[reddog37]

I need advice for deep d.o.c. turning tools for a swiss type with a rotating guide bushing....

[CNCRim]

Depend on what material you are cutting, but for me I like start out with .05D.O.C with .007ipr for OD and .0012ipr for ID. Then listen to the sound while it cut and try to push more and more until it just right.

[DDM]

Yay more people who have swiss. Depth of cut kinda depends on the shape and size or your part. A lot of times I will take full depth cuts if I have a larger distance than the length of the facing on the guide bushing. I don't go for a real high feed rate but instead I use tooling that allows for faster surface feeds. On single pass turing I could be using 6k RPM and .001-.002 FPR. Give me an example of the part you are making and what kind of setup you have and I could give you a good idea of how I would make it. I've been Programming, Setting up and running a STAR SV32J-II for about 2 years now.

The Swiss are a different animal and anyone who has any questions, problems or comments please drop me a line.

Carl

[tobyaxis]

Well it is about time the Swiss people came around. I have been posting Greek about Swiss for months.

I use Cermet Inserts Uncoated for all O.D. cutting tools on a Swiss. It all depends on what your cutting and how long it is. I have cut Inconel X750 .125 Diameter down to .065 in one pass 3 inches long with .0001 taper.

What are you cutting?
BTW: I forgot to ask you what machine you were using???

DDM the STAR SV32J-II is a very nice machine. Do you have the automatic barfeeder that loads bars by itself and removes the bar ends?

[DDM]

I think once we get going on the swiss a forum might open up for itself

For tooling I've been using Sandvik stuff or should I say $andvik. For OD turning I'm using a CCMT coated incert along with a VCEX incert for backturning. For boring I've been using Sandviks hotrot CXS boring bars. They work great but are expensive.

For material we mainly use centerless ground 6061, 2011, 360 brass, 203 Stainless and 303 stainless. We use Blazer Swiss lube for coolent, beats the mess of using oil but has some drawbacks.

Any yes we are using an automatic bar feeder, it's an LNS I can't recall the model offhand but it is automatic load and unload. I have buckets full of 10" long scrap though.

Anyone else using the swiss or wondering about them please chime in.

Carl

[tobyaxis]

I think once we get going on the swiss a forum might open up for itself

For tooling I've been using Sandvik stuff or should I say $andvik. For OD turning I'm using a CCMT coated incert along with a VCEX incert for backturning. For boring I've been using Sandviks hotrot CXS boring bars. They work great but are expensive.

For material we mainly use centerless ground 6061, 2011, 360 brass, 203 Stainless and 303 stainless. We use Blazer Swiss lube for coolent, beats the mess of using oil but has some drawbacks.

Any yes we are using an automatic bar feeder, it's an LNS I can't recall the model offhand but it is automatic load and unload. I have buckets full of 10" long scrap though.

Anyone else using the swiss or wondering about them please chime in.

Carl

With a Swiss it is recommended that one uses centerless ground stock that is at least .0005 overall taper. I remember a shop where they ordered regular stock. It was 440E and the Z axis was jamming a lot. I told them the Specs for Swiss Turning and they had a FIT. Oh well, not my money spent on Guide Bushings. I used to use Hardinge Collets and Guide Bushings. What do you use?

[adam dogg]

I have been a swiss programmer for about 8yrs.

currently programming Star machines SV32, SV32j-II, SB16, SR16.

Previously Citizen models.

I work in the orthopedic industry, and machine very hard material. from Ti to 316lvm, and this new crap called Biodur(really, really nasty)

The universal insert that I use is an Iscar order # DCMT 3-1-PF IC 907
this seems to work great in all sorts of material, and it actually works well in Biodur.

Any questions about swiss machining feel free to ask. I have lots of experience in thread whirling, thread milling, macro programming, loop cycles, surface machining and much more.

[tobyaxis]

I have been a swiss programmer for about 8yrs.

currently programming Star machines SV32, SV32j-II, SB16, SR16.

Previously Citizen models.

I work in the orthopedic industry, and machine very hard material. from Ti to 316lvm, and this new crap called Biodur(really, really nasty)

The universal insert that I use is an Iscar order # DCMT 3-1-PF IC 907
this seems to work great in all sorts of material, and it actually works well in Biodur.

Any questions about swiss machining feel free to ask. I have lots of experience in thread whirling, thread milling, macro programming, loop cycles, surface machining and much more.

Are you machining complex Surfaces on a Swiss? Do you have any Pics? I have heard of this but never done it or seen it. Please share

BTW: What CAM Software are you using? Or is it all Macro and Sub-Programs?

[solgood]

New to swiss turning, we have a citizen L32 with a iamka bar feeder and just picked up a new L20 with a cav bar feeder. I would like to here your feedback on both these machines.

P.S. we have been running reg. bar stock on these machines with no problems, no need for ground stock.

[reddog37]

Hey DDM,
99% of the time I'm cutting 304L. The lathe is a Hanwha....some Korean brand. My boss likes to profile in one pass which can put the DOC at .270 on some jobs!!!!! We also use Blazer swiss lube. I can't break chips because of the bushing so I dont know if I need tooling with sharp edges or a dcmt with a .160 doc. Before I ask them to drop $300 I need to know what works. My main spindle rarely goes over 3000 rpm because it shakes the LNS sprint II loader too hard. I would love to break chips on the main side since it hasen't happend in the 5 months i've worked there. It's funny, even my supervisor doesn't want anything to do with the swiss. Thank you for responding to my thread and any help would be much appreciated.

[tobyaxis]

New to swiss turning, we have a citizen L32 with a iamka bar feeder and just picked up a new L20 with a cav bar feeder. I would like to here your feedback on both these machines.

P.S. we have been running reg. bar stock on these machines with no problems, no need for ground stock.

That is do to using soft materials. Are you using Carbide lined Guide Bushings? The reason for the jamming issue is mainly due to a tight Guide Bushing. I set mine to .0001 to hold very tight tolerances. +-.0001 or better.

[tobyaxis]

Hey DDM,
99% of the time I'm cutting 304L. The lathe is a Hanwha....some Korean brand. My boss likes to profile in one pass which can put the DOC at .270 on some jobs!!!!! We also use Blazer swiss lube. I can't break chips because of the bushing so I dont know if I need tooling with sharp edges or a dcmt with a .160 doc. Before I ask them to drop $300 I need to know what works. My main spindle rarely goes over 3000 rpm because it shakes the LNS sprint II loader too hard. I would love to break chips on the main side since it hasen't happend in the 5 months i've worked there. It's funny, even my supervisor doesn't want anything to do with the swiss. Thank you for responding to my thread and any help would be much appreciated.

That is because Swiss Work is and ART of it's own. Most know nothing about them. Have you tried an extra bar stablizer Bushing. I had to make one at a shop to hit 10,000 RPM and above. Sandvik makes great indexable inserts for 1/2 inch shank Swiss tooling.

http://www.iscar.com/

They may be expensive, but they work.

[adam dogg]

I don't have any pictures right now, but in the next few days I will take some and post them.

you can do it with a loop cycle as long as it is a fairly simple profile,

I will also use Unigraphics NX3, but I have to modify the program quite a bit because we only have a mill post.

I have sample parts of both methods, and will try to get pictures of them

Do to the memory of the machines the size of the program can be limmited, and will need to drip fed off of a card, or RS232 port.

[adam dogg]

Here is some of the work I have done.

all of these parts were turned and / or mill complete on a star sv32.

the big part in the middle was 3 pcs. welded together

the bent one was turned and milled complete, then bent off line.

can bend in the machine but thats not usually on purpose.

some were surfaced some were mill complete, some still give me nightmares.

First time posting a pic hope this works.

[tobyaxis]

Adam your pics came through great. Nice parts!!!!!!!! I haven't done any that complex, and hats off to you on those cool parts. Most of the Swiss turning shops in this area are too far away to commute too. There is a STAR Dealer here though, I believe in Roslyn NY. Were most of those parts short or long runs?

[DDM]

Sorry guys I only really have experance with the Star equipment. I've been trying to get them to get another one but with no luck, I guess we don't run the volume to buy a new machine of that nature. I've also had problems breaking chips with the swiss lathes. The tooling that I have been using is more or less along the same lines as what we use on our other turn mill centers and that requires a higher feedrate that what the swiss usually run at. For OD turning on 6061 I'll run anywhere from .001 to .003 per rev. I've tried different inserts but I can't get the chips to break either. I would talk to some tool reps and then talk to some shops that are using the tooling to see if the chips are indeed breaking before I would drop the money on a new set of tooling. I don't have a problem with the chips not breaking as of right now other than having to clean out the chip tray every 2 hours and the chips getting on the broken cutoff detector.

Guide bushings and fit are a pain in the @$$. When I run parts with tight tolerances I get all of my barstock out and measure it down the lenght of each bar and mark what the OD is. I then set my guide bushing to the largest diameter. I have had that machine crash on .0003 because the guide bushing was too tight. 6061 has been the worst for us and that is why we use centerless ground material. All of our stainless, Brass and 2011 has been fairly good for the Diameter. The other thing that helps is to keep your Head 1 Collet as close to the Guide bushing as possible without overtraveling on the Z. Hope some of this helps. I'll post as much as I know because they are awsome machines.

Carl

[tobyaxis]

Breaking chips on a Swiss has always been a problem for me as well. Inconel x750 is a PITA. Along with 300 Series SS. I know of no turning tools that will break chips on a Swiss because of the low feeds and high speeds used to accommidate good 16 and higher surface finishes. They all wind up making "Rats Nests" and breaking the smaller tools. Like # 80 drills (.0135 diameter).

Make your self a Rake that you can use to pull stringy chips out. Just make sure to make a handle that will slide out of your hand if a Nest grabs it. A Plastic Hoe is what I used for years.

Have you tried inserts from Sandvik?

[cogsman1]

Swiss tools are made by most of the tool companies now. To break the chips you may need to try a few until you find the best one for your material. I have been using 2000psi coolant/oil to snap the chips. This works in ALMOST every material. You can get coolant thru holders which direct the flow better and get even more of the materials. I now run Citizen machines with CoolBlaster pumps.
Here is a link to some videos of Citizens running.
[URL="http://www.ncengineering.co.uk/multimedia.htm"]

[Twistr]

Thanks for the tips. Carl, I'm gonna take you up on your offer to help with running this type of equipment. I am just starting up with a Citizen FL-42 and need a bit of advice. Which type of Blaser Swiss Lube Coolant you use? I'm wanting a semi-sythetic but don't know which one to specify? Also, I am constrained to 13mm max. O.D. boring bars (for ID operations) which will be held in a collet type setup. I looked up the Sandvik Coroturn XS types but they didn't have inserts for grooving or turning a thread. Any other suggestions?

[DDM]

I looked up the machine and it looks nice, not a big fan of the subspindle moving on the X but overall pretty nice. I'm not sure what kind of parts you want to do. The Sandvik CXS Line has ID turning, ID Threading, ID Gooving, and Face Grooving. I'm assuming that you want to do ID and OD turning, Threading and Gooving. I like the sandvik stuff but there are others that will fit the bill. For OD turning operations I would use their square shank holder and typical turning tools. You can do OD turning with a boaring bar but I don't like to do it, not rigid enough. For ID operations I would use a boring bar setup, with a solid boring bar holder that use setscrews assuming that that the holders on your turret are just holes with setscrews to hold a shaft with flat. Hope that's clear as mud. I'm not sure which swiss lube we are using, I'll check for you later.

Carl