both ways, bought the parts and made the repairs and won't take a dime for it. In the process, I sent him a burned out board belonging th a youngster down the street. He fixed it also...also free!
I guess he is just a bigger, better man. Go ahead, throw more rocks at him and show us exactly what kind of person you are.
And no, I don't want anything else from you or to do with you. Just setting the record right.

[kreutz]

Didn't you post a schematic of a driver board that uses an Allegro chip on CNCzone of your own design? Answer: yes.

hobbycnc;

No, I haven't ever posted here any schematics including any Allegro's part. I posted an schematic using discrete components intended as a learning exercise for another person in the forum, (under the thread http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25361 ), and since I do not plan to make any money of it, will post complete schematics and gerbers after testing the design. I will not publish a design using the Allegro parts only for respect to your business (and, by the same token, will not publish in this forum any schematics including the same drivers that any other business, serving this community, is using). I don't believe any of your potential customers is going to try our discrete design either.

I do respect you as a provider of good drivers for many of the guys here. I also respect your business and will never try to diminish you, your products or your services to this community. My only experience dealing with your company, as I said before, was a positive experience.

If you read the original thread you will see that I offered my help even before you were involved.

Instead he sends the board to a "White Knight" without giving us a chance to troubleshoot it in person

I did not see any posting asking him to send you the board for inspection, otherwise I would have left the normal course to flow and the story would have had another happy ending.

I did not post the FYI in order to attack you or your company but with the sincere intention that this situation will not repeat in the future with any other person or company. I believe that mutual respect, in any kind of relationship, leads to Peace.

I do also believe your PCBs are made with quality. But even the best board house and QC can miss an intermittent trace. I missed it too when I first inspected the board. It is a shame I did not take a photo of the problem zone for you to show to your provider. I don't think is their fault either since the original copper clad could have had that little fissure on it instead of that being a defect on the mask. Otherwise you had already known of a similar problem from other customers.

I am glad you replied on this thread and that we all could help change the image the involved parties, and this incident, left on the rest of this community.

I think you and jhowelb should talk in private and straighten this misunderstanding, but it is really up to you both to try to do that.

Thanks.

[Pres]

I feel sorry for Dave. He seems to be his own worst 'customer'.
For example:
Not give his customers the schematics as they are "proprietary information".
A potential competitor will spend the time to generate a schematic from the board - it's not a problem.
The only one that is really hurt from that policy is his dear customers.
They just want to get it running again asap and not have to spend days getting it 'fixed'.
A schematic can really help a customer get up running, or at least figure out whats wrong. Any time, day or night, Saturday or Sunday.

Next he abandons this much superior forum for the Yahoo approach.

Personally, I am getting prepared to buy all the components necessary to cnc another machine and wanted to make the most informed selection using some HobbyCNC components and ensure compatibility with my other items.
Imho, one good way to do that is also join his Yahoo forum and read some users experiences.
However, he "declined" my membership - ostensibly because I'm not already a customer.
(& probably won't be now)

Dave, you are probably an excellent electronics engineer but I feel your business acumen certainly needs more R&D!

Good luck,
Pres

[toneV8]

However, he "declined" my membership in Yahoo forum - ostensibly because I'm not already a customer.
Pres

Me too

[Mariss Freimanis]

I would think if something is a kit a schematic must be provided. You're building it after all, you need a roadmap to see what you are doing, where you are and where you are going.

Heathkit always had circuit diagrams and even circuit function descriptions for every kit. These described in clear detail how and why a circuit worked. Some was proprietary I'm sure only because some of the circuits were very clever in design. That's how I started in electronics and no, I never ripped a Heathkit circuit off.

No need, they worked and I learned a lot.

If you offer a kit, you invite the builder of that kit to be a participant in it's successful completion. A schematic can be vital for that. If you offer a finshed off-the-shelf product complete and ready for use, you don't have that obligation.

Any semi-competent engineer can reverse engineer even a user-unfriendly board as ours. Not a kit board for sure. For a kit, hobbling a 1,000 honest builders in the foolish hope of foiling a single pirate copier by witholding a schematic makes poor sense.

A copier doesn't need a schematic. He'll make his own in less time than it takes an average builder to assemble a kit. More likely he won't even bother; he'll just copy the PCB, parts list and call it a day.

Mariss

[tq9516pjm]

"I feel sorry for Dave. He seems to be his own worst 'customer'."
I also have had bad experience with Dave.
Agreed - his business and 'people' skills are very poor. Everything seems to be the customers fault.
I have learned and do not do business with hobby-CNC anymore.

Dave - when will you learn to respect your customers? They are the ones that keep employed? What don't you understand?

[pminmo]

I do respect his right to do business his way. His kits are advertised as kits. I haven't seen him badmouth other competators products. Personally I like to deal with people differently, but I respect his choices. I think it would be difficult to distinguish between a legitimate problem a customer is having and somebody that has taken on assembling a kit with a 100watt soldering gun.

As far as schematics go, maybe it should be advertised that the kits don't come with them. On the other hand, with the chips involved, simply picking up a data sheet and looking at it gets you 80 percent of the way there.

[kreutz]

I understand that most of his customers are not electronic technicians but people trying to run a CNC machine. So I think his legitimate decision of not offering the schematics does not have much impact upon his customers. Most of them don't really intend to learn from the kit, but use them as a quick and cheap solution to fulfill their necessity of getting the right stepper drivers with the minimum of $$.

I also agree that anyone with a minimal electronics background can reverse-engineer the boards in order to repair them by using only the Allegro data-sheets.

I think it would be difficult to distinguish between a legitimate problem a customer is having and somebody that has taken on assembling a kit with a 100watt soldering gun.

I had the assembly instructions on my hands and they were instructive and well done, if I am not mistaken, he specifies the kind of soldering iron to use as well as the soldering wire. Adding some photos of the process would have being even better, but it is his business. I have not read any complains about the assembly process.

High resolution photos of the assembled board (both sides) is enough feedback to determine if the problem could be due to a bad soldering technique and/or tools.

I don't even think he was trying to save some money. The problem was not really going to be solved no matter how many parts he sent to the customer without taking the board back to him. It is easier to assemble the board without much experience than to desolder multi-pin parts on a double sided board using the same tools, even for an experienced individual. And he knows this fact.


I think the whole issue was mishandled and escalated due to misunderstanding and bad communication between the parties involved. The fact that it was handled on a public forum instead of being kept private made things worse.

Because he is not reading this forum, this is my last post on this issue. I don't think this mistake should be taken into account. He is an intelligent guy, I know he already knows how to handle similar issues in the future.

[tcr3670]

I seen this and just had to voice my experience with Dave. I have purchased several of his boards and find his KIT to be very understandable. Have never had a problem and I am a novice. I have also purchased from his so called competition and I have to say in my opinion for $79.00 he has a hell of a product that can not be matched by any of the competition as the competition doesn't even come close in terms of quality and value. I guess you could say the reason for the bad press from the competition is simply that they are competing with HobbyCNC as HobbyCNC really doesn't have any competition simply put.

[jhowelb]

I seen this and just had to voice my experience with Dave. I have purchased several of his boards and find his KIT to be very understandable. Have never had a problem and I am a novice. I have also purchased from his so called competition and I have to say in my opinion for $79.00 he has a hell of a product that can not be matched by any of the competition as the competition doesn't even come close in terms of quality and value. I guess you could say the reason for the bad press from the competition is simply that they are competing with HobbyCNC as HobbyCNC really doesn't have any competition simply put.

How long have you been working for Dave?

[ivirscar]

ALL the parts and single PCB COMBINED probably cost Dave around $30.00 as I'm sure he purchases in bulk and has the fine folks in Silicon Valley manufacture at least 100 boards at a time... Maybe $6.00 per board, $150.00 tooling fee and another $100.00 setup fee... After selling each kit for $100.00 if I read it right, his profit margin is quite spongy! In my honest opinion, if I were him... I'd EAT the $30.00 that that sale cost me and SWIFTLY ship out a replacement - NO QUESTIONS ASKED
I'm in the electronics business... www.knight-f2k4.com and certainly know the "in's and out's" of PCB manufacture and component purchasing.


Brenon

[NGinuity]

Didn't you post a schematic of a driver board that uses an Allegro chip on CNCzone of your own design? Answer: yes.

No offense intended at all sir, but controlling a stepper motor with Allegro stepper drivers and Schmitt triggers (I believe I saw hex Schmitt trigger IC's on yours) is not exactly a "proprietary idea" either. Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's a very basic design you are applying to the kits you sell, so why not have the schematics for distribution? Someone could probably design their own schematic, without looking at your design, and it would come out almost exactly the same.

[tcr3670]

Hello to all

I am just a satisfied customer voicing my experience. I do not work for Dave.
Their are a lot of good products out their on the market. The Gecko drives are probably by far the most popular.
I own some of the Gecko drives as well Kick Butt servo drives can't say enough. They are beyond my expectations.

Also NGinuity who are you referring to? I am not Dave and what on Earth are you talking about?

[Arthur Clampitt]

Seems that there are a lot of people here who want to purchase an inexpensive kit and expect a fully QC'ed result , Possible , but only if you are capable of doing the Quality Contol yourself !!

Ivirscar's "estimate " of the costings is interesting , If I could get a board of that quality and size with the components needed for $30 all up, I'd already be marketing it !! , No that's not true , Having to repair and refurbish boards returned to me by my customers , ( Who assure me that they employ qualified technicians ) Makes me realise that if "qualified technicians" can make such a total pigs ear of simple repairs on a pre existing board , I really don't want to know what sort of job the "unqualified" can do. ( I now do most of the repairs and servicing myself for my customers as it works out cheaper for them that way )

Possibly Hobbycnc should offer the ( pretty much standard) "If it don't work, send it back, at your cost, and we'll put it together properly" at a standard rate, However I feel that many constructors would baulk at the cost. It would however save the bad press :-)

Really it's a question of "caveat emptor" Don't buy a kit if you are not capable of assembling it and fault finding it yourself !! , However A fault like the one described :-
"Even after taking out the driver IC the intermittent connection was not easy to find since it manifested only when power was applied. Measuring continuity (without power) it appeared to be OK."
would tax many professionals and would not have shown up even if the boards were continuity tested by the PCB house.

I really do not see that Hobbycnc ( or any other kit supplier) can be expected to assume that when a client has a problem , it is a rather esoteric PCB fault rather than the usual soldering things in the wrong way around, solder bridges, reverse polarity or ( my personal favorite ) powering up on the bench with a bed of component lead clipping under the board !!

[Arthur Clampitt]

Apologies for double post , suffering from fast finger syndrome :-)

Anyway final comment on long and rambling post

jhowelb has been shown to be entirely blameless , kreutz shown to be a "white knight" ( and pretty impressive fault finder !)

Hobbycnc supplies a good product ( My board went together withou any problems and is a "lovely bit of kit" and excellent value for money ) , but he may be a little too confident in his PCB supplier :-) . I'm sure over the years he's had more than enough customers who have complained that the board "just stopped working " , omitting the fact that it " just stopped working" at around the time they connected it the wrong way around etc :-) The customer may always be right , but he's also not going to admit he screwed up ( Not the case of jhowelb ) And I'm sure that that is the case in 999 out of 1000 failures , In this case ( the 1 in 1000 !) a genuine , and difficult to spot, PCB manufacturing fault , assuming it was the usual customer screwup was a bad but totally understandable reaction

And , no I do not have any connection with Hobbycnc except as a one time satisfied customer !

[NGinuity]

Also NGinuity who are you referring to? I am not Dave and what on Earth are you talking about?

Kindly sir, if you look at the quote in my post, I was reffering to hobbycnc. I was not being deragatory, nor condescending, but objective nonetheless.

[ivirscar]

...Ivirscar's "estimate " of the costings is interesting , If I could get a board of that quality and size with the components needed for $30 all up, I'd already be marketing it !! , No that's not true , Having to repair and refurbish boards returned to me by my customers , ( Who assure me that they employ qualified technicians ) Makes me realise that if "qualified technicians" can make such a total pigs ear of simple repairs on a pre existing board , I really don't want to know what sort of job the "unqualified" can do. ( I now do most of the repairs and servicing myself for my customers as it works out cheaper for them that way )...

Maybe you should research better purchasing avenues