[stumpmonkey]

So I finally got a zeromaster, looks like the cats meow. The heimer has a 10mm shaft so I figured I'd get a quality r8 collet (hardinge) which I paid about $50 for.
The instructions with the heimer tell you to check the runout of the ballend which I did. Long story short it looks like my hardinge collet has almost .003 runout. I find this really shocking but I checked the spindle surfaces and at most they are .0001 out. Just thought I'd post here to see if anyone can think of something I am missing. I checked my cheap chinese r8 collets and they have virtually no runout.
Thanks in advance

[Hirudin]

Are you measuring the runout of the collet or the Haimer?

With a Haimer you have to check and adjust the runout to try to get it as close to 0 as possible. This is because the probe stylus (tip) is screwed on, so it's not accurate. There are some set screws around the top of the Haimer that'll let you adjust the runout out.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to check the collet as well. Ideally you'd put a 10mm gauge pin in there but I bet a 0.394 "-2" gauge pin would work just fine as well.

[popspipes]

Maybe some debris in the collet?

[stumpmonkey]

Collet is clean, made double sure. Initially I was measuring the runout of the haimer. It was out about .008 so I loosened the collet and rotated the haimer, got worse. So I checked the collet with a gauge pin.

[Steve Seebold]

Are you measuring the runout of the collet or the Haimer?

With a Haimer you have to check and adjust the runout to try to get it as close to 0 as possible. This is because the probe stylus (tip) is screwed on, so it's not accurate. There are some set screws around the top of the Haimer that'll let you adjust the runout out.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to check the collet as well. Ideally you'd put a 10mm gauge pin in there but I bet a 0.394 "-2" gauge pin would work just fine as well.

I have had a Haimer got about 16 years and I love it. Yes, I have busted a few tips, but I haven't used an edge finder since I got it.

I got mine from Travers Tool in about 2000 and I think I paid about $450.00 then.

Mine has a 3/4 inch shank.

[Hirudin]

I have had a Haimer got about 16 years and I love it. Yes, I have busted a few tips, but I haven't used an edge finder since I got it.

I got mine from Travers Tool in about 2000 and I think I paid about $450.00 then.

Mine has a 3/4 inch shank.

Oh.

[Gerry Sweetland]

I have had a Haimer got about 16 years and I love it. Yes, I have busted a few tips, but I haven't used an edge finder since I got it.

I got mine from Travers Tool in about 2000 and I think I paid about $450.00 then.

Mine has a 3/4 inch shank.

[WOTDesigns]

3/4 shanks on ebay with anolog face are the way to go. Why Tormach sells the 10mm shank when their entire system is built around 3/4 tooling is beyond me. I just added a tts adapter, then I adult the runout and it's good to go. Adding holders decreases accuracy and increases length

[MichaelHenry]

Collet is clean, made double sure. Initially I was measuring the runout of the haimer. It was out about .008 so I loosened the collet and rotated the haimer, got worse. So I checked the collet with a gauge pin.

Have you adjusted the runout out on the Haimer itself? This procedure has nothing to do with the collet or spindle and the process is discussed in the manual. It sounds like you are checking the wrong things.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Have you adjusted the runout out on the Haimer itself? This procedure has nothing to do with the collet or spindle and the process is discussed in the manual. It sounds like you are checking the wrong things.

But if his collet has runout, then adjusting the Haimer is a complete waste of time - He can adjust it perfectly, and next time he installs it in the spindle, it'll be off again.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

I'd get rid of that crap collet. 0.003" is insane.

I also strongly recommend getting the Tormach low-profile 10mm TTS holder and using it with a 3/4" collet. The best reason to go this route is that the low-profile holder will allow you to register the tool against the spindle nose. Without some kind of registration in Z, the height-finding features of the Haimer are almost useless. Going this route might also save you some money, especially if you can get your $50 back. Thirdly, there's some chance you'll need a 3/4" collet for your first operation anyway, (at least I'd bet it's more likely than 10mm) so you might save yourself a collet change. On top of all that, the shank of the Haimer, which probably isn't easy or cheap to replace, is protected and only the TTS holder will be worn with use. It's like a win - win - win - win situation.

TTS is great, you might consider picking up a few for some of your cutting tools as well. Sure, they have their disadvantages (cost, loss of rigidity) but they are extremely useful. Once I started using them I never turned back.

[Hirudin]

...
Adding holders decreases accuracy and increases length

I'd say the loss of accuracy is negligible, since (as you said) you adjust out the runout.

[Superman]

But if his collet has runout, then adjusting the Haimer is a complete waste of time - He can adjust it perfectly, and next time he installs it in the spindle, it'll be off again.

Regards,
Ray L.

If he removes the Haimer from the holder, it would need zeroing every time......put it in a holder, zero the ruby, and be done with it. It WILL ALWAYS be true....( unless it is roughly handled, broke tip, etc )
- It will be the most used tool & holder combination ..... It would be silly to even consider to break-down this assembly

----similar link for uses

[Hirudin]

If he removes the Haimer from the holder, it would need zeroing every time......put it in a holder, zero the ruby, and be done with it. It WILL ALWAYS be true....( unless it is roughly handled, broke tip, etc )
- It will be the most used tool & holder combination ..... It would be silly to even consider to break-down this assembly

----similar link for uses

The issue here is the OP's crappy collet. As far as runout at the stylus is concerned, he/she will never be able to have confidence in their Haimer until the runout at the collet is mitigated. I suggest that collet gets thrown in the trash (or returned for a refund if possible).

It doesn't matter how many holders are added to the Haimer, once the stack is installed into a crappy collet (in an orientation other than how it was initially setup) its measurements will be inaccurate. The biggest reason to add a TTS holder is to get the most benefit from the Haimer's height measuring functionality. Remember, Tormach spindles do not have rotational registration; the second time a tool is installed into the spindle, the spindle may have rotated 180º compared to the first installation. Any corrections made for a bad collet will double the inaccuracies once the collet/spindle is rotated 180º.

[Superman]

The issue here is the OP's crappy collet. As far as runout at the stylus is concerned, he/she will never be able to have confidence in their Haimer until the runout at the collet is mitigated. I suggest that collet gets thrown in the trash (or returned for a refund if possible).

It doesn't matter how many holders are added to the Haimer, once the stack is installed into a crappy collet (in an orientation other than how it was initially setup) its measurements will be inaccurate. The biggest reason to add a TTS holder is to get the most benefit from the Haimer's height measuring functionality. Remember, Tormach spindles do not have rotational registration; the second time a tool is installed into the spindle, the spindle may have rotated 180º compared to the first installation. Any corrections made for a bad collet will double the inaccuracies once the collet/spindle is rotated 180º.

That's what I'm saying.....assemble the tool...clock the ruby tip true..... DO NOT dis-assemble.....
.....so what if it is a crappy collet....you've adjusted the ruby runout....it is true to the spindle centre line ( that is all it needs to be )
- if the collet ran out 0.020".... but the ruby adjusted to run true.....it is just as accurate as if it was in a perfect collet

If you want to guarantee accuracy of the assembly...It MUST be verified to be running true each time you assemble it.

[Hirudin]

But, as the most used tool, you aren't going to want to continuously correct it for the crappy collet.

Again, Tormach, not Haas. [edit]Actually, I'm assuming the OP has a Tormach, but I may be wrong about that.[/edit]
[edit]With a Tormach...[/edit] the orientation of the spindle is NOT KNOWN when the tool is loaded. Also as a reminder, the collet that is being discussed is the R8 collet in the spindle, not an ER collet in a tool holder.

...I figured I'd get a quality r8 collet (hardinge) which I paid about $50 for.
...it looks like my hardinge collet has almost .003 runout.
...

[mountaindew]

But, as the most used tool, you aren't going to want to continuously correct it for the crappy collet.

Again, Tormach, not Haas. [edit]Actually, I'm assuming the OP has a Tormach, but I may be wrong about that.[/edit]
[edit]With a Tormach...[/edit] the orientation of the spindle is NOT KNOWN when the tool is loaded. Also as a reminder, the collet that is being discussed is the R8 collet in the spindle, not an ER collet in a tool holder.

Agreed!
It is the most used tool and would work best on a tormach with a tts/hamier
You could calibrate the tts/hamier in spindle then place a mark on the hamier and the spindle . In theory you could line up the marks and get pretty close to same orientation.
I seen this in a nycnc video I think. I admit I get enough precision so far that I never had to do this yet!

[GLCarlson]

Remember, Tormach spindles do not have rotational registration; the second time a tool is installed into the spindle, the spindle may have rotated 180º compared to the first installation. Any corrections made for a bad collet will double the inaccuracies once the collet/spindle is rotated 180º.

While I completely agree that the issue is the "crappy collet", I'll observe that if one takes a center punch and pops a dot on one side of the flats on the spindle, one has eliminated (most) of the rotational registration problem- or at least, identified it. There's still a bit of wiggle, but for whatever it's worth, the same side is facing out- if one cares- each time. Or can be. I did this a long time ago, and have no evidence that it's made any difference whatsoever. But...I do try to have the same side of the spindle facing out whenever I change a tool, use the Haimer, etc. Same thing applies if one uses an optical tach, etc- lots of ways to define the "front" of the spindle.

[MichaelHenry]

But if his collet has runout, then adjusting the Haimer is a complete waste of time - He can adjust it perfectly, and next time he installs it in the spindle, it'll be off again.

Regards,
Ray L.

It's hard to believe that a Hardinge collet would have so much runout so I suspect the problem lies elsewhere. A more detailed description of the troubleshooting attempted so far might be illuminating.

[TurboStep]

3/4 shanks on ebay with anolog face are the way to go. Why Tormach sells the 10mm shank when their entire system is built around 3/4 tooling is beyond me. I just added a tts adapter, then I adult the runout and it's good to go. Adding holders decreases accuracy and increases length

Are the 3/4 shank and top flange machined as one piece? I have absolutely no idea, the images in the catalog aren't clear enough but I'd want to find out before simply adding a TTS adapter. The forces pulling the shank up into the spindle will be attempting to pull the shank off the flange. The shank/flange is almost certainly not designed with the intention of handling such forces but if this is all one piece then it should be ok. If I were contemplating this approach I'd want to make sure first.
Mine has a 12mm shank and the corresponding holder. I actually find the increased length to be an advantage. This tool is my zero reference i.e. most tools are shorter and have negative lengths. If I forget to measure a tool (yes it has happened) the length is presumed to be zero and all but the longest tools would cut air.
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