[Trillion]

Hello all, I wasn't too sure exactly where to post this so apologies if this is the wrong place. I am a complete beginner to CNC machines (though I do have extensive experience with vinyl plotters and their software), and am looking for an affordable machine that will accurately cut aluminium and possibly harder materials like steel. I have a project in mind (a robot wars style robot!) and would love to design and build the robot all by myself. I have attached a picture of the kind of components I would like to be able to make (minus the pneumatic piston pictured!). I absolutely do not mind buying an old or used (or both) machine as long as it fits the bill. Does anyone have any recommendations?


Thanks,
Michael

[awerby]

How big are the parts you want to make? That's the primary determinant of the mill you're going to need, bearing in mind that as the parts get bigger arithmetically, the price of the machine goes up geometrically.

[dharmic]

Yep, or it becomes a game of how to do a piece in stages, reclamping each time and working out offsets and making sure the thing can overhang the machine you're using.

By needing to go to steel, you're pretty much out of the cheap router side of things and into "proper milling machines".

Have you got somewhere to run it with compressed air, good power, ventilation etc? You might get away with something like a SIEG X3 CNC, but you may well find you can lay hands on an old Bridgeport for much the same price if you have somewhere to put it.

[Trillion]

Thanks for the replies chaps. With regards to the size of parts I would like to make, I would imagine no bigger than 50CM on the X and Y axis, and no more than 20CM on the Z axis. Would making my own machine be a viable option considering I am a beginner to this, or is that very tricky?

In terms of somewhere to run it, I have my garage and two standard 25 litre air compressors - would this be adequate?

[dharmic]

Well that takes you right out of the cheap routers and hobby size mills. Particularly on the Y axis, 50cm is pretty large. And a 20cm working height means what, a 30-40cm or so spindle height to allow room for the collet and tool to the workpiece? And steel, too.

You're now in the realms of the 2+ tonnes three phase machines.

[handlewanker]

Wow/.....a 500mm Y axis mill.......that's a biggie, as in a Bridgeport....it weighs 1 1/2 tons and is the size of a Minnie (car).

I think you need to look at a decent router for that size part...forget about steel.....a mill to cover that area will cost a bomb.

What is your maximum budget.......taking into account that the mill is X amount and the peripherals to run it are X times 2 amount.

I think if you are planning on building a robot war machine, with the 'bot about the size of a dinner plate.....an X3 would fir your bill.......but you'll still be out in the region of 2 to 3 grand (A dollars).
Ian.

[Trillion]

50CM was a rough guess and probably a poor one too, I am diving in to the deep end here! I am sure I can work around a lot of stuff. What size would a smaller machine like an X3 be able to work with?

In terms of budget, I would say ideally no more than £1500 (2000 USD) but if necessary I could save some money up and get a different machine. What do you guys think about the Syil machines? I've seen a few of them on Ebay.

Another thing I have noticed a lot is the Chinese 6040 CNC - how do these compare with the big branded stuff? Would a larger CNC router be more attuned to my needs?

[Tkamsker]

Hi Even if i Would like to sell a machine Maybe best is to Start at a mskerspace Start to draw and Design the Parts do You the learn what You really Need your Hobby is much more in Electronic and designing than Milling wie Could do You also some Parts Then You See and can so better decisions thomas


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[Trillion]

Hi Thomas, that's very kind of you. I am really interested in diving in at the deep end though and learning it all, I have friends who are electrical engineers so I'll have some help there, but I would like to also learn the machining/metalworking process too. I really enjoy making things!

[awerby]

You can probably get an old manual knee mill for what you want to spend, but it would cost that much again to retrofit it for CNC. Or you could scale down your part envelope considerably, and get a new mill like an X1: 商品展示 and put together a control system for it (the X3 is bigger but the manual version costs about what you say you want to spend for a CNC). Don't get a router, though, if what you mainly want to do is metal work. Those are okay for wood, but for metal you need a mill.

[Trillion]

Andrew, thanks for your reply again. I wasn't even aware you could retrofit mills for CNC, so that's interesting. I have noticed that SIEG and Syil both share the same product names, and the machines look identical. Are they the same company? In terms of quality of cut, what kind of grade could I expect with an X3 CNC version for example? The more I look into it, the more interested I am in the X3. (edit typo - X4 - expensive though!!)

edit* I forgot to mention that I was watching a video last night, and was curious if the X3 would be able to manufacture something to the same standard: https://youtu.be/jf4qbG6myE4?t=16m17s

Would that be likely?

[Tkamsker]

Hi
not an issue i guess that you intend to do similar like https://www.lxrobotics.com/about
or more precise https://www.lxrobotics.com/tag/steroid
And i personally like this tool https://www.lxrobotics.com/wp-conten...-Valkiri-3.jpg
so in my opinion it will take some time till you get all the parts together you need and when i follow the blog of Steroid
you will notice that they have come verry far without touching steel they call it armor
i personally think that it is for sure fun to destroy that things and it is all about creativity to win then you will start with non metal systems but when you want to win you need metal (and hard metal ) systems

if there is an CAD drawing we can do parts you can not do at home and you are somehow still in eu so transport should be easy
i would suggest make a build log ( maybe here at the forum ) and go the whole way and when it comes to metal parts i guess they can be done.
so have fun thomas

[handlewanker]

Hi Trill....engineering is a costly business unless you just want to wet your big toe in the waters etc........your expectations are only as wide as the depth of your purse.

I would advise researching the market for kits to retrofit an X3 to CNC capability.

There are other mills out there that can also be CNC'ed as many have already done.......see on UTUBE for various builds that work even if not 100%, but are still good projects......the longest journey starts with the first step.....you could get lucky and buy a second hand pre-loved CNC retrofit that someone is moving on from.

If you completely have no hands on skill with using a mill, then buying a mill and using it in manual mode for a while will get you to the start line..........going retrofit CNC comes next once you understand what is needed and what can be removed etc.....meanwhile looking at the pics that people post and saving them for later deep study etc.

Buying a new machine means it's only worth 1/2 it's face value once it's left the showroom.......buying second hand means it's worth 100% and can be resold for practically that too.
Ian.

[dharmic]

Some things to bear in mind...

1. Your spending doesn't stop at the machine. You'll need dust extraction for wood, lubrication for metal. You'll need compressed air to clean down and, for some machines, to operate things like toolchangers. You'll need tooling. You'll need an enclosure to stop crap going everywhere and things trying to kill you if something goes wrong. You'll need more tooling. You'll need workholding stuff like a decent vice, clamps and so on. For CNC vs manual you will likely need a computer to drive the machine from. And you'll need CAD/CAM software which can cost anywhere from crappy freeware to multiple tens of thousands of dollars for the high end stuff. The list goes on. I know my $4000 machine ended up costing closer to $6000 by the time I got it useable, and I already had a lot of it from a manual mill and lathe etc in the shed, a spare computer laying about and software licenses from work.

2. You're up for a HUGE learning curve. There's the whole "working with metal" side of it - feeds, speeds, what you can get away with for particular tool and work material combinations and all that stuff. A manual mill will help you get that under your belt first but it isn't stuff that comes quickly. Then there's the whole "design something in CAD" thing. Then there's the whole "design something in CAD that's actually manufacturable with the tooling and machinery and number of dimensions you have available" thing. Then there's the "Oh goody, I have a shape, now I need to tell the machine how to cut it" CAM learning curve. Then there's the whole sisyphean process of taking your CAM generated g-code, running it on the machine, watching it go wrong and snap tooling and plough through your workpiece, usually in the last few minutes of a six hour job, going back to the CAM and working out how to make it play nice, taking your newly generated g-code, runn...

It's all fascinating, all great fun - and frustration, money and pain as you make mistakes - but it's expensive and it's time consuming.

If that's where you want to go, great, but be warned straight up: this is not the road to head down if you want parts made on the cheap for a project you want finished any time in the next year or two.

Steel means a milling machine. If the SX-2 or SX-3 fit your dimension requirements they (or the G0704 or the Optimums or any of that style) are a good starting point and there are kits all over the place for retrofitting them for CNC. Don't know about the Syil or the SX3 - a mate of mine was selling his SX3 and it looked ok other than being too small for what I wanted, and the Syil looked ok just expensive for what it was.

I'm running a router (OmioCNC 6040 style) at the moment and it's ok with aluminium if I'm not too fussy about accuracy. Next step will likely be a secondhand knee mill for a CNC conversion. But I'm not there yet.

[RCaffin]

Your spending doesn't stop
dharmic is un-necessarily verbose. The above is sufficient

If you can program a computer, you may not need CAD/CAM. I bypass all that and write my own g-code. It all depends...

Cheers
Roger

[dharmic]

$$$

Bloody rcaffin, 2manywerdz..

(nuts)

[RCaffin]

:bat:
:cheers:

[Trillion]

Thanks everyone for your replies!

Andrew, thanks very much - if I decide to not take this route of buying my own machine immediately, I will hit you up!

Ian, thanks for your tips, I will look into the X3 and how people have retrofitted it for CNC. I have had a look on Ebay for used models, but I haven't seen anything at half the cost of the Syil X4 yet, and I can't seem to find any X3s there, but I will watch the used section here closely.

dharmic, that does sound a bit scary, but I don't expect to get off the ground immediately, so I think my head is in the right place.. I hope! I imagine once it's all up and running and you have a grasp for it, the machining process is much easier?

Does anyone have experience with the PCNC machine featured in the video I linked? I'm very impressed with the quality of the finished part that was manufactured, but I'm not sure about its availability in the UK.

Roger - thank you, but I don't think I'll be writing my own code any time soon haha!

[Tkamsker]

Which Link ?


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[RCaffin]

Hi Trillion

In all seriousness, learning to write simple g-code is both very easy and extremely useful. It let's you do 'little' jobs quickly. Of course, if you are running Mach, there are built-in wizards which can do a lot of this for you. Simple GUI front end.

Cheers
Roger