[LeeWay]

Hey guys, I am getting ready to get a new router going. My old router just is not worth fixing up and is really not large enough to do what we will need. It worked great with our old method, but when you ramp up production, things need to change sometimes.
I will be getting the Pro CRP 4824. It will have a small footprint that we need and be able to cut full 24" by 48" sheets of polycarbonate.
This will fit our needs well.
I will be getting the assembled control cabinet as well. Nema 23 version I think.
I built my old router on 2004 and in that time I am on my third PC690 router. It is definitely time for an upgrade in that department as well.
This is what I am looking at.
Hitachi NES1 022SB 3 HP 230 Vac 1 Phase Input VFD w Operator | eBay




Professional GMT Spindle Motor Air Cooled 1 5 KW 2HP 220V ER16 CNC Router Mill | eBay





Will these two items work together?
I have zero experience with these type spindles. I am wanting air cooled because this will be n a shop with AC.
Thanks for any help with this.

[ger21]

Not sure, but most people use the WJ200 model.

AC Drives | Sensorless Vector VFD | WJ200-015SF - Driveswarehouse

AC Drives | Sensorless Vector VFD | WJ200-022SF - Driveswarehouse

[LeeWay]

We currently have another company making our guard parts for us, but recently they more than doubled the price on these. That helped me make my decision to get a new router quite easy.
We could not make them ourselves for the price we were getting, but we certainly can now.

[LeeWay]

Thanks a bunch, Ger.
I found this blurb in an Ebay listing that helped as well.

TIPS AND WARNINGS:


WHATEVER VOLTAGE YOU INPUT TO THE DRIVE THE DRIVE WILL THEN OUTPUT TO THE MOTOR (RUN 208 VOLTS INTO THE DRIVE AND THE DRIVE WILL THEN OUTPUT 208 VOLTS TO THE MOTOR)

TO PROPERLY SIZE YOUR DRIVE TO YOUR MOTOR DO NOT MATCH HORSEPOWER TO HORSEPOWER!! THE PROPER WAY TO SIZE A DRIVE TO YOUR MOTOR IS TO BUY A DRIVE THAT PUTS OUT MORE AMPS THAN THE MOTOR DOES AT FULL LOAD. FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU PLAN TO RUN YOUR MOTOR AT 208 VOLTS LOOK AT WHAT MOTORS FULL LOAD AMP RATING IS AT 208 VOLTS. IF YOUR MOTORS FULL LOAD AMP RATING AT 208 VOLTS IS 10AMPS YOU NEED TO BUY A DRIVE THAT PUTS OUT AT LEAST 10.1 AMPS AT 208 VOLTS.
INPUTTING SINGLE PHASE POWER INTO A 3 PHASE DRIVE WILL DE-RATE THE DRIVES HORSEPOWER AND AMPS TO HALF OF WHAT IT IS RATED. FOR EXAMPLE, A 3 PHASE DRIVE RATED AT 10HP AND 20AMPS WILL BE DE-RATED TO 5HP AND 10AMPS WHEN SINGLE PHASE POWER IS INPUT INTO THE DRIVE. IF THE DRIVE IS RATED FOR SINGLE PHASE OR BOTH INPUTTING SINGLE PHASE WILL NOT DE-RATE THE DRIVE. WHEN A DRIVE IS LISTED AS 3 PHASE DE-RATTING WILL INCUR WITH SINGLE PHASE POWER. WHEN A DRIVE IS LISTED AS SINGLE OR 1 OR 3 PHASE DE-RATTING WILL NOT INCUR.
ALL HITACHI DRIVES, X200'S AND WJ200'S OUTPUT 3 PHASE ONLY!!!! DO NOT ATTEMPT TO HOOK A DRIVE UP TO A SINGLE PHASE MOTOR - YOU WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY!!!
UNLESS YOU ARE A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL IN THE FIELD OF ELECTRICITY AND ELECTRIC MOTORS/DRIVES DO NOT ATTEMPT TO WIRE AND OR INSTALL THIS DRIVE YOURSELF




This Ugra spindle is rated for 6.5 amps and the first VFD in the link you provided is rated for 8 amps.
I think that should work fine according to that blurb.

I also asked for a recommendation from the Ugra spindle seller.
I'll follow up if he gives one.

[LeeWay]

The Ebay seller that sells the UGRA spindles mentioned that Ger's recommendation was a perfect fit for the spindle I am looking at. Thanks a bunch, Ger.

[bhurts]

I use the wj200-022sf on my spindle and its great. The info you listed about needing to de-rate does not apply to this drive. It will run on single phase no problem and is specified with no need to de-rate. You will need to run a dedicated 220 line for the spindle and use a 25amp breaker.

Ben

[LeeWay]

The one I was looking at was the 2 HP model. First link. I am hoping that 2 HP will be good enough. Are you running a 3 HP spindle?
If so, what are your thoughts. Ultimately speed is not an issue on the new machine, but unattended operation is. I can profile the guard sides in two passes if need, but one would certainly be better. The material is .22" polycarbonate. Relatively easy to cut, but takes power. My 2.25 HP PC 690's did not want to cut it at one go, but I think they fudge on the actual HP rating on those. If I went with the 3 HP Ugra model, it would almost double the cost. From just over $700.00 for the 2 HP pair to over $1200.00 for the 3 HP pair. The 3 HP is also a square model, so not sure how that might mount on the CRP PRO Z axis. Just points to ponder. I probably won't order anything until October, so still have some time.

[bhurts]

Yes I have a larger spindle. Square body 3kw. They sell them through automation technologies for 429.00. I love it. Just had a guy I did a retrofit for add the same spindle and vfd and he is very pleased.

Ben

[LeeWay]

I did look at those and the other cheaper ones on Ebay. I also read a lot of the reviews here and elsewhere.
They seem pretty hit and miss. This will be a production machine, so I don't mind paying a little extra to get one that I can feel confident with.

I also just sent an email to Ahren at CRP's and asked if I can bolt the square model directly to the Z plate on the Pro 4824. I suspect that I can. That would save me some money there for the round mounting plate and hardware. That makes the 3HP model look more appealing.
I may have to go that route.

[LeeWay]

Well it seems that CRP's are getting ready to come out with a plug and play spindle setup. It is a GMT spindle. Square type 2.2 KW air cooled. Not sure what brand the VFD is, but it will come mounted in its own enclosure and be ready to plug in. All of the settings etc should already be addressed at that point.
I will be using the same laptop that ran my old router, but the main thing I will have to setup is the ESS. I already have that on my mill, so should go quickly. They are just awaiting some completion of some documentation before they publicly release it. Since I am going for plug and play anyway, that is how I plan to go.

[LeeWay]

The drives that CRP's will be using are LS brand. C100 I think, but please confirm any of this information through them. They are not yet ready to go live with it, so things can certainly change.

Does anyone know of a quick change ER20 collet system?

I really need to use two tools to do our guards sides correctly. ER collets do not tend to close at the same spot each time either.
I am also ordering the touch plate,so that would help, but nothing could beat the speed of a quick change system.
I am spoiled by the lever draw bar with TTS on the Pulsar mill and gang tooling on the SBL15 lathe.

[Eddard_Stark]

I am using the same drive as Bhurts WJ200-022SF with an UGRA 2.2kw for the hit and miss reasons LeeWay stated;

re: what Ger21 pulled from the listing; it's my understanding that's true for a VFD that isn't specifically designed for single phase input. The next to last digit of the model # on the Hitachi denote input phase (022-SF == 2.2kw Single Phase Digital ,F== digital) And single phase VFD do not have to be derated. Link to WJ200 docs

re: quick change tool; I have this same issue with my large format router so I just decided to mount a router next to my spindle and use it for auxiliary tooling. Actually I'm mounting two b/c why not amirite! (Camastar X3 clone essentially) And when I say decided, I have the parts, it just isn't implemented yet....lol.

I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same since you already have a router. I have a custom machine btw so I am assuming you can find room on your Z plate.

[LeeWay]

Well that is an idea, however I am trying to reduce the noise in the shop. The routers are our biggest offenders right now. We also do a round over of the profiles of our guard sides on a router table built into the right wing on our table saw. It's an older 3HP Hitachi and it is not quiet. It is also overkill for that job, but it does do additional duty on occasion and that extra HP is valuable then. I am considering installing one of these spindle in there to replace it though. Not real sure that will happen, but thinking on it. What won't happen is another router beside the spindle on the CNC machine. If anything, I would install another identical spindle and switch the VFD somehow. Probably with relays. Is that possible? Run two spindles off the same VFD?
I will have a little extra space around each sheet that we are cutting,so both could get to the necessary spot on the sheets.

[ger21]

It is also overkill for that job, but it does do additional duty on occasion and that extra HP is valuable then. I am considering installing one of these spindle in there to replace it though

Just put a variable speed 2HP router in there and run it at it's lowest speed (usually 8,000-10,000). It'll be much, much quieter.

If anything, I would install another identical spindle and switch the VFD somehow. Probably with relays. Is that possible? Run two spindles off the same VFD?

Yes, that's what I plan on doing on the machine I'm building. I've used an industrial machine with a single VFD running two 10HP spindles.
However, I may just buy two chinese VFD's, which are only about $125 on Ebay. I can buy three, and have a spare, for the prive of a single Hitachi. And not have to go through the trouble of wiring up the relays, and making sure the software is controlling them properly. If you're relays switch with the VFD running, you'll likely need a new VFD.

[LeeWay]

Agreed. The VFD would need to be treated like a stepper motor drive. Don't switch the spindle with the VFD powered up.
What might work better in that case would be a second job gcode. Power down the VFD between the jobs. Food for thought.

It would be awhile before a second spindle was implemented anyway. I just looked at some of the bits I would be using on this. They are made by Kyocera. Like these. 5 1 8" Four Flute Carbide Endmills Kyocera Tycom 1800 1250 500 | eBay

I used to use them in the mill a lot, but don't have any production parts that still use the 1/8" ones. I have about a dozen of these left, so that is cool. I will probably use these initially for the entire job. Profiling, hole drilling and pocketing or dadoing. These already have the collet stops on them. They are precisely located from one to the next. That should help make tool changes quicker when needed. Why did I buy that Z axis touch plate?