[Sebastian_A]

I'm looking to purchase a small CNC machine, and hoped I could get some suggestions here. I'm a product designer with good experience designing for machines, but little experience running one. So I am after a unit with good support in Australia that won't require an enormous learning curve and will have plenty of community support. So I suppose that means something quite common and broadly compatible with all the things.

It's mainly for prototyping and low production runs of small plastic parts (acetal, acetate, etc.), but the ability to machine aluminium jigs would be fabulous.

Requirements:
- Less than $25,000 including all the accessories
- Build area only needs to be 200mm square, 50mm tall
- Good software integration with Solidworks
- Works a range of plastics and able to give a very smooth finish on them (so, a mechanical resolution of over 0.001mm I presume? Does that mean high spindle speed too?)
- Not gigantic

Wishlist (what I want but don't absolutely need if it breaks the budget):
- enclosure
- 4th axis
- Ability to mill aluminium, even if slowly
- Tool changer
- less than $20,000!

So far my research has turned up a few leads, but nothing ideal.

1) Roland seem to make some good machines, although I feel I fall through the cracks between their rather wimpy, affordable MDX-40 and their awesome, much more expensive MDX-540 series. A second hand MDX-540 perhaps? Is there such thing as a souped up MDX-40?

2) There seem to be some good value boutique machines in the US (eg. Minitech Mini-Mills, Tormach), but I'm weary of owning an exotic machine in AU.

3) I've had some suggestions of getting a made-in-china unit, but in this case I'm afraid of needing to know a lot to get good results.

4) I am weakly considering it worth paying someone to build a custom machine, as long as it's affordable to pay for the machine AND some ongoing support within the budget. What sort of dosh does that require?

Has anyone got any suggestions? Should I post this in a more general forum perhaps?

Thanks people, I really appreciate any comment, suggestion or advice

(I hope this isn't a redundant post - After trawling through many a discussion, I thought it best to ask my own question, particularly due to the varying availability of desktop CNC machines in Australia.)

[alexlee]

Dear sir
Hi,Good day,This is alex from China,JINAN SUDIAO cnc manufacture
We have a model of small cnc maybe meet your need,Heavy Duty cast steel table structure,0.001mm postion.
I will send you more detail if you are interested in.
Skype:whitecoffee_alex
Whatsapp:+86 18668926716
Attachment 282890

[hanermo]

About the only machines remotely within your goal are the Tormachs, imo.
They will mill alu very easily.

A custom machine would be much better, and much more costly, way over budget.
(Much) better components are cheap, very cheap even, but the work-hours double your budget.

A Tormach would certainly do good results out-of-box, fwiw, in plastics and alu.
Using the right tools as in right type of end mills etc is critical, and will cost as much or more as the machine, over time.

[Tkamsker]

I think you need to tighten you r requirements about the finnish for Instance or 0.001 mm ?
I Do also some molds for plastic in Alu where i need Good finnish 0,05 mm Did it for me i have a heiz german quality.
I Do vmc mills aß Well so if you need 0.001 it is possible But These spindles Are Grinded etc .... cu Thomas

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[Sebastian_A]

Thanks for the suggestions.

To be honest I'm not entirely certain of how the resolution relates to finish. I'm beginning to think 0.001mm is overkill when I look at the price and size of machines able to achieve it. It might be better to phrase it the other way around - I am keen to get as good a smooth finish on detailed work as I can afford within my price range. Eg. I'd sacrifice aluminium capabilities for a significant increase in smoothness. I'd love to get a full VMC but am assuming it's basically out of my range.

Understanding you get a good finish on a mould tool with 0.05mm is a helpful guide - thanks. I assume that would be on the flat, rather than a curved surface.

Hanermo, yes, I can imagine that the man hours get expensive very quickly on a CNC build. Have you had good experience with Tormach? Which have you used and how would you compare it to, for example, the Roland MDX-540 (double the price and then some)?

[Tkamsker]

Hi if you can send me an foto closeup what you understand as Finnish would help i think
see what i have done Attachment 282908 this is the router type of mill which i did use for alu brass and now mainly for wood and pcb milling
Attachment 282910 i did molds what i learned that it is about software the tool paths are the key because i did Attachment 282912 airfoils with it So i mold 1 form and do x wings with it
Attachment 282914 i don't know if this Finnish is sufficient for you , what i added then was an tool changer ( cheap ) Attachment 282916 where i did an brass bearing. Now i use it to 95% for pcb milling Attachment 282918 the brass Finnish came out verry nice ,..
it is just my 5 cents i don't sell the german machines but soon i sell austrian made VMC mills which may be also ok for you and i can put any spindle in you need ,..
but that is another story because i might not be able to support you as well as an haas or australian vendor would be able to ,..
But maybe if you spend 4-5k Euro you get an machine which does 95% of what you asked for ,..

cu
thomas

[dharmic]

The killer in your spec is the 200mm Y depth. It eliminates a lot of ready-to-go machines like the SIEG KX3 and puts you more in the realms of the Tormachs, the gantry machines and the floor standing knee mill conversions from what I can see.

I'm in a similar boat myself at the moment - I'm after something with a much bigger run on X and Z but the Y seems to be the killer. Considering an Optimum MH-28V from Hare and Forbes (machineryhouse.com.au) with the whole gut and replace leadscrews etc process, or biting the bullet and going for the BM-30A (bigger, heavier, better on aluminium and steel) and motorising that, or doing a custom gantry. But I'd rather be using one than building one!

[Sebastian_A]

The killer in your spec is the 200mm Y depth.

Ah! Well thanks for pointing that out, as that Y depth is negotiable. I was not expecting that to make a difference. If the X is 200mm, then I could take a hit on the Y, down to as low as 80mm even. And I note Sieg is available in Australia. That is a good tip, thanks.

Yes, I am also strongly in favour of something that works out of the box.

EDIT:
Looks like the Sieg is actually no longer available here, and by the looks of reviews is probably too close to the hobbyist end of the spectrum for my application.

[Sebastian_A]

Hi if you can send me an foto closeup what you understand as Finnish would help i think
see what i have done ....

The finish in most of those photos looks ok, although less so on the circle with 3 prongs. It is hard to tell from small photos. What I need the best finish on is generally plastic. The aluminium would be mostly for jigs.

Any yes, I'd be keen to get local service, particularly on a custom machine. Thanks though, it's helpful to get an idea of what you get for your dollar on a purpose built set-up.

[jackieshen118]

Hey there

This is Jackie from jinshengxing machinery back in China .We have been manufacturing CNC Router machines no matter big or small for more than 14 years .

If you couldn't find a suitable machine from your local suppliers or the price is too high ,maybe you can think about it get one from China .

If it ever happens ,Jinshengxing can offer an extra option .

My email :[email protected] ,SKYPE: Jackieshen118 .

Have a nice day .

Jackie

[Tkamsker]

sebastian i tried to say that even if you have a perfect machine save 2 - 5 k € on software and on "plastic" the miller shape is paramount ,... or you could do a lot with high quality router ,..
i do cnc vmc mills based on an proven > 20 years experience ) machine build here in my country if you see the pics (look in my threads abou vmc mills ) there is an heavvy z construction with high quality spindels and heavvy motor if you connect that to servo ( or steppers and feedback ) i guess you have a decent solution. actual we do 180 mm in y because the owner tried 220 but wasnt happy with the results the forces build up. my idea is to do an bigger design of that machines in winter based on cast iron for head and z axis i think you should also make sure the linear bearings are of high quality ( low tolerances )
maxbe look at the novakon ( if they do australia ) and look at the package. the difference for instance is 40€ to 360€ per linear bearing "wagon" per piece ,...


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[awerby]

If the Y travel can be that short, then a Taig mill would probably fit the bill. These are well-built machines that work right out of the box, and can cut metals up to mild steel in hardness. A complicating factor, though, is that you use a different voltage and frequency in your mains current, so you'd need a step-down transformer to run the control box, and a different spindle motor that's designed for 50hz frequency. But the CNC mill with the 4th axis and every accessory they make would be well within your budget, with room to spare for high-end software. I've shipped Taigs to Australia and people there have made them work.

There is a Taig community (although I'm not sure how many Australian members are in it). I don't think there are any Taig repair facilities in Australia, but I doubt that anybody there does warranty work on those Chinese and Japanese machines you're looking at either. None of them, by the way, come anywhere close to holding .001 mm; even measuring that accurately is a bit of a feat.

[Tkamsker]

ah i had to look up prong yes this was just an test about which is best strategy to get the good result ,.. i did use cut2, cut3d deskproto , heekscad and finally i tried rhino cam and bobcad which i now use for lathe and 3d milling . my learning is that you need an accurate machine (which is more expensive ) and if you do small stuff you can even do alu in an router but then tools and speeds are the key to finish. If you do as you wrote small series of pieces then maybe an VMC with servos might be better for your needs . If you do deep cuts (like i had to for one of my things ) then you need an heavy rigid construction like Novakon, BF45,Tormach, Wabeco, Klippfeld Haas, but i would to consider a taig mill or proton for that kind of work
i thought also about service you need. I design my endeavor the way that you shouldn't need any support only spare stuff like tools, vice and so on
Training might also be an issue i took me more than 1 year to know which speeds which strategy and tools (number of flutes angle etc ) giving the results we need.
maybe interesting to read CNC Milling CAM Toolpath Considerations
thomas

[Sebastian_A]

...you'd need a step-down transformer to run the control box, and a different spindle motor that's designed for 50hz frequency.....

... There is a Taig community (although I'm not sure how many Australian members are in it). I don't think there are any Taig repair facilities in Australia, but I doubt that anybody there does warranty work on those Chinese and Japanese machines you're looking at either. ...

...None of them, by the way, come anywhere close to holding .001 mm; even measuring that accurately is a bit of a feat....

Thanks. The Taigs do look a good price for a versatile machine, and there is an Australian supplier, I would avoid anything that required changing out the spindle motor. Considering my lack of experience, and that we need to be up and running quickly, I am hoping to get something to work out of the box.

True. For that reason I think I'll pass on those Chinese units. At least until I know more about what I'm doing.

Yes, I've taken a reality check on that. I'm beginning to understand the differences between repeatability, surface smoothness, movement resolutions, etc. Suffice to say, a machine that can cut a 50mm circle which has an edge smooth to the touch is a base requirement.

[Sebastian_A]

I am considering getting started with a Roland MDX-40A. It meets the basic requirement and looks to be easy to get up and running. Then if I get more sophisticated, I can spend more money when I know better what I need. Likely to have a good resale on a Roland I expect.

What are people's experience with these mid-range Rolands? (I'd get the MDX-540 but i expect the budget can't reach it.)

[Tkamsker]

Hi,
looks verry good i had an look at the specs Roland DG HOME >> Products >> 3D >> Milling Machines MODELA PROII MDX-540 Series >> Specifications
personally i think for wood and soft "plastic" 400W Motor will be ok but for Alu or hard plastic i guess 1000W is minimum
So if there is an option for stronger motor (and bigger bearings) go for it.
I think with that package you get service an ready to go thing is for sure an good investment
i would then be interested on your learning curve what after lets say 3 or 6 months use you think ,.. thomas

[awerby]

The Roland MDX-40 is recommended for soft materials only; aluminum and other metals shouldn't be used. This is not only because the spindle lacks enough torque to handle it (there's no stronger motor offered by Roland, and it's not trivial to replace, as is the case with the Taig), but the open frame underneath the cutting action is not designed to deal with metal swarf, which can pack in there and jam the mechanism.

[The Engine Guy]

The Denford machines are of excellent quality, UK company, check their site here Denford Ltd Home

Very, very good support both from the factory and via their Forum

Regards
Rob
:rainfro: :rainfro: :rainfro:

[hanermo]

Yes, but why dont they provide pricing ?

The Denford machines are of excellent quality, UK company, check their site here Denford Ltd Home

Very, very good support both from the factory and via their Forum

Regards
Rob
:rainfro: :rainfro: :rainfro:

[RCaffin]

Contact Adept Cim Centre - Home in Queensland for a rebuilt Adept machine. It will probably run Mach3.
It will hold about 10 - 20 microns, and will make the Chinese routers look like cardboard boxes. Soggy ones.
You can mention I sent you. You will have to negotiate on price.

CAD/CAM software is another matter entirely, and entirely separate.

cheers
Roger Caffin