[BrianMiller]

Title speaks for itself I guess. I am being helped by sales rep Albert Liu to design a woodworking machine, and am now deciding on the controller. I inquired about Mach 3 option but Albert informed me there were some compatibility issues and suggested NC Studio for a PC based alternative. I am an experienced user, but don't know anything about the relative merit of NC Studio vs the standard DSP A11 pendant controller and thought I would invite opinions, especially from those with experience of either controller.

I am looking for versatility, reliability, precision, and as much control of machining parameters as possible. Also I anticipate generating huge toolpaths for detailed sculpture work, so I'm leaning towards NC Studio. I have used pendant controllers before, and sometimes find them too "noobie friendly" and a bit clunky for those who want absolute control. Also I've used Mach 3 and am happy with it, and from what I've seen NC Studio looks similar.

Thoughts? Anything that one can do (well) that the other can't (so well)?

Otherwise, it's a standard build (high precision woodworking series) with a 350mm z axis to accommodate a 200mm rotary, and the 4.5kW HSD spindle. I don''t know much about hardware. I invite any opinions on these, and especially whether stability may be a concern with the 350mm z axis. Also the helical rack for xy looks generic, should I pursue more info on these? Any opinions about OMNI machine options would be welcome.

Cheers in advance!

[gfacer2]

Hi Brian,

Unfortunately I don't know anything about NC studio vs DSP but I know Rusty got a version of the DSP (I think he details which in either my thread or his). Might see if there is an NC studio sub forum. As for the gantry, again Rusty might have opinions as he got the rotary. As for the rack - it looks fine though they seem to use a lot of little sections rather than one nice long piece, to save money I'm sure. No one has mentioned it as an issue so I hope its fine but its one of the compromises they make for savings.

Still waiting for them to find a digital caliper to prove the test cut they made is very square before i pay the balance. They only had a slide caliper with 1mm graduations which was somewhat concerning.

Hope that helps a little.

[victorofga]

nc studio is not bad.. for 3 axis the clone version unbeatable..
im using since 3 years plus from now... and ok with.. several Mb programs read up in seconds..

the original weihong version even better.. if you stop... program remember for the last line and you can start from there..

when toolpath accidentally fall outside on the machine area, it warning you at dryrun, also stops the program..
you cant run out of area with rapid..

if you have more than 3 axis, then the original works very well.. weihong the ncstudio manuf makes serious controls not only for routers..

the dsp is good, however youre tied to an usb stick to transferring programs..

you could ask them also about syntec control..

if you use later ATC then you need serious control..

[dmannock]

Brian, be very careful with these guys. See my posts in this forum. Make sure that EVERYTHING that you want in your machine configuration is in the contract. They are losing repeat business according to their competitors. Gfacer put a good contract on here. Specify payment, an inspection option (I can recommend TTS Global) and add a penalty clause for late delivery. These guys are finally learning how to make UL/CSA machines after a major engineering, legal and certification training from me. I was the first one through the mill and it was very difficult work. Be warned that they say that they understand, but do not always get the message even when the English is simple. They want to sell you variations on a standard design and the factory does not have professionally qualified engineering support staff to solve these problems quickly. The 'technicians' are taught on an assembly line 'in house'. The wire may be undersized and not follow the international wiring colour codes. They no longer have a license to sell Mach3. Helical rack on my machine was swapped for 'top of the line' Chinese units without my approval. If Taiwanese or Japanese units were your choice, make sure that they use them. This factory will try to cut corners at every opportunity to save a few $$. They know all the angles. Lies are an accepted part of the game if it makes a sale. This seems to be normal in China.

If you need to source UL parts in China PM me if Zach and Sunny Sun cannot find my links. One of the major tricks in the contract is leaving out items that you have agreed to in any discussions. Keep your emails and TM texts. If you have ever bought a used car from a dealer, you will find those skills very useful. After calls from various Canadian government agencies and the Chinese embassy in Ottawa, they still broke the contract on shipping. Any shipper or freight forwarder will expect you to sign a contract in which you pay all excess fees that the factory will not cover. Make sure that the amount your paying if you use DDU is real. David

[victorofga]

sending something from china to usa 99.99 percent sure will be late..

unless you pay dhl for 15K or more
not because the manuf sends are late, but you cant control weather.. well, weather might scared by dmannock and within ship time the ocean will be smooth..

you also need to buy a termwood or onsrud or what ever company you prefer

youre the one, who eat banana in the store, throw on floor and sueing the store because you slipped...

[dmannock]

Victor, In the case of my machine, it was never about late arrival at the destination because of shipping problems. One of my contacts here in Canada from whom I bought a refitted laser cutter has to go to China every 6-8 months to sort out really stupid technical problems in person. As you may know, the Chinese government is trying to move people from their rural communities into new cities to provide a work force for Chinese industry. Many people do not move from their family farms and so those cities have few residents. They are almost ghost towns because the cost of an apartment is too high for them. Bringing people with little formal education into a city to do a technical job creates many problems. Among the many problems I have experienced are: 1) They were unable to connect two power supplies in parallel with balancing diodes given a schematic from the manufacturer, written instructions in English and finally Mandarin. It turned out that they had never done this before. 2) Setting up the connections for an 8-wire Lin Engineering 8718L stepper motor (they usually use 4-wire units). In addition to my explanations for bipolar series connections, English instructions and a video from the manufacturer did not help them. They needed the Chinese head office to send them instructions in Mandarin. Even then I had to confirm that this was correct and the Lin Engineering US office did the same. In both these cases, having given the sales manager whose 'excellent' English (supported by translation apps in Trade Manager) instructions, it took a lot of work behind the scenes by me to achieve what should have been 2 x 10 minute jobs. In both cases I also told them to talk to their factory's electrical engineer (non-existent). Both of these jobs took 2-3 weeks to complete. This is where their lack of technical understanding and support creates problems and delays with the machine builds. I have suggested to Zach and Sunny Sun that the CNC factories have their local business association hire a consulting engineer spreading the costs between the local manufacturers.

You must understand that the sales people can not explain technical details to their 'technicians'. They exist solely to get your deposit and will tell you anything you want to hear to get it. They will lie to get that sale and be unable to explain simple tasks requiring a basic technical understanding of their own machinery to their 'technicians'. These factories are not true manufacturers in the Western sense, but are assembly lines. The bottom line is that it is easier to milk a cow than assemble a CNC machine!!

You need to Google the following terms: breach of trust, breach of contract and look up details of Chinese contract law regarding the penalties paid when a supplier cannot supply the product in reasonable time. You get 2 x your deposit back.

The Chinese government, specifically the Ministry of Foreign Trade, does not like complaints about Chinese companies. All of them expect you to go to China and go through the courts to get restitution. However, from a distance you can suggest that they suspend a company's export license for 12 months pending inspection and approval! In the electronic market place they are very 'susceptable'. No lawyers are required!! Dr Dave

[victorofga]

well...

probably these are true..
on assembly lines workers are are not ""professionals"" ..
how much they are educated, I have no clue.. what I am sure, even at ford, or Chevrolet not all lineworker a certified car mechanic... don't even engineer..

we all very well awared all about these problems..

while it is true you wrote..
my viewpoint is on a complicated setup, like servo, atc even added vacuum, the price difference between a praised brand and a Chinese can be 4 times or more..

can be 80000 !!!!

for that money, I will not worry on a bad powersupply I will not care if the spindle burns out on the first day even..

additionally any fix need, ican identify any parts and buy from at least 10 different places..
versus a praised brand use to be a closed system a programmed plc, what means fixing on your own could cost 10K someone reverse engineering the pic... that's a little too costly..

yet... a high run business example a cabinet shop makes weekly 2-3 kitchen, they going to buy an onsrud or a termwood or a European machine..

with Chinese machines we have to be prepared to fix ourself.. and looking trough the forum, were very luckily that many talented guy happy to help..

================================================== =============================

in the past months I imported some led screens from shenzen..
one place makes the moduls and cabinets and other place makes only controls..

it doesn't says too much... but from shenzen comes the most electronics.. Nanjing also has electronic production ...

the factory that makes the moduls they have engineer, the other factory with only controls they also have..
and they very helpful..

true also, you have to be clear what you want to order.. when I didn't feel something clear, I asked photos, even videos..

again if it were a wellknown brand not Chinese, sure get a lawyer and sue them.. but agauin the price leaves so huge gap even with custom fee that still very affordable..
not for a large business..

the certifications..
the really critical parts, the spindle, the vfd the powersupply , they 99 percent conform with CE and I believe could pass the UL requirements too..

faulty parts... even boeing can produce faulty parts, despite the quality possible the highest in the industry..

================================================== ==========================

for your machine, I would call simply the motor manufacturer, if it were mine..
the factory where stepper motor made, or servo, they sure have engineer and they can tell you everything about wiring up a motor..

most machine manufacturer wouldn't be capable to design a control, or even just a simple stepper motor.. not only the Chinese, but anywhere on the earth..
same apply to a bearing or similar """simple looking things""

[dmannock]

well...

probably these are true..
on assembly lines workers are are not ""professionals"" ..
how much they are educated, I have no clue.. what I am sure, even at ford, or Chevrolet not all lineworker a certified car mechanic... don't even engineer..

we all very well awared all about these problems..

while it is true you wrote..
my viewpoint is on a complicated setup, like servo, atc even added vacuum, the price difference between a praised brand and a Chinese can be 4 times or more..

can be 80000 !!!!

for that money, I will not worry on a bad powersupply I will not care if the spindle burns out on the first day even..

additionally any fix need, ican identify any parts and buy from at least 10 different places..
versus a praised brand use to be a closed system a programmed plc, what means fixing on your own could cost 10K someone reverse engineering the pic... that's a little too costly..

yet... a high run business example a cabinet shop makes weekly 2-3 kitchen, they going to buy an onsrud or a termwood or a European machine..

with Chinese machines we have to be prepared to fix ourself.. and looking trough the forum, were very luckily that many talented guy happy to help..

================================================== =============================

in the past months I imported some led screens from shenzen..
one place makes the moduls and cabinets and other place makes only controls..

it doesn't says too much... but from shenzen comes the most electronics.. Nanjing also has electronic production ...

the factory that makes the moduls they have engineer, the other factory with only controls they also have..
and they very helpful..

true also, you have to be clear what you want to order.. when I didn't feel something clear, I asked photos, even videos..

again if it were a wellknown brand not Chinese, sure get a lawyer and sue them.. but agauin the price leaves so huge gap even with custom fee that still very affordable..
not for a large business..

the certifications..
the really critical parts, the spindle, the vfd the powersupply , they 99 percent conform with CE and I believe could pass the UL requirements too..

faulty parts... even boeing can produce faulty parts, despite the quality possible the highest in the industry..

================================================== ==========================

for your machine, I would call simply the motor manufacturer, if it were mine..
the factory where stepper motor made, or servo, they sure have engineer and they can tell you everything about wiring up a motor..

most machine manufacturer wouldn't be capable to design a control, or even just a simple stepper motor.. not only the Chinese, but anywhere on the earth..
same apply to a bearing or similar """simple looking things""

Victor, It's clear to me that English is not your first language. There is nothing wrong with this, but your English comprehension is often a problem and your replies do not focus on the salient points made in the message. I was amazed to see how many posts you have made here at the CNCzone. I'll try to deal with you points above in a reply and will then cease my posts here as I do not want to hijack this thread.

I've tried to outline exactly where the technical and communication problems are in buying a Chinese made machine in previous posts. I do realize that Western made machines are very expensive. But money is only part of the issue. Safety must also be considered. Many people come to this forum to find a reliable manufacturer who is able to build a quality made, safe machine built to tight tolerances with the correct wiring and components. Sourcing UL/CSA parts is not as difficult as the sales people tell you, as many of those UL/CSA parts are available in China in online market places. They are not interested in making a machine where they have to do the sourcing themselves. It adds little to the costs of the machine, maybe 15%, but they must invest in bulk orders. They make machines to the lowest dollar. They just want to sell you what they make, not want you want to buy. This is nice until governments close the customs loopholes. Then CE machines not built to UL/CSA standards and ready for inexpensive local ETL certification may sit on the dock at the port for a long, long time.

The education of people on assembly lines at Ford or GM. Yes, they are not 'professional' mechanics or engineers, but they do have a basic high school education, some may have been to college, BUT quality control inspectors and professional engineers are there for technical support. Also, there is a common language between them. In markets with other languages, one or both sides may be bilingual, or they can hire technical translators to enable communication. This is not the case for many Chinese CNC factories and people in the West do not know this. For many Chinese factories, hiring a translator is considered too expensive and besides, the translators will not know about CNC machines. This is what I have been told, but found a superbly qualified technical translator in Jinan. It is basically the factory's way or no way. If something goes wrong you will hear the statement, "We did not know or understand". However, they are not buying the machine, you are and although compromises must occasionally be made, they should be negotiated and the price raised or lowered relative to that quoted and in the contract. The contract was for a machine with a specific configuration containing named parts. This is not what the factory wants to do. They want more profit. Yes, this happens the world over, but in some manufacturing sectors the laws of the country to which the items are exported must be followed. It is the law and that is not Chinese law! This is important if the machine is not to be used in China.

Many products made in China do not qualify for a UL/CSA/TUV-R/ETL mark. I've said this before in the CNCzone forum, but I'll repeat myself (I am going to have to do this job for the second ETL inspection of my 1325 Omni CNC router in a few weeks). There are "Ampacity" tables which are calculated from basic engineering mathematics, which determine how much current can be carried by a copper or aluminium conductor of a certain gauge. The basic rule of thumb is that the more current that passes through the conductor of resistance X, the greater is the amount of heat generated. This means that a larger conductor size must be used and perhaps a higher melting temperature insulating jacket. The more conductors there are in a cable, the more heat will be generated and so a still larger conductor must be used to reduce the resistance and also the heat. Here in Canada, the safety margin is 125%. This is in the electrical code here and it is the law! In China, the safety margin may be less and so smaller cables may be used. These may be more flexible, but also cost the factory less money. This means that many factories will use undersized cables for the rated load in the export market and that those cables will have to be replaced to pass an inspection.

Also, UL and CSA cables contain flame retardants that are absent in the equivalent CE product. For some UL/CSA cables the insulation jacket may be self-extinguishing as well. These materials have to pass the severest tests. It is not good to say, "Well this is only going to happen 1 time in 100,000 times and it will be perfectly fine. If a fire starts in your living room and the wiring to a lamp catches fire, it could be like a primer cord on a stick of dynamite, the flames will spread along the wire to the carpet, upholstery and curtains. The 60 seconds that you had to get out of the room may be reduced to 30 seconds. If the fire spreads and every room in your house contains these materials, you will lose your house because the fire brigade will not arrive soon enough to put out the fire. This may also mean that as a consequence the house next door catches fire too! Will your insurance company pay you?

There are already a few Chinese made vehicles on the road in Europe, but few, if any, in North America because they do not pass the crash tests. To be used here, the vehicle must be certified as 'fit for purpose'. These safety tests exist for the benefit of the average person, if you only hurt yourself and your insurance covers you then fine, but what if you're not. How many items do you have in your home or workplace that are non-compliant? If the answer is only 1 or 10 your risks may be small, but if it's closer to 100, then 100/100,000 =1 in 1000! That may seem like good odds, but if the item is in daily use, how long will it last before it fails?

[victorofga]

if one buy directly from china, then that is their own risk..

companies will not buy, because to fit a new machine to ul listing cost more than machine itself.

yes Chinese making cars..

yes they are selling in Germany their cars...

you can sell Germany officially car,

IF I say IF the TUV rheinland put stamp on..
to getting a TUV sticker harder than UL
looks like Chinese cars passed the german tests..

[dmannock]

Victor, Again you have missed the subtleties of the points made in my last post. You muddy the waters with incorrect information and sound like a Chinese factory representative here to help the factories sell their machines. UL FIELD inspections are typically $1500 - 5000USD. Intertek in China quoted me $1000USD for a similar inspection in Jinan. Here in Edmonton it costs under $500CDN.

Driving Chinese cars in Europe, good for them! The US IIHS & NHTSA crash tests are tougher than in the EEC, that is why there are no Chinese-made cars on the roads here. This is a 'no brainer' for anyone living in North America.

[BrianMiller]

Brian, be very careful with these guys. See my posts in this forum. Make sure that EVERYTHING that you want in your machine configuration is in the contract. They are losing repeat business according to their competitors. Gfacer put a good contract on here. Specify payment, an inspection option (I can recommend TTS Global) and add a penalty clause for late delivery. These guys are finally learning how to make UL/CSA machines after a major engineering, legal and certification training from me. I was the first one through the mill and it was very difficult work. Be warned that they say that they understand, but do not always get the message even when the English is simple. They want to sell you variations on a standard design and the factory does not have professionally qualified engineering support staff to solve these problems quickly. The 'technicians' are taught on an assembly line 'in house'. The wire may be undersized and not follow the international wiring colour codes. They no longer have a license to sell Mach3. Helical rack on my machine was swapped for 'top of the line' Chinese units without my approval. If Taiwanese or Japanese units were your choice, make sure that they use them. This factory will try to cut corners at every opportunity to save a few $$. They know all the angles. Lies are an accepted part of the game if it makes a sale. This seems to be normal in China.

If you need to source UL parts in China PM me if Zach and Sunny Sun cannot find my links. One of the major tricks in the contract is leaving out items that you have agreed to in any discussions. Keep your emails and TM texts. If you have ever bought a used car from a dealer, you will find those skills very useful. After calls from various Canadian government agencies and the Chinese embassy in Ottawa, they still broke the contract on shipping. Any shipper or freight forwarder will expect you to sign a contract in which you pay all excess fees that the factory will not cover. Make sure that the amount your paying if you use DDU is real. David

Thanks for the advice David. Wish I read this before paying my deposit Quick question to start off, since I am acronymically challenged, what does UL/CSA mean?

[gfacer2]

OK, first, make sure you monitor your own threads. Attention to detail is key in the process.

Anyhow, CSA is Canadian standards association, UL is underwriters laboratory. Both basically mean it's wired to North American specs. But to csa/UL standards is not exactly the same as csa/UL approved as that would require a sticker saying it is from someone able to issue them.

To get that sticker is about $1000 if everything is wired OK.

Strictly speaking, no one at the port cares but if you have a city or electrical inspection they might, depending on whether or not you are lucky.


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