[millman52]

I am interested in purchasing what I need to do TIG I have welded with stick & MIG for years. I have several different power sources. Linde CV/DC MIG, Hobart electric motor driven generator DC/MIG, Lincoln DC600 Multiprocess AC/DC MIG/Stick/TIG, Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC.

What TIG welding I need to do is minimal but would be really handy at times for it's neatness & better control. I just don't know what I need for a basic entry level TIG. Even though the DC600 Lincoln says "TIG" right on it I really don't think it has the high frequency built in.

Help Please....

[massajamesb]

well, are you going to be welding aluminum or anything requiring AC?
How thick is the material you want to weld (maximum you run through?)
Do you have single or three phase power available?
What is your budget?

for a switchable entry level Tig, look at the Miller Econotig, that was the first Tig I started with.
Above that, I like the Syncrowave 200 or 250.

I also like the features found on the HTP upper line of Tigs,
http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html

[millman52]

Budget isn't really such a problem. I just really don't want another machine that will sit 99% of the time collecting dust.

I'd much rather adapt something I already have if possible. As I already have (7) welding machines all of them industrial quality & 100% duty cycle. Other than the 2 Idealarc 250. & they are 60%

I have rotary converted 3 phase I am running my other MIG machines on.

I will want Al. capability, but most will be steel

[Chris64]

I also learned on an Econotig. I ended up buying a Lincoln TIG175pro. It's the Lincoln version (same price). I'd heard better things but it came with fewer accessories.

for what it's worth; The Econotig was a rental, and I had to wait a couple weeks to get it because it was being serviced. The Lincoln has been flawless. I usually weld alum but it welds everything great. Alum takes some getting used to. I don't know how thick it can weld but it has no problem at all with about 50% power welding 1/4" alum with good penetration.

It's really fun to TIG steel...it's so quiet and the control is so nice. There's nothing fun about alum except when all the planets line-up and your welds look nice.

[massajamesb]

It's really fun to TIG steel...it's so quiet and the control is so nice. There's nothing fun about alum except when all the planets line-up and your welds look nice.[/QUOTE]


Amen, brother.
Aluminum is very tough to learn when there is no one around you that can teach you. Once you get it down, however, life is good.
When I originally learned how to weld aluminum with oxyacetylene, and only because I had to, I should have put a gun barrel in my mouth. That is not how I would recommend learning alum welding to anyone. I would only recommend it as a form of torture in extreme situations in a third world country. I am sure some will pop their heads up and say that "alum welding with a torch is easy",
If you think this way, you are better than me. Pure and simple. I would rather be impaled upon a rusty spoon than gas weld aluminum again.

Anyway,

Neil,
I have heard it is possible to convert a stick welder to Tig, but I am not too sure about it, moreover I am a little ignorant on the subject. I would try Google for such a task.

I would suggest doing what Chris ^^^ did, and rent a Tig that is ACDC switchable, and give it a shot. Then you are only out a couple bucks for the experiance, and you can try welding anything you want.

Be prepared to electrocute yourself (if you are as hard headed as me) if you have never Tig'd before. I don't know how many times I have shot sparks between the fillings in my mouth, or just plain knocked myself stupid. I am told by others that these things happen to many people other than myself, but that doesn't make me feel much smarter.
I suppose that I will eventually prove the "Darwinian natural selection theory" to be true, but not yet, anyway.

[tadream]

A DC stick machine can be easily converted to TIG steel and stainless. HF is nice, but you can add a torch that has a manual gas valve and scratch start, and that's all you need. You need AC and HF for aluminum. Any AC machine will be single-phase. You can weld over 100 amps without HF, but it's a pain to start the arc, and forget doing any light work. The Lincoln 175 is probably the best entry-level machine that will do it all, for a little bigger, I'd go with the Miller Sync250. I think Miller machines have better arc characteristics, and even though I have always been Miller partial, the Lincolns seem to be holding up better these days. Miller has also got some small inverter machines out now that will do Aluminum, but I haven't actually welded with one. They are much more expensive, and were mainly built for portability for contractors. Keep in mind also that inverters, when out of warranty are much more prone to failure, and more expensive to repair. Hope some of this helps. As far as shocking yourself with HF, good gloves, not leaning on the worktable, and not sticking the filler right up in the arc are the best ways to retain those fillings!

[Weldtutor]

I'd much rather adapt something I already have if possible.
Other than the 2 Idealarc 250. & they are 60%
I will want Al. capability, but most will be steel

Lincoln Electric, Miller, & others have in the past marketed a unit that has
(a spark gap oscillator to provide)
high frequency, gas & water controls, to allow adapting of a machine such as your Idealarc 250 to TIG welding capability.

I have previously used the Lincoln "HIGH-FREQ" with satisfactory results on both aluminum & steel. You may wish to search for such a unit for your conversion.

You would of course also require the TIG torch, suitable torch cable either water cooled (over approximately 200 amps) or gas cooled, tungsten electrodes, & shielding gas supply with a flowmeter.

The above should meet the "minimum requirements" for joining both aluminum & steel within the range of your power sources amperage & duty cycle.

As some previous replies have suggested, welding aluminum can be very rewarding, but also presents new challenges such as sudden collapse of the base metal due to it's "hot short" characteristic. Remote amperage controls that are foot or hand operated tend to allow better operator control of this difficulty. I don't believe your Idealarc unit has the receptacle for remote amperage control.

Other members recommendations for a machine designed for TIG might be wise to consider.

Quick settings:
Aluminum uses AC with high frequency. ACHF
Steel uses DC straight polarity, high freq. or scratch start. DCSP

[millman52]

Weldtutor, you are right about the idealarc 250 not having anything such as a 5 or 6 pin connector for a remote control of any sort. The DC600 does however If not mistaken it has a 6 pin & a 14 or 17 pin connector plus switches on the front panel for local/remote MIG , submerged arc, Tig, Stick. Then a large switch where the leads hook for DC+, DC-, AC. Pretty much standard for later mod. Lincolns I think.

[tadream]

The HF box is a good suggestion if you can find a used one cheap. (there's one on ebay for $150 right now). However, a new one is nearly $1000. Foot pedals are around $200. An air cooled torch near $100, while a water-cooled is over that, and needs a water source, etc. All of this will give you the ability to TIG off of either of your existing machines, but the DC600 has no AC for Aluminum, and the Idealarc has no remote control capability. The money it would take to get to that point would essentially come up to the price of a smaller TIG machine which includes accessories and has a warranty, etc. I VERY much understand the desire to make what you have work, but it might not be pheasible. You really need to review what you'll be doing with it, as the smaller TIG machines aren't going to be able to do as heavy a weld on Aluminum as the Idealarc with a HF box. Also, as mentioned, if you can get an HF box used, cheap, it might be the better choice. It sounds like you've got a lot of equipment there, so might you possibly be able to sell any of it off to finance buying something else? A DC600 would be a keeper, as it is a very versatile machine and will handle any process EXCEPT aluminum TIG. Also, while it's an old-skool machine, those motor/generator Hobart MIG's have one of the sweetest arcs I've ever seen. There aren't many of those around any more.

[Chris64]

.Be prepared to electrocute yourself (if you are as hard headed as me) if you have never Tig'd before. I don't know how many times I have shot sparks between the fillings in my mouth, or just plain knocked myself stupid. I am told by others that these things happen to many people other than myself, but that doesn't make me feel much smarter.
I suppose that I will eventually prove the "Darwinian natural selection theory" to be true, but not yet, anyway.

Yikes! I've yet to shock myself but I've always used ridiculously huge gloves that look like I could pick french fries straight out of the fryer. I always see these shows like "american chopper" where they tig with bare hands and wondered what would happen if they fed the filler into the arc...now I know. I was considering ditching the gloves but I think I'll keep them.

The other benefit is when welding aluminum...everything gets hot...EVERYTHING. Those gloves have burn marks all over them...what would my skin look like?

One thing I really want is a trigger control for current rather than foot. About half the time I feel like I'm performing some form of Yoga trying to reach everything at once. Anyone had any experience with these?

[DSL PWR]

The trigger control is the way to go!! Mine has a coged track that controls the juice. The only time I prefer the foot control is at the work bench.

[Weldtutor]

One thing I really want is a trigger control for current rather than foot. Anyone had any experience with these?

The torch mounted, hand amperage control works well for applications where the foot pedal is not convenient, such as standing on a ladder or work stage.
Your thumb is normally used to move the amperage control while holding the torch, & can be awkward in some angles & positions.

For bench work, especially while seated, a foot operated remote control would be preferred by most operators.

I once TIG welded stainless steel with the right foot on an amperage contol, left foot operating a welding positioner to rotate the work, one hand holding the torch & the other hand manuliplating the filler rod!
It was "multi-tasking" at it's best.:drowning:

[millman52]

The HF box is a good suggestion if you can find a used one cheap. (there's one on ebay for $150 right now). However, a new one is nearly $1000. Foot pedals are around $200. An air cooled torch near $100, while a water-cooled is over that, and needs a water source, etc. All of this will give you the ability to TIG off of either of your existing machines, but the DC600 has no AC for Aluminum, and the Idealarc has no remote control capability. The money it would take to get to that point would essentially come up to the price of a smaller TIG machine which includes accessories and has a warranty, etc. I VERY much understand the desire to make what you have work, but it might not be pheasible. You really need to review what you'll be doing with it, as the smaller TIG machines aren't going to be able to do as heavy a weld on Aluminum as the Idealarc with a HF box. Also, as mentioned, if you can get an HF box used, cheap, it might be the better choice. It sounds like you've got a lot of equipment there, so might you possibly be able to sell any of it off to finance buying something else? A DC600 would be a keeper, as it is a very versatile machine and will handle any process EXCEPT aluminum TIG. Also, while it's an old-skool machine, those motor/generator Hobart MIG's have one of the sweetest arcs I've ever seen. There aren't many of those around any more.

I thought the DC600 had an AC output but on closer inspection I guess it doesn't. Other than the Lincoln DC600 (Apx. 1998), Most of my welding equipment is "Old School" & you are spot on about the Hobart having an incredably smooth & stable arc. The Hobart in fact is my favorite MIG machine to use.

I would sell or trade the DC600 Lincoln on a TIG outfit. It is my least favorite welding machine to use. Nothing at all wrong with it It's just larger than I need amperage wise. Only reason I have it to start with is I took it on a debt.

[tadream]

I'll give you my personal recommendation about what I would do if I had your list of equipment: The Linde, Hobart and DC600 will all do MIG. The DC600 and the Idealarc with both do stick. The Idealarc also has AC, but other than that, isn't well suited to converting to TIG & there's not a lot of use doing stick on AC unless that's all you've got(like a "buzzbox"). I would keep the Hobart, even though parts availability is becoming questionable, just because they do weld so good. I would also keep the DC600 because it is so versatile and very dependable. I would use it primarily to stick weld with, and as a "backup" MIG power source. It can also TIG steel and stainless with only the addition of a torch and possibly a foot/hand remote if you so desire, but keep in mind it won't be very good for light material because it is so large. I would apply whatever I could get out of the Linde and Idealarc to the purchase of a TIG machine. You can sell them in a hurry and not get much, but if you play your cards right you can do OK. Going this route will give you a dedicated machine for each process, plus a "fallback position" for everything except AC TIG. Getting a Lincoln TIG would mean that the foot control would work for it and the DC600 both, as would the torch, with an inexpensive adaptor. Considering that a TIG machine will also stick weld, you could sell the DC600 as well and get a TIG setup with very little out-of-pocket expense. Fewer machines, more shop space.... My own setup is a Miller XMT304 with a gas cooled torch, wire feeder, stick leads and two gas bottles. I can do everything with it except AC TIG. 300+ amps and about the size of an ice chest (good for my single-car garage "shop"). I also have a 300 Amp Airco Square-Wave TIG with water-cooled torch that stays at my parents' house. If I have to TIG aluminum(rare) I just drive over there (or use a customer's machine). I'll get it all in one spot as soon as I get more space!

[Mortek]

OK now my two bits, sell your stick welders and go buy a millier 350 synchrowave. It will do the stick, tig of steel, stainless steel, aluminum, magnesium, titanium, copper, inconell, and whatever else you want. It switches from tig to stick with the flip of a small switch, and you get both ac and dc power. Get a foot control and a wp20 water cooled torch, rated at 250 amps, but I run mine at 350 amps all the time using a cold water supply, not a water circulating cooler. I have welded 1/2 " aluminum with this with no trouble. Awesome machine, and will cost somewhere around $4000.00, just my opinion, you won't be sorry.

Ken

[Corvus corax]

Geez… Pretty big machines we're talking about here. Have you thought about one of the new inverter type machines?

I've been using a Miller Dynasty 200 DX for about a year and a half now, and its been a great machine. You're "limited" to 200 amps, but when you can take the balance all the way out to 99% EN on AC, it performs like a much larger conventional machine. Energy usage is less than half what a comparable transformer type unit consumes, and it will happily run on any power AUTOMATICALLY, from 120v single phase, up to 3 phase 440V. I run mine on a 240v single phase circuit, and weld 1/4 inch aluminum ALL DAY without so much as a hiccup.

The best part of this machine is the size. It weighs around 50 pounds, and takes up just the right amount of space. It uses non continuous HF, so when you're welding aluminum you don't have the continuous HF voltage "crawl" all over the place, and the machine generates almost ZERO interference. I've done a few sculpture repairs on site that would have otherwise been a HUGE pain, and the last job, I welded 3/8 inch stainless while working off of 120v power. Not even possible with a transformer based machine. The DC arc is absolutely clean, and the variable frequency AC is very useful. Being able to run a 99% EN AC balance also allows me to use the 1% EP cleaning on dirty ferrous materials, which I frequently run into when repairing outdoor structures. Also, being able to run the amps down to 1 amp in DC and 5 amps in AC allows for some pretty spectacular thin material welds!

[handlewanker]

Hi Massajamesb, thanks for the info about getting "electrifryed" when the electrode gets into the arc with bare hands. Never realised that could happen, gloves it will be.
As far as alluminium welding with gas goes, have you tried the Dillon or Henrob gas torch?
The guy who demo'd it at our model club was welding an ally gearbox so corroded up you'd never think it could be done.
Mortek, the guy did say that he wanted to do a "bit" of tigging now and then, when he finds out what a bottle of argon costs to rent and fill he might think different about the $4000.
I'm in the process of converting my 200 amp stick welder to do tig, and already have the 300 amp diodes for the DC part.
Next I'll have to find the HF bit for starting the arc, and ally.
I like the idea of the current control on the handle , but with the conversion where does the control attach to?
I think that there is a bit more circuitry involved for current control so it'll be a bit more research yet.
Ian.

[massajamesb]

[QUOTE=handlewanker;241365]Hi Massajamesb, thanks for the info about getting "electrifryed" when the electrode gets into the arc with bare hands. Never realised that could happen, gloves it will be.
As far as alluminium welding with gas goes, have you tried the Dillon or Henrob gas torch?
The guy who demo'd it at our model club was welding an ally gearbox so corroded up you'd never think it could be done.

Actually, I am a big fan of the Henrob. I guess I just never thought about using it on aluminum, as I got it after I got a tig. I am going to try that today, just for fun.

The problem with me electrocuting myself is that I knew/know how I was doing it, and kept doing it. The biggest problem was my "technique" at first.

Just a friendly thought, don't think that gloves will save you. Out of the thousands of times I have Tig'd, I have welded without gloves twice, maybe. I have not electrocuted myself when not wearing gloves. Every time, gloves were worn.

One gentleman on here made a comment that "you don't put your elbows on the grounded table". Dear Gawd, is that true. Especially if your elbow is covered in sweat, all the way through your welding jacket, and you are welding at about 200 amps.
Believe me, that one really hurt.

I won't claim that everyone who picks up a tig will electrocute themselves.
I WILL say if you are anything like me, it is a possibility.

I have taught a number of pupils how to tig (some who couldn't even spell their names without doing it in syllables) and a suprising number of them had not and still have not jolted themselves. I guess that doesn't speak too highly for me

Honestly, I am sure that there are a number of people out there who laugh at me and some of my experiences, and think that I am a bit of a clumsy idiot. If you are reading this and think the same,
you are right. :idea:

[tadream]

I think that there is a bit more circuitry involved for current control so it'll be a bit more research yet.
Ian.

Yes, there are several different methods of current control. Unfortunately, none of them are easily, or readily adaptable to existing machines. I, however, appreciate the desire/need to DIY more than most people, so if you'd like more info on that or the HF circuits, I'll be happy to post them, or answer you in a private message. Probably the most interesting to this crowd would be the very old method of a moveable shunt in the transformer, which moved a large chunk of iron laminations into and out of the core of the transformer with a leadscrew and crank handle. In the last days of those machines, a few were built with DC motors driving the screw, and a toggle switch to reverse the direction. Took a while to travel, so no remote control was ever offered. Things got a little prettier after that. BTW, I built my own HF unit out of scavenged parts about 20yrs. ago. Worked good. With current prices, it would cost you around $400 using new parts. I've never tried sourcing them from anyone except the OEMs, but the first two things you'll need are a transformer with about a 3600 volt secondary and a capacitor rated .01 microfarad & 5000 volts, as well as the spark gap assembly and a coupling coil.

[handlewanker]

Thanks Tad, there's a bit of circuitry about showing DIY HF's using other than OEM's which tend to be a bit expensive.
If I remember rightly an HF unit was built up from an ex microwave transformer, but I may be wrong on this.
I'll have to go back into my "save it" file for "engineering items of interest" and have a read up as to how and what was used.
Massajamesb, I spoke to a mate of mine today, who is a welder, and he reckons it was the HF that you got a zap from not the 400amp welding current as the voltage on the welding current is too low to zap you due to your body resistance being too high.
The same condition applies if you touched the terminals of a 12volt car battery with your bare hands, no current would flow at 12 volts even though the battery could deliver 450 amps, due to your body resistance being too high.
Don't try that with a spanner across the terminals otherwise the spanner would melt and the battery would probably explode due to the sudden discharge distorting the plates and shorting out internally.
Ian.