[mussersail]

Just completed building my machine about a month ago and it's been operational since then. I've been mostly making smaller things in CUT2d to get a feel for the machine and programing and have been happy with the overall results until tonight. I designed a computer cabinet for the machined computer in Cut2d with multiple parts on two sheets of plywood. Most of the parts were rectangular. Cut went smooth but when I started to assemble the cabinet I noticed that a few of the pieces were not perfectly square. They were actually parallelograms - only slightly but enough to bother my cabinetmaking sensibilities. The diagonals were off about 1-1.5mm - the sides were consistent . The strange thing is that I cut essentially four of the same part but two were perfect and the other two slightly off - See photo - the two with the post it notes are the ones out of square but the two adjoining them were perfect. I spent a lot of time dialing things in and went back and checked all the rails and I have a consistent distance between. Is something racking the y-axis, but if so, wouldn't everything be off? When I was positioning the copies in Cut2d did the drawings get racked? I went back and checked and reading good 90 degree angles and consistent measurements. I was about to fire up Mosziak to build cabinets but now I'm a little nervous until I get this worked out.

On a side note - totally bummed when I came on here and found out the Pro has been redesigned - wasn't a pleasant struggle with the v-con - new system looks much easier. I wish there had been some announcement further in advance as I would have held off a few months on my purchase.

Thanks,

Jim

[Kosh]

Do you have the proximity sensors kit? That's the best way to make sure it stays square .

[mussersail]

Yes, I have the proximity sensors purchased from CNC Router Parts. They are installed and I believe working properly, but should I be adjusting them?

[ger21]

Did the parts that are out of square get cut last?

[ericclinedinst]

On a side note - totally bummed when I came on here and found out the Pro has been redesigned - wasn't a pleasant struggle with the v-con - new system looks much easier. I wish there had been some announcement further in advance as I would have held off a few months on my purchase.

Thanks,

Jim

I don't mind that part as much as the fact that new customer orders are taking precedence over existing customers that want to retrofit....

[Rob77]

Just completed building my machine about a month ago and it's been operational since then. I've been mostly making smaller things in CUT2d to get a feel for the machine and programing and have been happy with the overall results until tonight. I designed a computer cabinet for the machined computer in Cut2d with multiple parts on two sheets of plywood. Most of the parts were rectangular. Cut went smooth but when I started to assemble the cabinet I noticed that a few of the pieces were not perfectly square. They were actually parallelograms - only slightly but enough to bother my cabinetmaking sensibilities. The diagonals were off about 1-1.5mm - the sides were consistent . The strange thing is that I cut essentially four of the same part but two were perfect and the other two slightly off - See photo - the two with the post it notes are the ones out of square but the two adjoining them were perfect. I spent a lot of time dialing things in and went back and checked all the rails and I have a consistent distance between. Is something racking the y-axis, but if so, wouldn't everything be off? When I was positioning the copies in Cut2d did the drawings get racked? I went back and checked and reading good 90 degree angles and consistent measurements. I was about to fire up Mosziak to build cabinets but now I'm a little nervous until I get this worked out.

On a side note - totally bummed when I came on here and found out the Pro has been redesigned - wasn't a pleasant struggle with the v-con - new system looks much easier. I wish there had been some announcement further in advance as I would have held off a few months on my purchase.

Thanks,

Jim

Did you get this resolved?

I'd like to hear from the guys at CNCRP and their thoughts on it.

I should begin my build this weekend.

Rob

[Kosh]

Yes, I have the proximity sensors purchased from CNC Router Parts. They are installed and I believe working properly, but should I be adjusting them?

Yes! You make a test (square) cut (the larger the bigger), measure the diagonals, and then adjust one of the X axis sensors until you get a square cut.

If you make it small enough for a digital caliper to fit across the diagonal (use a downcut bit for clean edges), then you could theoretically do it in just two cuts using some good old high school trig and
determining the TPI on the sensor so you know exactly how far to rotate it for a given linear dimension change.

[Jon.N.CNC]

I found the best way is do use the 345 triangle rule as big as you can get within your machine travel. A small error in your triangle is decreased to even smaller error when cutting smaller parts than the triangle. have the machine make marks on a spoil board for each corner, you have dimensions in x and y as you have already told the machine to travel between those points. (Motor tuning needs to correct obviously) so you just need to measure the diagonal and apply the rule to see how close you are to a right angle. Once you have done this you can then cut test squares, not much point unless you do this first imo.

Being as you have some that were okay it sounds like you have a rigidity issue. Does it get better if you use new bits and worse when they dull?

[mussersail]

UPDATE ON SQUARENESS ISSUE - I did get a call from Cory at CNCRP the following day of my post. He thinks it's an issue with the gantry v-con track - possibly uneven rail and suggested shimming or additional v-con clamps. He also mentioned possibility of upgrading to new rail system on gantry. I'd shimmed the rails when I built, spending a good amount of time getting things parallel and I couldn't find a straightness issue when I checked again. It makes sense that it would be that since the squareness issue was only occurring in a specific y-range. While I was checking everything on the gantry out I did find what I think is the culprit - The lower rail v-con tensioner was slightly loose and if I to the whole z assembly I could get it to rock slightly - not much - but might have been my millimeter. I either forgot to perform a secondary tightening on these or I think I might have had an issue with wear the bolt seated on the v-con bearing holder. One bolt was closer to center so I suspect that might have slipped downward causing things to loosen up a bit. It doesn't totally explain why it would selectively occur other than something to do with torque or moment arm or motor position, or maybe there is a dip in the steel rail and the loose v-con was only affected there, and full disclaimer, I haven't tested it yet, but I'm optimistic.

I just receive my Mozaik post-processor file from Mozaik and was going to check with a test frameless cabinet cut, however, that went south. The post processor they sent me told my Pro4896 to do rapids at -1.5" z. Yep negative. Not good. Frustrated, I did what they said not to - go into the post processor file and edit it. There was a z factor variable that was -1 I changed that to just 1 and the machined did rapids at 1.5"z like it was supposed to. Then we had another problem - the program is disregarding the cut settings that I changed and wants to cut with a single pass and higher rate. I'd tweaked both down quite a bit since I'm still using a router and haven't upgraded to a spindle yet (have the dough just easier to replace a router due to learning screw ups - when I'm competent I will switch) The pocket cuts and drill moves were successful in melamine but a little fast and scary. The 32mm system holes are 5mm and about 3/8" deep and the dados notches only 1/4" , the 20mm blind fastener pockets are deep and that was not a nice noise, but clean cut. The profile cut out, well not good, the machine tried to hog out the full 3/4" at a speed of 400-500 not pretty. I've tried everything to produce the proper g-code from Mozaik for a stepped cut but to no avail. I'll have to try a phone session with them. You get two hours for free and then after that it's $75 and hour. Fortunately for us, CNCRP doesn't have a similar policy.

Quick question - with this single cut - is it possible to do this with my machine - with say a 3/8" compression bit, if I was able to slow the cut speed down a bit? With a router? or Spindle only? I'm not opposed to a single pass but don't want to stress anything. There was a certain pleasure in seeing all the pockets on a full sheet of melamine cut in 7 minutess

Jim

[mussersail]

UPDATE TO THE UPDATE - I figured out the Mozaik issue - as with most of my problems, its usually something I missed. I was setting all the variables for a 1/4" compression tooling but the program was selecting a 1/4" downshear - just missed the little detail, so was updating setting of wrong tool. With that problem solved I went back at my butchered up sheet of melamine (why not at this point) and the cutting worked well, maybe still a little fast but stepped cuts. Of course I managed to step on the power cord and unplug the CNC controller halfway through the cut but managed to get some parts out of it. Fine I didn't finish as these parts were way out of square. My guess is from all the harsh treatment getting the CNC to work properly with this software, the gantry was forced out of perpendicular. I sent the cnc to the machine home coordinates and I noticed that the x axis stopped moving but there was another half of a second or so of movement on the slave motor and a little delayed thump on that side as I assume the gantry realigned itself. I quickly drew some squares/rectangles in cut2d and ran a test and the squareness was good. I think I might be missing some basic info here so here are my thoughts/questions on this topic and all and any help would be appreciated:

1. If I make a mistake on a tool path or forget to zero something and I get a harsh cut - i.e. a quick plunge - cutting too much material too deep too fast (like I was) I assume the gantry will skip on one side or there other and rack out of perpendicular to the x axis. Is this just something that will happen? or is there something wrong with my gantry that I need to adjust? As I said have just noticed this and have cut a fair number of objects so far.

2. Machine zero vs material zero (not sure of term for second) - If seems when I home the machine to the proximity sensors all is right with the world. Should I just make this practice everytime I load a sheet of material? My machine zero is a few inches beyond the x and y zero I usually use for my material. Should I somehow be using the machine zero for cuts? To start on the material it looks like I would have to extend the proximity sensors out past the bumpers which I assume is a bad thing? Or just go to machine home to square gantry and then switch to my material zero to start cut? Hope this all makes sense?

Thanks,

Jim

[LeeWay]

We do rehome the router and our plasma cutter between sheets. Just good practice in case anything unnoticable happened in the last sheet or you bump the gantry during the loading. Just good practice and keeps any error from carrying over to the new sheet.
You always start out square.

[mactec54]

mussersail

You posted that the Z axes did a -Z1.5 negative Rapid move, what way on your machine did the Z axes move up or down

If it moved down then that is correct, if you changed it so that a positive move is down that is incorrect, all machines Z axes moves up is Positive, Negative move is down, so when you home your Z Axes going up is moving in a Positive direction

[mussersail]

Mactec - the Z axis moved down on the negative z1.5 rapid move. I zero my z on the top of my workpiece and any negative z movement is cutting into board so I think I'm set up right. The rapid move I would assume should be at the 1.5" above my work piece - i.e. positive 1.5 Z but the way Mozaik set up the post processor, my tool wanted to move between cuts at a negative 1.5" which caused it to try to bore through the workpiece and the spoil board at once - didn't go well. I changed the one factor or variable and now the machine rapids between cuts above the board as it should. This was for sure a localized problem with the Mozaik post processor as I've had no similar issues while running Vetric software. I'm not sure what exactly I changed in the Mozaik post processor but it was the only negative in front of a z number and it solved the problem Thanks Jim

[IamElvis]

I remember having to change a z axis setting in my post processor as well. I questioned the rationale of the z axis setting... if i was peck drilling shelf pin, the machine was starting the peck from the full bore depth then working it's way up. Basically every move of the z axis was reversed. I thought maybe these sort of problems was for the benefit of mozaik bankrolling their support plans. Their default cutting speeds and depths are crazy too. I can only dream of a machine that can cut 3/4" melamine at 400 ipm with a 1/4" compression in 1 pass.

[mactec54]

Mactec - the Z axis moved down on the negative z1.5 rapid move. I zero my z on the top of my workpiece and any negative z movement is cutting into board so I think I'm set up right. The rapid move I would assume should be at the 1.5" above my work piece - i.e. positive 1.5 Z but the way Mozaik set up the post processor, my tool wanted to move between cuts at a negative 1.5" which caused it to try to bore through the workpiece and the spoil board at once - didn't go well. I changed the one factor or variable and now the machine rapids between cuts above the board as it should. This was for sure a localized problem with the Mozaik post processor as I've had no similar issues while running Vetric software. I'm not sure what exactly I changed in the Mozaik post processor but it was the only negative in front of a z number and it solved the problem Thanks Jim

Just did not know exactly what was happening, yes you have it correct

Your machine Home and work X0 Y0 are different, you must always have a work Zero, so when you draw your parts, you set up a work Zero, this is called a G54 through G57, in your program and will be in the work offset page in your control

[mussersail]

Thanks Mactec - I'd never visited the offset page - still learning Mach 3. I'd figured there was a feature. So I can define G54-57 for different set ups I assume? I'd been jogging the machine every time I loaded a sheet and zeroing x and y.

[mussersail]

An Update on Machine Issues - The squareness issue looks like it was a combination of proximity sensor adjustment and making sure to go to machine zero each time I load a sheet. I tweaked the slave x sensor just slightly and that got me nice and square and I've been religiously re-zeroing machine and everything is going well. I can't say the same for the software. I've been trying to squeeze in the video tutorials when I can and it is helping and I usually don't make mistakes twice so I'd say I'm getting better and faster everyday, but it seems like I have a minor issue due to me missing something almost every cut. I'm going for zero-error, or as close as I can get. I haven't had time to get back to Mozaik but I believe since I've resolved the cutting speed and depth issues that it should work well. Plus Mozaik takes the math out of my hands, where v-carve really doesn't. The only component of Mozaik that will take some learning is their use of Sketch up for rendering. I need to be able to draw odd shaped walls, soffits, etc, to make full use of its potential, so that is on the list to work on.

I recently upgraded from Cut2d to V-Carve so there is a whole bunch of new things for me to learn with that. As I think I've said, I'm using this in a commercial application so there is a need to get things up and running, and more importantly, making money quick. Unfortunately, some of the more recent projects have been challenging. Both involved Cut2d/V-carve.

The one project was for a high-end designer we do a lot of work for. She needed a built-in with a door to enclose a heat pump/air conditioner so it needed to be a swiss cheese type design. She drew three versions in CAD that matched a wallpaper design being used in the room. It was my first experience loading a DWG file into Cut2d and then generating tool paths. We went back and forth multiple times - Cut2d crashed a few times and then we got the file size down to just the door and not the 30 other layers in the room. I tried to convert from a screen shot bit-map of it, which was a mess. Finally the light-bulb turned on in my brain and I realized the doors were drawn vertically in the z-axis, hence the multiple files with just "a line" in them. I had them draw the door "on the floor" and all was well. Things went seamlessly from then on, with the exception of one version having cut outs just smaller than the 1/8" diameter bit I used to cut out. Attached is a photo of one of the doors.

The other project were exterior arched/straight beams to be made out of Azek (cellular PVC - we use a brand called Kleer, but same stuff) The beams were overall 18" high, 3" thick, and 14' long. I was able to get sheets of 1" Kleer in a mind blowing size of 4'x20'. They ran about $500 a sheet if you were wondering. The idea was to laminate the beams out of 3 pieces of this material with a pocket cut in the center piece for 1"x3" aluminum rectangular tubing for rigidity. Now the trick was to cut 14' pieces on a 4x8 machine. Because of how I set up my machine against a wall I realize too late that I can't use the V-Carve Tile feature with the x-pass thru option. This would have probably made things easier. As it was I had to draw exactly half of the beam, cut it, and then flip and spin around the 200 lb piece of PVC and reinsert it into machine and cut the other half, hoping the lines would meet.... Well it worked. Only minor problem was it seems the new Hitachi M12 router is already crapping out on me. Having problems with it not starting when the g-code tells it to. It has been sort of working if I remember to brush the vents on the top of the router and hit it a few times with the hard end of the brush between changing sheets. I have been using this machine a lot - maybe continual running 30-40 hours total, so I guess its possible that is the machine life, if you figure the typical homeowner might use it for maybe a total of 1-5 hours a year. It also could have been the craziness with the initial Moziak 450 fpm and 3/4" cut depth debacle. We ran out to Lowes and grabbed a spare just incase, but a spindle from CNCRP will be ordered next week. Attached are the photos....

[mussersail]

Forgot photos - Attachment 324198