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IndustryArena Forum > Mechanical Engineering > Epoxy Granite > Epoxy-Granite machine bases (was Polymer concrete frame?)
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  1. #1761
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777
    Walter,

    It's probably obvious but don't forget to thoroughly degrease the aluminum parts (perhaps with acetone) and perhaps also roughen the surface a bit with coarse sandpaper for maximum adhesion. I'd personally try to avoid even fingerprints on the aluminum but that may be overkill.

    You're looking real good on this. I can't wait to see your results!

    --Cameron

  2. #1762
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    12177
    I don't know if it would be feasible for any aluminum parts you will be embedding but I have found anodizing improves adhesion of epoxies to aluminum. And if the pre-anodizing alkali etch is a bit prolonged to give a dull finish it is better.

    And it is important to keep your fingers off the anodized surfaces; you want them going into the epoxy as pristine as they came out of the sealing tank.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  3. #1763
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    792
    Those are very good advices, thank you!

    I'm still 2 or 3 weeks away but pushing hard.. Ordering vibrating motors, wax. And you know what? I'm going to use one of those cool KitchenAid mixers! You know the funky color ones.. I found a used one on Ebay. Mixing epoxy with aggregate was the only awful part and now I'm going to actually enjoy it.

    I forgot to ask about tool cleaning. This job will take many hours- how do I keep the mixing fork clean? Do I have to clean it between batches? I may not have the time. And I don't want to use lacquer thinner. Any ideas?
    _
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mixing tool.jpg  

  4. #1764
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1425
    I'd suggest you wax the joints of the mold before you assemble it. If you get a small leak down into the joint, especially where the screws go through, just imagine the problem of taking it apart.
    Better grease the screws too.
    Methanol for the cheapest cleaning up of tools ?
    It's like doing jigsaw puzzles in the dark.
    Enjoy today's problems, for tomorrow's may be worse.

  5. #1765
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1256
    Methyl hydrate is a good cleaner,cheap and you can get it at Home Depot.
    You must clean between batches as any leftover epoxy will accelerate the next batch.Scraping the sides of the container and wiping the mix blade is probably enough depending on how fast you get to the next batch ,or use a fresh cheap plastic bucket every mix.The bucket is probably cheaper than the solvent to clean it.
    Larry
    L GALILEO THE EPOXY SURFACE PLATE IS FLAT

  6. #1766
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777

    The many names of Methyl Hydrate

    Methyl Hydrate=Methyl Alcohol=Methanol=Lacquer Thinner=Fondue Fuel=Wood Alcohol

    These are all the same thing for any out there who are confused. I think those on the other side of the pond also use name Methylated Spirits.

    --Cameron

  7. #1767
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    12177
    Quote Originally Posted by ckelloug View Post
    Methyl Hydrate=Methyl Alcohol=Methanol=Lacquer Thinner=Fondue Fuel=Wood Alcohol

    These are all the same thing for any out there who are confused. I think those on the other side of the pond also use name Methylated Spirits.

    --Cameron
    Lacquer Thinner also contains other solvents such as Toluene or Methylene Chloride. It is a more powerful solvent than straight Methanol.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  8. #1768
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    792
    I've used lacquer thinner in the past- I'm just afraid it may affect the composite.

    But I do like it's simplicity..

  9. #1769
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777
    Walter,

    Lacquer Thinner with the added components Geof Mentioned in some varieties or plain methanol are both very volatile. If you leave the cleaned utensils out in the sun for a few minutes when it's hot out, I'd figure you had a pretty darn good chance of 100% of them evaporating. Actually, leaving them on a bench in a cool room is likely to have them evaporate too. Methanol fumes and especially the extra "god knows what" in lacquer thinner are not healthy.

    --Cameron

  10. #1770
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    792

    BYK C8000 Coupling Agent

    Quote Originally Posted by ckelloug View Post
    This one is so hot the vapor hasn't condensed yet. It's still vaporware in terms of buying it but since nobody will sell us anything, the fact that samples are available bodes well for this crowd.

    Here's the datasheet. The datasheet is not as complete as the blurb you posted. http://www.byk.com/output/download/E500_USA.pdf

    Because they cite results of an amine titration in the datasheet, it will increase the required hardener in our epoxy.

    I missed that part.

    How much more hardener? The total amount of C8000? I'm using about 2g per 600g sample.

  11. #1771
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777
    Walter,

    Let me look into this. I expect that the answer is miniscule but I never did go through the chemistry to find out. I'll try bugging a BYK apps engineer this afternoon about the A 8000.

    --Cameron

  12. #1772
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777
    Walter,

    From what I've been able to find on the web, mix ratios that are within 5% of the specified ratio are going to work fine. Since the 2g of BYK C8000 are apt to be a drop in the bucket compared to 600 g of epoxy, my best theory says that in a batch of this size, don't worry about the BYK C8000. I still don't have a 100% understanding of the chemistry here, but I think you're all right in terms of just ignoring the effect.

    --Cameron

  13. #1773
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3

    Filling a milling machine column with concrete

    I have done that on a small Bridgeport type milling machine with high strenght 240 Kg/cm2 concrete with 3/4" agregate and it simply turned the machine incredibly solid and its vibrations in discontinue milling were reduced to almost negligible.

    SACEM

  14. #1774
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538
    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    Lacquer Thinner also contains other solvents such as Toluene or Methylene Chloride. It is a more powerful solvent than straight Methanol.
    I looked at the msds for the Home Depot laquer thinner I have, and it's only 20% methanol. Mostly Hexane (Naptha) with the other stuff that was mentioned.

    Walter, West System sells an aluminum etching solution for bonding with epoxy. They also recommend "wet sanding" with epoxy and 80 grit paper.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  15. #1775
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1256
    Straight Methyl hydrate works very well for cleaning epoxy from tools.Stay away from lacquer thinner it is more volatile .The methylene chloride component is highly toxic and used in paint strippers.Residue may hurt your epoxy mix.
    Methyl hydrate will evaporate very fast and will not contaminate the mix.Being a alcohol,It is actually can act as a catalyst with epoxy.This stuff evaporates so rapidly any residue from cleaning will not be there in a few minutes.Also methyl hydrate is half the cost of lacquer thinner.In a pinch,if you have no methyl hydrate,here in Canada we have an alcohol called Crown Royal.I hear it will work but have not tried it myself.It is 4 times the cost of lacquer thinner.MSDS flammable liquid.If ingested ,it is better "ON THE ROCKS"????Must mean on the granite rocks.High toxicology!!!May cause intoxification,bableing and affect posts.Use in low %ages.
    BYK-C8000?Missed the posts on this.It is not available until August.If using this or other chemicals check the MSDS please.
    Walter I may be behind in reading posts.Recent posts suggest you are embedding aluminium.Is this so.
    Larry
    L GALILEO THE EPOXY SURFACE PLATE IS FLAT

  16. #1776
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    792

    Great stuff, thank you all!

    Another awesome post from Larry.. And yes, I am embedding aluminum. I have this Single Plane idea and no place to use it so I'm just going to put it in here.
    It takes care of rail mounting so I can worry about other stuff. Like sportiness.

    Speaking of which.. Check out the detail on this E/G leftover! It was dumped into the plastic box, placed on a shaker and pressed. These letters are 1/8" tall. I think it's the G800 Zeeospheres.. There's a huge difference between G850 and G800- one is 12-200 micron and the other 2-200 micron but the grading is different. They're world apart. See picture #2.

    Thanks for all the great advice.
    _
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fine detail with G800 Zeeospheres.jpg   Zeeospheres G800 vs G850.jpg  

  17. #1777
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    89
    I think you should use steel instead of aluminium because of vibrations. Just a thought.

  18. #1778
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    792
    Thanks Eson.

    Steel would have been a better choice - cast aluminum sustains like a $3k Gibson Les Paul (For the uninitiated- it's 14 seconds ).

    The other side of the argument is that it's pre-ground and easy to maneuver- I don't really have any metal working tools. I'm building my router with 2 screwdrivers, one power cord and $38 Harbor Freight benchtop mini drill.

    It's also a woodcarving machine- already too rigid and powerful for my needs. Joe's CNC model 2006 would be enough.. I'm into 3d carvings:
    _
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sample1.jpg   Sample2.jpg  

  19. #1779
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    777

    No Go on BYK C-8000

    Walter et. al.,

    I just received the following from BYK technical support indicating that C8000 is not effective in epoxy.

    <Blockquote>
    Hi Cameron,

    I am sorry, but I have to let you know, that the product C8000 is not effective in epoxy systems.

    For epoxy we have only products to reduce the viscosity and get a better wetting of the fillers. For example BYK-W 985 or BYK-W 995. The amount would be 1% based on filler.
    The other possibility to may improve the mechanical properties would be to use an air release additive like BYK-A 530, because the air bubbles are small defects.

    Kind regards

    Elke Tendick
    Technical Service Ambient Curing Resins
    Plastics Additives

    BYK-Chemie GmbH
    Abelstrasse 45
    46483 Wesel
    Germany
    </Blockquote>

  20. #1780
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1661
    I was searching the Internet after something else, when I found this site.
    It's not any new information, but it seems to prove some of the ideas in this thread.
    http://www.pillevaran.com/Pages/PRO07-eng.html

    Regards,
    Sven

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