[keen]

Hi Folks

I imagine some of us are considering our workshop Lathe options now that Rapidturn is adding to the choices. So I thought I would start a thread where we could debate the relative merits.

I will kick it off with a video on the subject.

Cheers Keen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWqaoJz45c

[MFchief]

Hi Keen,

I enjoyed you video, I how other folks get on board and add their thoughts. I am one of the folks who want to know a lot more about the rapid turn option. The main reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a slant pro is that something has to go to make room, but as just a hobbyist I don't need volume, so the rapid turn might work for me.

Your video did generate questions for me though, I'm not familiar with a "tool allocation DRO" and goggle didn't help. I'm guessing from the way you mentioned it that you can set it up for tools specific to a job and you would have X & Y dimensions for the job that you could turn to?

Terry

[keen]

Hi Keen,

I enjoyed you video, I how other folks get on board and add their thoughts. I am one of the folks who want to know a lot more about the rapid turn option. The main reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a slant pro is that something has to go to make room, but as just a hobbyist I don't need volume, so the rapid turn might work for me.

Your video did generate questions for me though, I'm not familiar with a "tool allocation DRO" and goggle didn't help. I'm guessing from the way you mentioned it that you can set it up for tools specific to a job and you would have X & Y dimensions for the job that you could turn to?

Terry

Hi Terry - Maybe tool allocation DRO is not a common term, maybe it is usually called multiple offset DRO.

It is just a set of connected offsets in the DRO that you assign to each tool, and makes manual turning much quicker.

You set the dia and length for each tool - then machining to drawing dimensions is a breeze.

I imagine some folk that are not familiar with this may buy a CNC lathe ....when for certain low volume work they would be better of with a modern manual lathe.

Keen

[MFchief]

Hi Keen, Yep looking for that in google shows lots of hits. It's a pretty nice feature, but I don't think the ancient dro on my lathe has it. Looks like an excuse to upgrade!

Getting back to the original purpose of your thread, has anyone figured out yet about having to connect the rapid turn the way it ended up for the high speed spindle? That would be a major downer, no possibility of growing to a full up 4th axis if that were true.

Terry

[MichaelHenry]

I don't have much CNC lathe experience yet, but you seem spot on to me with your CNC vs manual turning observations. Things get more interesting when you need to turn profiles or make metric male threads with an Imperial manual lathe.

If this was 8 years ago I'd buy the RapidTurn, but 2 years ago I'd buy the InTurn for the infinite indexing and continuous 4th axis capability. Today, I'm happy to have the Tormach lathe.

[kstrauss]

If by "growing to a full up 4th axis" you mean the ability to rotate the spindle an arbitrary number of degrees, mill, rotate, etc. you need several things:
Power to the mill spindle must be independent from the power to the lathe spindle.
The lathe axis must be able to turn in a small increment and stop.
There must be some means to lock the lathe axis -- pneumatic brake or something similar -- while milling.

None of these appear to be part of the basic RapidTurn nor would they be trivial to add. Simpson's InTurn Mega is probably the cheapest way to get what many of us would like.

[MFchief]

Everything you said is true. It's conceivable a later version or upgrade, could add a brake and such, but if it's going to use the mill's VFD to drive the lathe motor it seems impossible to me.

Terry

[kstrauss]

It wouldn't be impossible to replace the RapidTurn 3-phase motor with a servo motor + driver and control it with the step/dir normally used by the 4th axis or directly from the Mesa card. If the sticking point is moving the cable you could use a switch to swap between spindle and RapidTurn. Maybe Tormach has a plan...

[Tbkahuna]

I have the Duality lathe as well as the 4th axis add-on attachment for it. The duality lathe has its own motor that is plugged into an AC outlet and the spindle sensor cable that is plugged into the accessory port so the control software can get the position and RPM from the lathe. The 4th axis attachment for the duality lathe has a harmonic drive that plugs into the 4th axis driver for 4th axis programming. The 4th axis attachment engages the duality lathe spindle with a gear. It also has a clamp to lock it in when machining.

One thing I did not consider when first seeing the Rapidturn, is that by using the machine VFD for the lathe spindle drive, that it does not need the E-stop integration kit used with the Duality (so that an E-stop disables the machine AND the Duality.) I also have a fourth axis 8" table I use for anything major or more complex 4-axis machining.

I think Tormach realized that the main things lacking in the Duality lathe was the power and the once-per-rev sensor for threading position. The RapidTurn with a 1Hp motor and a two-position belt will be great as I see it. I geared down my Duality and that made a difference that worked well for me threading steel, aluminum, and some stainless. They have the HP greatly increased at the spindle. I will be glad to own a RapidTurn. They address the 4th axis needs very well by just adding the manual indexing at 15 degree increments. For my needs that will be great as I can do the indexing quickly except for the need to switch the spindle drive cable from the lathe back to the 1100. For a lot of things I need, that will be quick and almost painless, like add wrench flats to round parts.

I haven't looked at the RapidTurn closely enough to see if you could do the add-on 4th axis like they did with the Duality. My guess is that wasn't the biggest driver for people, and the cost and complexity wouldn't provide enough value. Maybe they would do that in the future, or someone will tackle that on their own. Then, the add-on would be plugged into the 4th axis driver for the indexing drive power, but you would still have to switch the main spindle cable.

I wish I had the room for the 15L lathe, but I will be able to do a lot with just the RapidTurn. I know it isn't popular, but I even like the Duality Lathe, especially after gearing it down. I looked at adding horsepower as well, but it was working for me with just the gear change (belt drive actually).

As another note, I noticed they added the RapidTurn inspection form to Documents on the Tormach website so you can see the specs they are being built to. They look pretty good for what I need.

Rob

[kstrauss]

My main concern with moving the power cable is whether the mill must be powered down in order to avoid damage to the VFD. If not, it would be easy to add a switch to quickly change over. You could even arrange to switch things with a relay and M-code. In any case the RapidTurn will meet most of my requirements and I don't have the room for a SlantPro.

[tmarks11]

My main concern with moving the power cable is whether the mill must be powered down in order to avoid damage to the VFD.

As long as the spindle isn't turning, nothing will be damaged.

However... I wonder if Tormach will set different parameters into the VFD, and you have to swap them with a USB thumb drive (sort of like when using the new speeder spindle motor). That would make the process a bit more painful. The RapidTurn motor is 1 hp, and the Tormach 1100 is 1.5, and generally you set a VFD with the maximum load (or current levels) so its internal overload sensing works correctly.

EDIT: And I was right! If you have the 1100, you will have to use the USB thumb drive to reprogram your VFD when swapping between RapidTurn and the main spindle.

The Programming key set is needed for using RapidTurn™ on the PCNC 1100. It is not needed for the PCNC 770.

.... and if you need to reprogram your VFD, the instruction manual (for the high speed spindle) tells you to power off your machine first....

VFD Programming
1. Power off machine according to Power Off/On Procedure earlier in this document.

IMPORTANT! Ensure mill is off before inserting VFD Programming Stick.

2. Insert included VFD Programming Stick (HSS) nto VFD with gold contacts on left as shown in Figure 26.

Direct Document and Software Download | Tormach Inc. providers of personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items.

You can cheat, through. Opening the spindle door opens the C2 contactor, which secures power to the spindle, but everything else is powered on. It should then be safe to reprogram the VFD, and not worry about losing offsets.

However, the switch is a really good idea. You can get a rotary switch with three poles (for about $20-30... I recommend you look for a CA20 three pole, three position Krauss Naimer switch on eBay).

[Tbkahuna]

And I was right! If you have the 1100, you will have to use the USB thumb drive to reprogram your VFD when swapping between RapidTurn and the main spindle.

I did not know what the programming key set meant. That is a pretty big negative for how I would want to use it. But, if it is a pretty quick process, with very little chance of a failure to program, it would be tolerable.

All considered, in the spirit of this thread, I would use the RapidTurn quite a bit if the threading is good.
I do have a 12x36 manual lathe as well. It will still get used for long stuff or where more accuracy is needed.

I wish the main Tormach spindle had some sort of a spindle sensor to allow for threading (as in single point mill turning) and support for easy programming was incorporated into PathPilot. I would have a tool block set up and mapped out to face, turn, drill, bore, and thread a workpiece held in the main spindle. I recall someone has implemented a sensor, but the modification to get the controller to work was too much for me to mess with. My thought was that if Tormach took that on it would create a pretty simple means to turn short parts, and thread them without having to go through much of a setup and conversion. I don't know if the spindle and bearings would be up for that, but I tend to baby the machine so I wouldn't worry about that anyway.

[tmarks11]

But, if it is a pretty quick process, with very little chance of a failure to program, it would be tolerable.

I haven't done it, but it seems pretty straight forward:
1. Turn off the VFD
2. Insert the USB key
3. Turn on the VFD.

...and done!

There is a different USB key to reprogram it back to spindle use.

I wish the main Tormach spindle had some sort of a spindle sensor to allow for threading...I recall someone has implemented a sensor...

Pretty sure that is TurboStep, and his modification was to run another cable back to a separate parallel port, IIRC.

I am betting that Tormach will sell a spindle encoder mod as part of the "Series IV" upgrade (whenever that happens). Path pilot already supports it; the problem is that Tormach break-out board would probably have to be replaced with something that had additional I/O pins for the encoder.

[Tbkahuna]

If it can be done by just turning off just the VFD, then it wouldn't be too big of a problem. I thought it was the whole machine, but I do not know why. I looked at the high speed spindle instructions and that is what it shows. If you have to shut down the whole machine, then it would not be real simple to use the machine spindle to finish a part with manual indexing.

But, if I only had to mount the RapidTurn and do that VFD programming procedure to be able to do CNC turning then I would still probably live with that, and just work that into how I used it. I would at least be able to do some work as a CNC lathe then take 10 minutes to change the machine to the main spindle, or maybe even just mount the Kress as an auxiliary spindle and use it with the RapidTurn, then go back to the normal 1100 mill setup and main spindle.

Yes, interesting to think about the Series IV having the encoder, and whatever else they come up with. I have a Series 2 and have been postponing the S3 upgrade. I would like the faster Z, but that isn't such a big deal.

As of right now, I would still want to use the RapidTurn until I could get a 15L, and would be very happy with just the RapidTurn.

[tmarks11]

If it can be done by just turning off just the VFD, then it wouldn't be too big of a problem. I thought it was the whole machine, but I do not know why. I looked at the high speed spindle instructions and that is what it shows.

You are correct, that is what it shows. But as I said, you can cheat by just securing power to the VFD using the spindle door switch or the key switch. Powering down the rest of the machine wouldn't have any additional benefit.

Maybe Tormach just wants to get all the power out of the machine before you mess with it, but the high voltage is pretty well covered up in the controller cabinet. Just don't go poking stuff with a screwdriver and it is all good.

Or... you could mount a little USB extension cable going to an external port to the VFD.... then you have faster access.

Attachment 321766

[JW_55Degrees]

The Emerson VFD is not programmed with a USB stick. The LogicStick is a custom part.

JW

[kstrauss]

The Emerson VFD is not programmed with a USB stick. The LogicStick is a custom part.
JW

And from the Tormach description the programming key is only required on the 1100. I assume that is because both the spindle and RapidTurn motors on the 770 are 1HP.

[AVRnj]

If it can be done by just turning off just the VFD, then it wouldn't be too big of a problem. I thought it was the whole machine, but I do not know why. I looked at the high speed spindle instructions and that is what it shows. If you have to shut down the whole machine, then it would not be real simple to use the machine spindle to finish a part with manual indexing.

But, if I only had to mount the RapidTurn and do that VFD programming procedure to be able to do CNC turning then I would still probably live with that, and just work that into how I used it. I would at least be able to do some work as a CNC lathe then take 10 minutes to change the machine to the main spindle, or maybe even just mount the Kress as an auxiliary spindle and use it with the RapidTurn, then go back to the normal 1100 mill setup and main spindle.

Yes, interesting to think about the Series IV having the encoder, and whatever else they come up with. I have a Series 2 and have been postponing the S3 upgrade. I would like the faster Z, but that isn't such a big deal.

As of right now, I would still want to use the RapidTurn until I could get a 15L, and would be very happy with just the RapidTurn.

Are there any rumblings about a series IV? Is there any reason to believe one is somewhat close? I'd love to see a new stand with better drainage, along with a few other nice mods, maybe an integrated path pilot into the electronics.

[tmarks11]

Are there any rumblings about a series IV? Is there any reason to believe one is somewhat close? I'd love to see a new stand with better drainage, along with a few other nice mods, maybe an integrated path pilot into the electronics.

no...

unfortunately...

I also wish that Tormach would take a page from their 770 design and fix the drainage on the 1100 stand. Looking at what they did with the 440, however their newest design is worse.

And from the Tormach description the programming key is only required on the 1100. I assume that is because both the spindle and RapidTurn motors on the 770 are 1HP.

That would be my guess as well.

[keen]

Hi Guys.

Regarding RapidTurn.

Will someone please talk us through this in laymen's terms...like:

I gather the Pathpilot slant pro control software will be fully functional?

So we plug the main drive motor into the need to be installed power socket on the mill head, and other steps inc speed calibration via USB stick may or may not may need to be taken that we are yet to confirm ?

We switch our control software over to 'lathe' via a selection option that will be installed when the software is loaded or initialised?

We plug in the counter/encoder cable to sync the setup, we reference the connections so it all syncs?

Now it will run just like a SlantPro? The X is the part length travel and the Diameter is via the Z in the vertical? Or is the mill Cross travel now called the Z?....Or?

Can we use the mill Y travel for gang tooling like the Slant pro if we made a gang tooling block mounted on the head?

Keen