[mountaindew]

I tend to have product name and vendor loyalty. If I like the company and product line I tend to make all my purchases from them to support their business even if the cost is a little more. Long term this helps the possible expansion of services, products and the development of new products to use. Much like a buy local if possible to help support my community and the business located here.

[109jb]

Thanks for that point - very interesting.

I am not sure if the examples of stop collars that you quote that predate Tormach actually go around and clear of the collet and engage on the spindle end face in the way the TTS does?

I think this idea was thought of by Greg Jackson.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Keen

So what you are saying is that Tormach invented the idea of the tool holder touching the spindle face for axial locating.

Just search for "Dual contact toolholder", or "face contact toolholder", and you will see that there are myriads of them out there touting the axial locating due to the face contact.

Just as a note, I don't own a single TTS style tool holder, either Tormach brand or any other brand, at the moment. Currently, I use R8 tool holders and locating on a solid shank R8 tool holder is very repeatable, rigid, and no chance of tool pull out. As a hobbyist I just don't feel the need for buying additional tooling that I don't really need at the moment.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I am not sure if the examples of stop collars that you quote that predate Tormach actually go around and clear of the collet and engage on the spindle end face in the way the TTS does?

I think this idea was thought of by Greg Jackson.

Why, then, did he not patent it, as he did the design of the set-screw holder? The only logical answer is because it was not unique or new, and was not patentable.

Regards,
Ray L.

[keen]

Why, then, did he not patent it, as he did the design of the set-screw holder? The only logical answer is because it was not unique or new, and was not patentable.

Regards,
Ray L.

Hi Ray - Good point. He may well have tried to patent it, only to find it was not unique.

Keen

[keen]

So what you are saying is that Tormach invented the idea of the tool holder touching the spindle face for axial locating.

Just search for "Dual contact toolholder", or "face contact toolholder", and you will see that there are myriads of them out there touting the axial locating due to the face contact.

Just as a note, I don't own a single TTS style tool holder, either Tormach brand or any other brand, at the moment. Currently, I use R8 tool holders and locating on a solid shank R8 tool holder is very repeatable, rigid, and no chance of tool pull out. As a hobbyist I just don't feel the need for buying additional tooling that I don't really need at the moment.

Hi - Yes I agree dual contact is now common, and it probably was around then also, so I suppose it was the combination of collet stop and dual contact design that was unique.

But as Ray has stated, he did not achieve a patent of that design.

Keen

[philbur]

Hi Ray - Good point. He may well have tried to patent it, only to find it was not unique.

Keen

You should check out the "Tormach copies Gecko driver" issue from the early days.

Phil

[keen]

You should check out the "Tormach copies Gecko driver" issue from the early days.

Phil

Hi Phil.

Are you referring to the CNC zone 2005 thread - I have just read it - very interesting.

I thought Greg defended his position fairly well?

Keen

[extdrive]

I bought a batch of TTS style ER20 tool holders from YSTOOL on ebay. I did some testing on them today after I was getting unexplained chatter. I was measuring .005-007" of run-out on the worst couple in the batch. I'll test the rest in the next couple days. Maybe I got a bad batch. Very disappointed in them. I've emailed the seller to see if he is willing to refund/exchange them. For reference my genuine Tormach TTS holders all measure less than 0.0005" of run-out.

I misspoke regarding the run-out I was seeing on those tool holders. It was late when I was running the test and I guess I was tired because I forgot I was using the 0.0005 indicator and not the 0.001 indicator. So the run-out was really only half as bad as I thought it was. Still unacceptable though. For anyone keeping track here are my results from testing all 10 of them again today.
1. 0.003" (.062mm)
2. 0.004" (.1016mm)
3. 0.002" (.0508mm)
4. 0.0025" (.0635mm)
5. 0.0015" (.0381mm)
6. 0.0005" (.0127mm)
7. 0.0035" (.0889mm)
8. 0.004" (.1016mm)
9. 0.004"(.1016mm)
10. 0.003" (.062mm)
I posted a quick video of the test on youtube to send to the eBay seller. He replied to my first email and I'm hopeful he is willing to make things right.

[keen]

I misspoke regarding the run-out I was seeing on those tool holders. It was late when I was running the test and I guess I was tired because I forgot I was using the 0.0005 indicator and not the 0.001 indicator. So the run-out was really only half as bad as I thought it was. Still unacceptable though. For anyone keeping track here are my results from testing all 10 of them again today.
1. 0.003" (.062mm)
2. 0.004" (.1016mm)
3. 0.002" (.0508mm)
4. 0.0025" (.0635mm)
5. 0.0015" (.0381mm)
6. 0.0005" (.0127mm)
7. 0.0035" (.0889mm)
8. 0.004" (.1016mm)
9. 0.004"(.1016mm)
10. 0.003" (.062mm)
I posted a quick video of the test on youtube to send to the eBay seller. He replied to my first email and I'm hopeful he is willing to make things right.

Thanks for posting that. The test you are using does not test the holders concentricity in isolation, however is probably fairly representative.

Please see my report attached. Cheers Keen

[extdrive]

Thanks for posting that. The test you are using does not test the holders concentricity in isolation, however is probably fairly representative.

Please see my report attached. Cheers Keen

I agree, your setup is better. I didn't have a v-block and maybe the patience to be as thorough as you were. I think given a sample set of 10 though its probably statistically representative of the run-out. I ought to have included video of the runout of my spindle and R8 collet as well, both well under 0.0005.

[extdrive]

Quick update: I got a package from ebay seller YSTOOL today. Came all the way from China. Not sure how he got it here this quick. We agreed just 2 days ago that he would send replacement ER20 tool holders. The package included 10 tool holders. 5 of the style I originally purchased and 5 that appear to be ATC compatible. So maybe he is going to start selling ATC compatible holders on ebay. I didn't have much time at lunch so I only tested one holder for runout. It had less than 0.0005" YAY!!! I'll test the others when I get a chance and report back if they are not of equal accuracy.

[keen]

Quick update: I got a package from ebay seller YSTOOL today. Came all the way from China. Not sure how he got it here this quick. We agreed just 2 days ago that he would send replacement ER20 tool holders. The package included 10 tool holders. 5 of the style I originally purchased and 5 that appear to be ATC compatible. So maybe he is going to start selling ATC compatible holders on ebay. I didn't have much time at lunch so I only tested one holder for runout. It had less than 0.0005" YAY!!! I'll test the others when I get a chance and report back if they are not of equal accuracy.

Appreciated - Thanks .

Keen

[extdrive]

Tested the rest of the holders. One didn't test real well. The others were acceptable.
Video here
youtu.be/Ly8o0cID6UE

[cs13368]

I think that MillFast Products still has a few on their web site. They say used but the one I saw looked new.

[extdrive]

So the ebay seller never asked for these tool holder with excessive runout to be returned. Would anyone have a use for them? I can't think that I will need them. They don't have the nuts because I had to steal them for the new tool holders I was sent. But if anyone wants them and is willing to pay shipping they are yours.

I misspoke regarding the run-out I was seeing on those tool holders. It was late when I was running the test and I guess I was tired because I forgot I was using the 0.0005 indicator and not the 0.001 indicator. So the run-out was really only half as bad as I thought it was. Still unacceptable though. For anyone keeping track here are my results from testing all 10 of them again today.
1. 0.003" (.062mm)
2. 0.004" (.1016mm)
3. 0.002" (.0508mm)
4. 0.0025" (.0635mm)
5. 0.0015" (.0381mm)
6. 0.0005" (.0127mm)
7. 0.0035" (.0889mm)
8. 0.004" (.1016mm)
9. 0.004"(.1016mm)
10. 0.003" (.062mm)
I posted a quick video of the test on youtube to send to the eBay seller. He replied to my first email and I'm hopeful he is willing to make things right.

[jdclark]

Do these holders pull up against the spindle or the collet- I got some and on my machine the collet protrudes past the spindle nose, so the holder was just indexing against the tapered end of the collet. I turned the end of the collet flat, and they were fine.

[extdrive]

Ya that's a good thought. I had wondered that myself. But I checked the stickout of my R8 collet and it was less than the recess in the tool holder.

Do these holders pull up against the spindle or the collet- I got some and on my machine the collet protrudes past the spindle nose, so the holder was just indexing against the tapered end of the collet. I turned the end of the collet flat, and they were fine.

[extdrive]

They've been claimed

[philbur]

Also for accurate measurement with a dti the stylus must be parallel to the surface being measured otherwise you get a cosine error.

Page 23 here explains:

https://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/produ...Indicators.pdf

Phil

[extdrive]

That's not quite accurate. You want the stylus perpendicular to the direction of the movement you wish to measure. So in this case I would want my stylus parallel to the axis of the spindle, not the taper of the tool holder. You are correct though my angle was still not parallel to the axis of the spindle. I'm probably within 25 degrees and my resulting error would be no greater than 10%. Good enough I believe for this application.

Your point is well taken though. It was bad form on my part to make a video with dti stylus at a bad angle.

Also for accurate measurement with a dti the stylus must be parallel to the surface being measured otherwise you get a cosine error.

Page 23 here explains:

https://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/produ...Indicators.pdf

Phil