[deadlykitten]

hello guys, is it possible to detect from code if machine is in restart sequence ?

so to avoid executing something, like variable initialization ? kindly !

[OkumaWiz]

Try VRSTT system variable. You should already see it in the Switch check program that I gave you.

Best regards,

[deadlykitten]

hello again mr. Wizard ... can't find that "Switch check program" ... or, at least, VRSTT states : 0normal / 1restarting ? kindly !

don't worry, i just hit into Darth Vader, speaking about VRSTT states: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/okuma/...tailstock.html

i can't believe it ... they are washing his face and give him haircut ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOn-Rv0dpHQ

[OkumaWiz]

His sample is perfect:

IF[VRSTT NE 0] NSKIP

If restart is not active, don't jump. If active (anything other than 0) jump to NSKIP

Mission accomplished!

PS> I still haven't heard how you are scaring mice on the north pole from Antarctica. Not from the sound of your crashes I hope!

[deadlykitten]

hello, for osp-p300l, VRSTT states : 0_restart_inactive / 128_restart_active

i needed it for something, but when i see that it works, i also used it to reduce restart-duration

i declare each phase/sequence inside a ssb; i modify general structure like is :

O....

variables initialization

  ( * )

IF [ VRSTT NE 0 ] NEND

safe position / index / tool approach / cutting / safe position

NEND

RTS

now i run a simple program; restart duration reduced from 6 to ~2 seconds

caution ... not all sequences are subject to this ... tailstock for example

if " IF [ VRSTT NE 0 ] NEND " would be 1st line inside the ssb file, than restart will take place after this sequence; so desired phase to restart will be skiped

[OkumaWiz]

Of course use caution when skipping during a restart since you could be skipping code that is important. In your example, you just skipped all of your "safe positions".

You are correct that restart duration can be shortened, but graphics information, tool calls, etc. will be off so you need to make sure that you are calling up EVERYTHING needed to restart properly.

BTW since you are going down the "dangerous road" (careful kitty) you can also number search or scroll to a point in the program that you want to restart at and then press INTERLOCK and CYCLE START at the same time to begin from that point. Of course the same rules apply, you MUST be at a safe restart point. Typically I will put in safe restart points such as NT1 for tool 1, NT5 for tool 5, etc. so that I know I have a good restart point for each tool. My cad does this automatically when I use it.

Best regards,

PS> still waiting :-) switch check program attached - change extension back to .SSB after download.

[deadlykitten]

you just skipped all of your "safe positions"

only code before restart position is skiped, including " safe positions(SP) " ... during restart i don't take into consideration SP from previous operations

- also, for continuity reasons, there is always a conection between "end_sp of one sequence" and "start_sp of next one"
- they share at least X or Z positions; i use :
.... X_fix & Z_fix for OD tools that work near parts front
.... only X_fix and random Z for OD tools that work near parts end
.... only Z_fix and ranfdom X for ID tools

but graphics information >>> this is not critical ...yes, it helps ... i don't use it

tool calls

when restarting i don't call tools, but sequences ... i write each sequence inside a ssb, and just call them from main program ...

there is an image with sequences for a program that runs now :
...first column holds adrreses for each phase
...2nd call soubroutine
...3rd is for coments
...4th is for tool description
...5th is for required P cadran
...6th was added today, and it highlight phases that are skiped during restart

there are 16 phases and 8 tool references ... there are :
... identical tools on turret
... phases performed by same tool

modular / fast to see / easy to import, export, mix like a rubik cube

press INTERLOCK and CYCLE START at the same time to begin from that point >>> i did not know that ... i'll try it

still waiting >>> working on sky is my lower limit

switch check program >>> this is new ... i will inspect it / at first glance looks alien

[deadlykitten]

number search or scroll

i can locate restart phrase/address only by search ...

i have tried to scroll, but it does not work : i pushed "down arrow" , " page down "

also, i enter " edit mode ", there i have scrolled to desired position, but i can't restart from "edit mode" ... well / i don't know what you reffer by scrolling ... i tried

i'll try anything you wish ... if you wish ...

then press INTERLOCK and CYCLE START at the same time to begin from that point

once i locate desired position, by search, i press attached button + green

if i press IL + green ( concomitent ) , than i receive an error

... so ...

idea was to reduce restart duration, and so far i succeded by going down the "dangerous road"

i tried what you said, because i thought that it may be an alternative ... even if solution described at post 5 works, i would be glad to avoid it and instead use "scroll"+"IL" or whatever buttons, that works faster

restart duration is long, because machine verifies all stuff till that point ...
sometimes programs are simple, but long, so restart duration will be increased, a lot of stuff will be verified, but all will be perfect in the end ... so in this case is normal to wish for a phisical restart : just start from there ... don't verify, i tell you that is all good so far


just start from there >> if a lot of restarts occure at same position, maybe is better to split the program right there ; also, a GOTO near program begining will solve it

don't verify, i tell you that is all good so far >> this is the " dangerous road" ; well, i am comfortable with it, and what i mean is that i don't feel like making experiments ... i had this in mind for long time, and darth vader just came in

PS : there are things still left mysterious here :
....swith check : no time 4 it so far
....your waiting ....
....and i just observed that under darth vader is morris midwest label ... good day to you mr wizard

[OkumaWiz]

You must be in a reset condition in order to scroll using down arrow in auto mode. Then interlock+cycle start will work. You can also scroll after doing number search.

[deadlykitten]

interlock + cycle start

hello, it works :) once you switch to auto, also must focus program window ... in auto there are 3 zones on screen that can receive focus ( pls see image ), and i was not where i should be; once a zone is focused, it is bounded by that blue rectangle :)

using IL+play on code with M66, requires M867 :)

is interesting, because :
...... i have always M867 at program begining, and so it seems that IL+play skips it :)
...... if tailstock should be engaged, but i restart by IL+play with tailstock at home position / not engaged, than i receive a tailstock error

...... so it skips M867, but not the tailstock .... hmm
...... normal restart does not require M867 inside every sequence ...


so general structure, now, is as below :

O....

variables initialization

  ( * )

IF [ VRSTT NE 0 ] NEND

M867
safe position 1
< index M66 > < S / SB ... > < tool approach M63 >
cutting
safe position 2

NEND

RTS

thx mr wizard :)

[deadlykitten]

il + play / skipping behaviour

il+play :
......1) does not skip tailstock advance
......2) skips M867 from program begining
......3) skips tailstock retreat from program begining

i use 3) because :
...... safety reason, to be sure that tailstock is at home position every time the program starts / i can remove it, so operator should be more carefull
...... otherwise, if i remove it, than i must switch that key twice for each program run ; if i keep it, than key is always in the same position, and i let it be like that till next cnc setup ... i guess in 1 month ? ... i pray to " short setups & long machining " god ... actually i pray to "no setups & no fixtures" god

it would be nice to have no worries about this skipping behaviour, because ... because potatoes can be fried ...

i will try again, maybe i am missing something ... later ... nope, "il+play" fails on tailstock where "search+restart" works ...

[broby]

il
it would be nice to have no worries about this skipping behaviour, because ... because potatoes can be fried ...

i will try again, maybe i am missing something ... later ... nope,

WTF has frying potatoes got to do with a Sequence Restart Skip programming sequence???

You are a strange person.

Whether you "Skip" anything in a restart mode is totally up to you and your programming method (what ever the hell that might be) there is no ODD behavior involved... only you
If you program to skip in a restart state then the program WILL skip, otherwise it will not... Why is that strange?

[deadlykitten]

there is no ODD behavior involved... Why is that strange?

there are discussed issues about restarting : " scroll + IL + green (method_1)" vs " search + restart button + green (method_2)"

in the attached movie, there is restarted same location, with method_1, and after with method_2; as you can see, method_1 failes, while method_2 goes nice

so far method_1 skips things like :
......M867 from program begining
......tailstock retreat from program begining
......so there is something else

Whether you "Skip" anything in a restart mode is totally up to you and your programming method (what ever the hell that might be)

there are behaviour differences between these 2 methods; as you can see, in post 10, i had to modify the program for method_1 to work

so skiping depends on restart method, and not on code

programming approaches may vary; you can obtain same part differently ; whatever you do, can't avoid M55 / M56 for tailstock ...

WTF has frying potatoes got to do with a Sequence Restart Skip programming sequence???

i don't know ... really have no clue ... ... is it grammatically incorrect?

with a bit of luck this thread can turn into a war zone ... again

[deadlykitten]

you and your programming method

this post is only a modest example; nothing more ...

( . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . )

beside structure from post7, i also log data for each code variant

if enough functionality is added to consider a new code variant, than i keep the old one, and make modifications inside a new copy; for each variant i highlight differences; in the attached image, variants 5..7 are for restart procedures, and they are labeled "unsafe"

latest variants may be machinable, or demo-tests ... like this i can always go back to a previous safe state and continue from there

programs, and not only, i always back-up on a memory stick and also at home ... just in case, if one PC crashes, i have a spare 1 meter near, or at home, that has all i need to continue without interruption

for data backup there are also clouds, but i don't like them, because they require net connection ...

i use " free file sync " ... here : FreeFileSync - Free Backup and File Synchronization Software

[deadlykitten]

lL + play / skipping behaviour solved

if "IL+play" skips something, than just insert skipped code @ each operation begining

in my case :
.... tailstock to safe position, when tailstock is used, otherwise key must be switched before restart to right, and after restart, to left
.... M867 to allow M66

note : code add-ons are not neccesary when restarting by " search + restart button + play "

O....

send tailstock to safe position

variables initialization

  ( * )

IF [ VRSTT NE 0 ] NEND

M867
safe position 1
< index M66 > < S / SB ... > < tool approach M63 >
cutting
safe position 2

NEND

RTS

[tea hole]

Mill guys are familiar with the number search+cycle start method, however mills don't require the IL button be pressed to do so.
On a lathe, safety can only be achieved by not running the machine. If you want it completely safe, turn off the power, kick the breaker, shut off the lights and go home. Respectfully.
I completely understand "dummy proofing" a setup, but as soon as you do, they make a dumber dummy.
That said, during a restart with an NC tailstock especially (or programmable tow along for that matter) it acts "weird" sometimes. But only to the operator.
Best thing to do is create safety checks for each operation checking each specific thing that must be true for something to be safe and if it isn't true, do something else first.

In other words:

PART.MIN

CALL OOP1
CALL OOP2
CALL OOP3
CALL OOP4

M2

OOP1
LOAD VARIALBES
CHUCK CLAMPED?
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED?
COOLANT ON?
SEATS AND TRAY TABLES IN FULLY UPRIGHT POSITION?

FACE PART

RTS

OOP2
LOAD VARIALBES
CHUCK CLAMPED?
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED?
COOLANT ON?
ARMS AND FEET INSIDE THE RIDE?

CENTER DRILL

RTS

OOP3
LOAD VARIALBES
CHUCK CLAMPED?
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED?
COOLANT ON?
YOU SURE YOU'RE WIFE'S OUT OF TOWN?

ENGAGE TAILSTOCK IF NOT ALREADY...
(OR)
IF ENGAGED, SKIP
CALL OOP2
SKIP
(END OR)
TURN PART

RTS

OOP4
LOAD VARIALBES
CHUCK CLAMPED?
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED?
COOLANT ON?
GUESS YOU WERE WRONG.

ENGAGE TAILSTOCK IF NOT ALREADY...
(OR)
IF ENGAGED, SKIP
CALL OOP2
CALL OOP3
SKIP

THREAD PART

RTS

I've also used an operation counter via local/common variables to count how many operations have been done and based what it can/will do on that number

My advice, simplify your programs.
Yes, a machine can be crashed.
I've crashed a machine. Today probably.
But, you cannot prevent it.
My recommendation is make it as easy as possible for an operator to restart by limiting his options and at a certain point, the part will be worth less than the time it takes to restart it (possibly) or the costs of crashes due to incomplete parts being restarted.
IE: if it is incredibly difficult to restart a part once the tailstock has been engaged, the down time of repair and the repair itself will cost way more than whatever part you're making.
I HIGHLY discourage the down arrow/number search then IL+C/S method of restart. Talked to a guy a year or so ago who had a mill guy running a lathe do that on a lathe that was doing 3 dozen safety checks but he didn't know how to do a lathe restart.
LB3000 w/ 400hrs on it. Total. He crashed so hard into the spindle he broke the X axis slide of the machine because of it.
At some point, your macros and safety checks become the CAUSE of crashes rather than the PREVENTION of them.

Just my two pennies.

[deadlykitten]

If you want it completely safe, turn off the power, kick the breaker, shut off the lights and go home. Respectfully >>> that's the spirit ; don't lose it

CHUCK CLAMPED ? >>> machine checks that by default
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED ? >>> machine checks that by default
COOLANT ON ? >>> is it possible to verify if, after M08, operator stopped cooland from panel ?
SEATS AND TRAY TABLES IN FULLY UPRIGHT POSITION? >>> i always instruct my operators to move turret up & right before a restart ... i guess i may verify from code stuff like that, but i bet on operator's attention

YOU SURE YOU'RE WIFE'S OUT OF TOWN?

this is nice ... sneaking jokes

once i was talking with a friend about old cinema cartoons parents were going with their kids, so not to leave a child alone .... so far so good

well, guys from cinema, from projector, where inserting xxx scenes during the cartoons these scenes were very short, very fast, so out of kids reaction time, but just enough for the adulst to start thinking ... is that kind of timing, when things happen so fast, and you wake up long after

i just rememebered something : i was breaking because traffic lights were red ... it was night ... i was looking straight ahead, and i saw a light shape on my rear-mirror ... light shape, not head lights ... so i changed my eyes to the mirror ... and then i saw in front of my car, on the near street lane a nissan gtr ... this guy in a fraction of a second reduced speed from whatever and zig-zaged between 3 lanes ... also, even if breaking was hard, there had been no tire sounds ... also machine front did not lean ... it was so natural ... at green it launched ... i was looking and i continued my way home thinking about that

I've crashed a machine >>> me too ; so far i recorded 2 crashes : i remember 1st one : i was looking how a big drill was going to hit the chuch, and i did not know what to do so i just continue looking ... i knew i will be in trouble

it is incredibly difficult to restart a part once the tailstock has been engaged >>> why ? it's so easy & boring ... i have such a setup right now

At some point, your macros and safety checks become the CAUSE of crashes rather than the PREVENTION of them ... it may be true ; so called " unsafe sentiment of safety " ; when you do something wrong, being sure is correct

all the best teahole

[tea hole]

CHUCK CLAMPED ? >>> machine checks that by default
TAILSTOCK ENGAGED ? >>> machine checks that by default
COOLANT ON ? >>> is it possible to verify if, after M08, operator stopped cooland from panel ?

Yes. This is easy. I do it all the time.
Check VORD[0095E]

SEATS AND TRAY TABLES IN FULLY UPRIGHT POSITION? >>> i always instruct my operators to move turret up & right before a restart ... i guess i may verify from code stuff like that, but i bet on operator's attention

I will simply state that I don't bet on any operator doing anything. Ever. My idea of safety checks include verifying the coolant is on.

this is nice ... sneaking jokes

You're welcome.

once i was talking with a friend about old cinema cartoons parents were going with their kids, so not to leave a child alone .... so far so good

well, guys from cinema, from projector, where inserting xxx scenes during the cartoons these scenes were very short, very fast, so out of kids reaction time, but just enough for the adulst to start thinking ... is that kind of timing, when things happen so fast, and you wake up long after

i just rememebered something : i was breaking because traffic lights were red ... it was night ... i was looking straight ahead, and i saw a light shape on my rear-mirror ... light shape, not head lights ... so i changed my eyes to the mirror ... and then i saw in front of my car, on the near street lane a nissan gtr ... this guy in a fraction of a second reduced speed from whatever and zig-zaged between 3 lanes ... also, even if breaking was hard, there had been no tire sounds ... also machine front did not lean ... it was so natural ... at green it launched ... i was looking and i continued my way home thinking about that

The GTR is a vehicle that shook automotive thinking pretty hard. A Nissan. This is a Japanese vehicle. They make garbage. (Circa 1970's thinking). The introduction of the Skyline, which has several iterations, the GTR made people do a double take. Between that an the Honda NSX, it was a paradigm shift. Ferrari and Lamborghini weren't safe any more. I recall a friend who was stationed in Germany years ago was driving on the Autobahn when he was passed by a Ferrari like he was standing still. Only after it passed did he realize there was an NSX about a foot behind it. He estimated they were doing north of 120mph. The GTR really came to world wide notoriety with the introduction of the R34 GTR with the RB26DETT strait 6 and AWD (In my opinion. Not that it wasn't popular in cult followings. See: Datsun). The R34 to me encompassed the spirit of taking a platform and improving it and at a point looking back to realize "crap, we made something amazing. Where do we go from here?". This is evident to me in the R35, which, while impressive is a complete departure from the spirit of the R32/33/34 Skylines. And it's ugly. This was designed to be amazing, and is. But it isn't good that is amazing. Don't get me wrong, I'd rock a G car any day (Infinity G35/37 2door) but the VQ35DE doesn't have that thrill. And taking it and throwing twin turbos on it, makes it thrilling, but there's just something about a straight 6 that makes my heart skip a beat. Hence my love of the Germans and the E46 M3, but that's another side tangent for another day.

all the best teahole

What were we talking about again?

[deadlykitten]

I don't bet on any operator doing anything. Ever. My idea of safety checks include verifying the coolant is on.

i understand, and i don't go like this all the time; i believe that ideas about this issue are between these 2 limits :
......1) this is the operator, thank god he come to work, let it work how he can, because cnc spins without him; hope this time he won't forget to push green button
......2) jesus is operating

i go with (1) on stable setups, easy parts, and i use unqualified opeartors, like young girls
i go with (2) on unstable setups : here i use veterans ...

i have attached parts crafting chart, for 3 days, each with 2 shifts : yellow is veteran ; blue is newbie

difference is huge, and so i will take actions to raise newbies productivity ... so i bet on operators , but also do my best to raise their odds, only when necessary

PS : if someone has an idea how to auto-generate this charts from cnc is more than welcomed

[deadlykitten]

you can also number search or scroll to a point in the program that you want to restart at and then press INTERLOCK and CYCLE START at the same time to begin from that point

i asked myself many times why is there such a restart method ? i think that it is there so to reduce restart duration when you are sure what you do

otherwise, you can see how life goes by, while the "normal restart sequence" goes through the program, through each code line

however, meanwhile i worked on this, and i can say that :
... i use VRSTT in such a way that "normal restart sequence" jumps over operations, but not over critical points
... so i can "restart normally" almost as fast as "INTERLOCK+CYCLE START", and still being safe no more life waste

... however, "INTERLOCK+CYCLE START" rocks

---

Okuma may optimize the "normal restart sequence", so to make it perform considerably faster, but this involves much more than salting a program with VRSTT