[LeeWay]

Guys, I have a real need for an automated cnc lathe. I have my little 80/20 lathe I built a few years back. It works fine, but has no auto chuck closer or bar puller/feeder. This means each cycle has to be started by hand. I need at least 300 turned parts each week. Sometimes a little more. Now that I have 4 positions on y Pulsar mill, that makes up for some lost time doing tool changes on it. It's time to tackle the other labor hog in the shop. The lathe.
I was intending to upgrade the 80/20 lathe, but think I will go a different route instead. Build a new lathe using the parts from the Torus. As you may know, it caught fire last year and had to be replaced. Ergo the Pulsar in the shop.
The insurance company finally released it to me last week to dispose of. John has seen detailed pictures and thinks it is too far gone to rebuild to try and recoup any money. So, totaled.
Some of the discussion about this is posted at the end of the 80/20 lathe thread here.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...ml#post1710328

I picked up an old Hardinge DV-59 spindle head from Ebay for $399.00 plus shipping. Here is an image.



I intend to use the X and Y table off the Torus. Probably the stand too. I would mount the spindle at the end of the Y axis. Opposite where the column is. Not like a 4th axis. The spindle head requires a motor down below. Not only that but I am sure it is too heavy for the dovetails on the table of the Torus. Then I would still need a table and Z axis.
So, using Y as Z axis and the table as the X or cross slide, this will give me a bunch of room for gang tooling and accessories.
I would remove the column and spindle head from the Torus.
This build will allow me to keep using my lathe while I build this one.

I will moch it up in CAD art some point. Thoughts are welcome guys.

[LeeWay]

Next obvious question. How do I get rid of a bunch of rust on cast iron? Electrolosis? Most of this table rust came from the fire extinguisher. That chemical rusted everything in the shop. I do have some chemicals left that I have been using, so will try it in the nooks and crannies. The flat spots don't concern me much. They are easy.
I will have to get it all torn apart and get some measurements going when the spindle head arrives. Then I will know more about how to design the frame and get it welded up.

I am fairly sure that the X motor survived and the Y motor did not. Z is also gone. The spindle motor may have survived. Not sure. I have a spare spindle motor here that needs an encoder. I would trust it more than I would the one in the machine.
I am considering using it. It really all depends on the difficulty of adding a timing pulley to the Harding Head. I can imagine that may be a challenge itself.


I built the 80/20 lathe specifically to do my production parts. I would set this one up to do more than that of course. Hey, this may turn out to be the first prototype Novakon lathe.
Look out Tormach. (Tongue in cheek guys. Tongue in cheek)

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Lee,

Personally, I think you'd be MUCH better off either buying the Tormach lathe (it is very nice, BTW - I'd love to have one), or at least buying a good manual lathe and converting it. Converting the rusted hulk of your old Torus to a CNC lathe sounds to me like a massive investment in time and money that will likely not have a terribly satisfactory outcome.

Also, have you considered outsourcing those parts? You'd be surprised how cheaply you can have them made. Go to mfg.com, create a free account, and post an RFQ. I often find I can have such parts made for less than my cost for raw materials, even in small quantities.

Regards,
Ray L.

[kvom]

The Tormach lathe looks good to me too. Only downside is no auto collet closer, but apparently Tormach is working on that (according to the knife maker whose videos show the lathe in operation).

Novakon did have a lathe in the works, but John apparently pulled it from the plans. I saw the prototype at his shop last year. Has a D1 type spindle mount.

[LeeWay]

Thanks a bunch, Guys.
The Tormach is definitely still on the table. I could not hope to cobble up a machine close to it's capability. I am waiting on the auto closer feature for sure. Then I will let someone else road test it to get the kinks out.
By the time all that is under the bridge and I order, setup and get familiar with it, another year could pass.

I will check out that and submit an RFQ. I can't imagine the parts would cost more than what I am currently paying my Son to make them. I'll give a follow up on that too.

I did talk to John briefly. I seem to recall the mention of a Novakon lathe prototype that got stalled out. I wasn't aware that he actually had it in the shop though.

I will know a lot more about the value of this once I tear it apart. If the dovetails look anything like the top, then it is a useless hunk of cast iron. And they probably do look that way. Everything in the shop rusted. That was a chore just derusting everything else.

[mklotz70]

Rust removal.....the cheapest way for large parts is the molasses method....but it's also the slowest. It can take a week or two for it to ferment enough to be really effective, then maybe another week to take the rust off. You'd just mix it up and put the part in from the start.

Electrolysis is line of sight to the electrodes, so rust can stay in the shadows, nooks and crannies. The Evaporust at HF works really well and you can dilute it, but it's about $23/gal.....can start adding up on large parts.

I think it would be easier to figure out an air cylinder to activate the closer on the tormach lathe than going the scratch built route. I'm curious to hear what you find out on the outsourcing.

[kvom]

You want to fire your son?

[LeeWay]

Yeah. I looked under the table and took a few pictures. It doesn't look new anymore.
The Y axis the way it is may have survived pretty well, but the table and ball screw did not.

The only easy way to clean that up would be to plug the table drains and pour the chemical in there to eat that T slot rust out.
Then machine the dovetails off the bottom for use with linear rails. The saddle looks to have enough meat on it to mount the trucks.
The logical place to mount the head would be where the column sits now too. Problem there is the Y axis ball screw and motor go right through there. No place to install a motors belting. This is looking less and less like a project I would really like to tackle right now.
I may save the table as much as I can for future use in something. Remove the rust and moth ball it. Same with the rest of the machine. Still has to be torn apart to do anything with. I need my shop space back.

I will post follow ups as I determine which end is up.

The RFQ process over there is pretty easy. Diann helped me through it.

Here is some of what I found on the Torus. Kinda brings a tear to my eyes to look at. :drowning:

- - - Updated - - -

You want to fire your son?

Can't! He would just move back home. Which would be okay if it was just the Grand daughter. She took her first steps yesterday.

[LeeWay]

He is an image of some of our tuned parts.
The long narrow black ones are what we need the most of. All are turned from solid stock.

[LeeWay]

Well, guys, I went so far as to request a quote on the Tormach. I am thinking I would not want the turret or the full enclosure.
I am sure I will be wanting to make some other than production parts with it, but I would really have to get talked into it being worth an additional $5G. I have been watching the Tormach forum and I am not yet convinced.

I doubt I would even bother hooking up coolant for some time.
Just keeping my options open.


The Tormach site is a bit confusing on the issues I think.
I was not aware that the gang tooling kit did not come with the basic machine. Once all the stuff was in the cart and then add that, the basic turret kit and enclosure system is only about $1000.00 more.
That is in the ball park.

[MichaelHenry]

Lee - could you use an air-operated chuck like the ones by Northfield?

I'd re-think the full enclosure for the Tormach lathe - that looks awfully handy to have to me.

[LeeWay]

Thanks, Michael.
I am in on the encloure and turret. I should have researched a lot more before I made that statement.

Not too long ago, the computer was close to $800 extra. I see that it comes included now and has Path Pilot. Thats cool. I was thinking that the basic machine came with the slot table, QCTP etc. I was wrong on that part. It doesn't say how it's actually equipped anywhere, so you have to kinda play Sherlock Holmes with it. Deduce it.
The easy way of course would be to contact them directly. I am just not quite that far along yet, though I have jumped down off the fence. Just tasting the grass right now.
I will look into Northfield as well.
Thanks for the info guys.
Keep it coming. A well informed decision is a better decision.

[LeeWay]

When I initially considered using the mill base, I had hopes. I blame the way that it looks now on the Insurance company though. At least partially. They told me not to touch it until after the forensic investigation was complete. Then I was told I could move it out of the shop into storage in my open ended garage. Then not to touch it. Well all that and South Alabama humidity will take a toll, especially when chemically started. That much is obvious. If I am lucky, I may get a few spare parts for the Pulsar off of it. Not much else though. I just hate to see good machinery go to waste. Especially when it is so precious and hard to come by. Which is the case when you are building a company that stays in the black most of the time and likes it like that.

[tmarks11]

I was thinking that the basic machine came with the slot table, QCTP etc. I was wrong on that part.

If you get the turret, you can skip the QCTP and mount. That is something you could build/add far cheaper anyhow on your own. And the slot table is only needed if you want gang tooling... again, with the turret, you can skip that. Looking at the parts you are making, 8 tools should be plenty to start with.

Go for it!

We are here to help you spend your money! No need to say thanks....

[kvom]

Given the photo of the parts, a gang tool setup makes sense vs. the turret. Cheaper and faster as well.

[LeeWay]

I use three tools right now to make all these parts. Could use 2 for the bulk of them. Drills and a parting tool.
I do recall a few times that I had to turn something and rather than mess with changing tools on my lathe, I would just use a small manual lathe. It is sitting now needing a motor. I do on occasion need to tap or thread some turned parts, so a turret would come in handy I think.
It would already be half full with a bar puller mounted in it.
There is no doubt that gang tooling is fast and you would think it is a lot cheaper, but by the time you buy everything to have as many tools as the turret provides, you are right up there within about $1000.00 of the turret and full enclosure price.

[kvom]

From the videos it appears that the rapids on the Tormach lathe are slow. If a turret tool change requires returning to the home position then the ops might be too slow for efficiency.

[MichaelHenry]

Lee - I think that the controller is now included in the base price for the lathe, though confirm if its important. Someone from Tormach advised me that gang tooling makes a better match for the turret than does the QCTP and I think that they have a QC (of sorts) gang tool holder.

Mike

[LeeWay]

On the quote from Tormach, they separate the controller from the basic machine. So the computer is included in the price on the website.
Still not certain what I will do. I am getting a few quotes in for these parts. I am getting pricing less than half a buck to more than 2. Not including shipping. That is the 1000 ct pricing. This is what I expected, but does lead me to think an investment in a lathe would be a better long term choice.
The cost to buy these parts would be more than a machine payment each month.
Still unsure about the Turret vs gang tooling. I do like the full enclosure.

[rowbare]

Tormach also has a short gang plate which I believe is meant to work with the turret. If the tool change speed is an issue, you could use that for the higher volume jobs and the turret for more complex work.

Another option for a lathe might be one of the GT machines you see on eBay from Dynamic Machine or OmniTurn. Some of these have power chucks.

I think the rust looks a lot worse than it is. For the ballscrew, I would soak some rags in Evaporust, wrap them around the screw and wrap the works in plastic. You have to keep it wet but it does a remarkable job in not too much time.This could be done in place if you can't remove the screw without running the rusted portion through the nut. The screw may be too far gone for use in a mill or lathe but might be quite serviceable as the basis for an automatic feeder for a saw or something of the sort.

Because of the size, I suggest using electrolytic removal for the table. Get a piece of expanded steel for use as an electrode, bend in a U shape if needed to minimise line of sight effects. Put it in the bottom of a tub with a few plastic standoffs to support the the table and let the electricity do its magic.

bob