[skubajon]

Well I just received a keyless drill chuck and thought maybe I could use on my machine.

I have a 24k rpm 2.2kw spindle with the er20 collets. My question is will this chuck work. It has a straight shank but the chuck and the arbor or shaft fit together with a taper. There are zero bolts or anything. Will this hold together on high speed for drilling or should I find a drill chuck that bolts to the shaft?

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[awerby]

It should hold together; chucks are usually mounted that way. You'd hold that straight shank in a collet of the right size, and use it like any other tool. But at 24k rpm, this would only be useful for very small drill bits. Larger ones will want to spin slower, but with more torque.

[skubajon]

OK awesome. That was my thought. Figured if not, I could use on my tailstock for my lathe using different shank.

So what's best way to mount shaft chuck? I threw the shaft in the freeze on my way to work in case that worked best lol

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[pippin88]

Would not recommend. Just put the drills directly in the spindle using the ER collets.

[dharmic]

If it's only for drilling you'll mostly get away with it. Don't attempt to mill (ie travel X/Y with the bit engaged into the work) with it or you'll discover why drill presses are different to mills as the whole lot gets pulled out. And, despite their convenience, bear in mind drill chucks suck at concentricity. If rough-enough is good enough no probs but if you want precision, use the collet.

Curious as to why you're headed down this road. The thought of quicker bit changes? Or don't want the hassle and cost of having 87 different collets for different size bits? FWIW after a bit of practice and setting up two dedicated spanners, my collet changes are now not that much slower than using a chuck. And the set of fairly acceptable collets for my ER-20 spindle on fleaBay cost about thirty Australian pesos (ie about twenty bucks) out of China. If your router is anything like mine it lacks a lot of Z travel and clearance, too - bear in mind that now you're about to reduce that further by the length of your drill assembly.

[Superman]

Other negative points...

when spindle Starts / Stops the inertia is enough to loosen the chuck....drops the tool....always use a "C' spanner to tighten
- if it opens easily on spindle start, it can wind to maximum opening & jamb itself...... toss it out

May not grip small drills.....check minimum clamping size, probably about a 1/16"

[skubajon]

Yeah was mainly because some of the drills I had that work awesome have the 6 sided or chevron type shaft vs jobber drills. Wasn't wanting to use for much more than just that and drilling. It was a freebie I had so thought I would see.

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[handlewanker]

Hi, I bought a number of 0 - 6mm keyed drill chucks on EBAY, purely to offset the need to have a number of collet sets for drilling.

Changing small drills in an ER system is a pain, whereas if you have a small keyed drill chuck (keyless are more expensive) and a parallel shank you only have to use one collet and only need to loosen it to change over chucks already mounted with drills.......the chucks also cost little and the ones I have run quite true despite what some say.

As far as the Z height loss is concerned, using them for small drills up to 6mm means the chuck body only uses approx. 20mm of Z height and the drills are short anyway.

The ones I bought have a UNF threaded body, so fitting a screwed shank and Loctiting it in will solve any fall out problems.

I think the chucks will hold .5mm drills as the jaws are quite pointy so will close right down.

BTW....when a spindle is powered down from 24,000 rpm or so, there is very little inertia to worry about as it's not being braked to bring it to a stop, so no sudden torque re-action occurs to unscrew a chuck.
Ian.

[wizard]

The very first thing you need to do is to check max RPM for that specific chuck. If your spindle can exceed that speed I wouldn't use the chuck in the machine. Beyond that drill chucks only really work for drilling.

The simple question here this, why not use ER collets since the spindle already supports such.

[underthetire]

And at 24k, you better hope that chuck is balanced! This just sounds like a bad idea.

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[handlewanker]

Hi....has anyone ever had a thought that if you drill at 24.000 rpm you won't have much drill left?

A 3 mm drill in HSS only needs to go at 2,400 rpm and if you're drilling with anything smaller you'll probably be using an ER11 chuck and collet or whatever you can get that's small and will hold anything small.

I think the keyed or keyless drill chucks are good if you just want to drill small holes around the 2 to 3mm size....anything smaller and the "expected" run out would be exponential to their capacity.

I doubt anyone would want to hold a 1mm drill in a keyed or keyless chuck and expect it to run dead true.....there would probably be a 3mm shank to enable it to be held......anything smaller than 1mm is practically watch making work.

BTW....there are a number of small collet chucks, up to 4mm diam size, that you can buy on EBAY, and although they are mainly designed to be used in the hand for holding small drills for cleaning out operations, with a bit of modification and collet re-work they also make good machine drill chucks.

Many years ago I needed to drill some 2 mm holes and the chucks available were of the 13mm vintage variety, so I resorted to making an adjustable chuck mounting shank.

Basically all it consisted of was a Morse taper shank with a disc on the end and a small keyed drill chuck also mounted on a disc.....the two discs were held together by cap screws.....slackening off the screws and moving the drill chuck disc allowed the run out to be eliminated 100%.

I'm going to make some more with 20mm shanks, as they're so simple to make, for the half dozen keyed 6mm drill chucks I bought recently as I know that they will....most probably.... run out a bit.
Ian.

[RCaffin]

Most of the time I agree with the idea of using collets instead of a drill chuck. But there are times when drilling ...

One of the most common uses I have for a little 0-3mm keyed chuck in the mill is getting a 1 mm stub drill bit TO the job. Often the ER25 collet is just too big to fit into the available space, given that the 1 mm stub drill is sticking out only 10 mm.

I use several of these little chucks. Two of them are eBay specials (0-3 mm, 0-5 mm) with arbors I made myself. With a lot of care and finding the right angles for the tapers, the TIR seems to be under about 40 microns. How long will they last? I don't know. The other two chucks are German Albrecht chucks with their own arbors. You can get them on eBay for about $100. Not cheap, but very nice toys.

I have also tried using Eclipse pin vises, but they are nowhere nearly as good. Lots of TIR, and they can slip. Hand work only imho.

Cheers
Roger

[ger21]

And at 24k, you better hope that chuck is balanced! This just sounds like a bad idea.

Yes, using any kind of drill chuck in a router is a bad idea. You'll know pretty quickly if it's balanced are not. If not, just hope it doesn't come flying off the taper and hit you.

[dharmic]

Most of the time I agree with the idea of using collets instead of a drill chuck. But there are times when drilling ...

One of the most common uses I have for a little 0-3mm keyed chuck in the mill is getting a 1 mm stub drill bit TO the job. Often the ER25 collet is just too big to fit into the available space, given that the 1 mm stub drill is sticking out only 10 mm.

I use several of these little chucks. Two of them are eBay specials (0-3 mm, 0-5 mm) with arbors I made myself. With a lot of care and finding the right angles for the tapers, the TIR seems to be under about 40 microns. How long will they last? I don't know. The other two chucks are German Albrecht chucks with their own arbors. You can get them on eBay for about $100. Not cheap, but very nice toys.

I have also tried using Eclipse pin vises, but they are nowhere nearly as good. Lots of TIR, and they can slip. Hand work only imho.

Cheers
Roger

Good stinking, that man.

Nice way to make a short bit longer. Thanks Roger, that may come in handy one day.

[RCaffin]

Nothing like trying to centre into a job a 1 mm drill sticking 30 mm out of a collet!
Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

Hi....one reason to spot the hole before drilling so small.....I don't think I've ever not spotted many holes before drilling....probable a few were relying on the centre punch being deep enough.....too many run offs otherwise.

Back in the dim and distant past, when driilling a commercial job, the holes were marked off for the diam and centre punched with 4 dimples around the periphery........the purpose of which was to indicate if the hole was on position by having half dimples left around the edge when the hole was drilled......drifting a hole back on position was another job.

I think too many people think a drill chuck running out a few thou is going to make the drill go out of position.......if the program placed the drill on the spot previously spotted, and the drill is ground with the lips of equal length true to the centre etc, it will run true.

For drills under 3mm diam I have a Wishbone type hand drill sharpener I made that can sharpen drills down to .5mm.....it's more of a hand honing device than a grinding one as it's used on a diamond lap.

A bit off topic, but relevant anyway.........I just scored a CUTTERMASTER tool & cutter grinder with the air bearing spindle and a radius attachment too on EBAY........so now I'm going to regrind some drills on their flutes to make end mills with them......it's still HSS they're made from so the regrind will just change the configuration from drilling to milling......that's another iron in the fire....LOL.
Ian.

[RCaffin]

Hi Ian

One problem I have had, even with larger and new drill bits, is that some of them are curved. Seriously. The Australian P&N and Sutton are especially prone to this. Poor heat treatment maybe, or poor steel, or ??? Hold them up to the light against a good straight edge and see. I now buy only Dormer, and a lot of their stub drills.

Once the tip starts flailing around it can be very hard to know where the hole is going to be. You either get a bell-mouthed hole or a broken drill bit. Not good.

Cuttermaster ... sigh. If I might ask, how much did you have to pay?

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

Hi Rog.......hold onto your hat....$2,600....came with the steel cabinet and the radius attachment with a swag of 5C collets......there go the family jewels to the pawn shop again.

It's not one of those things you really must have, more of a want thing........ but over the years I've drooled over the adds on the USA sites and always wanted to be able to do cutter grinding for the thrill of it apart from re-furbishing anything that I need.

I have a project that I want to pursue .....reclaiming old worn taps and grinding them on the OD of the flute to make roughing end mills....they already have the teeth for the staggered cutting action, just need to put the primary and secondary clearance angle on.

Strange that P&N and shock horror SUTTONS????.... have bent drill problems.....I would have thought their QC would have picked upon that before sales.

One thing I found with drills, even machine ground ones, is if you reduce the point clearance angle slightly, and thin the web too, you can get a better round hole.....it does take a bit more pressure to drill the hole but it's round.

BTW....have you ever stripped a keyed chuck down and reground the jaws to make them run true?
Ian.

[RCaffin]

$2600?
Oh. Dear.

I made my own 6 axis T&C grinder. Diamond and CBN wheels. It spins a bit slowly right now, but it works fine. It is just a bit of a pain to set it up for drill bits. I am collecting chipped cutters etc, and one day I will have to have an orgy of grinding. With pencil & paper and calculator handy!

Bent drills - yeah, I was disgusted too. Both brands are sharp, that's for sure, but the tips wobble. Very sad. Unsafe on the CNC imho.

But then, I did once buy some Chinese drill bits. SOME of them had been ground off-centre. The holes came out oversize by about 0.2 - 0.3 mm, except at the bottom where the tip broke through and no longer controlled the rotation. So for the last 1 mm of depth, the diameter was correct. They have gone in the woodwork drawer. I suppose they could be reground too.

I did collect someone's extensive screed on regrinding chuck jaws, and I have one (13 mm Chinese) chuck which may, one day, get worked over. It did not seem too difficult once you get the outer separate from the inner. But so far I am quite innocent m'lud.
Mind you, right now I cannot find that screed. I wonder where I put it?

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

Hi....yeah, it's an investment for those that come after I've gone.

There was, or is, a "clever" end mill grinding method posted on UTUBE that used a 4th axis with a program to control the helix movement......my cutter grinding skills span 60 years or so, and that was an intermittent exercise in that time..

When I served my apprenticeship in the late 50's I worked on the mills with my Father and one job I learned from him was how to grind end mills......you never want to grind a bum end mill for your old man.....ever.

Mostly it will be a mass session time when I get down to it as the setting up is not a 5 minute job.

Luckily there are a couple of tutorials for the Cuttermaster on UTUBE, so I'll be able to gen up the method for that machine using the air spindle which I've never used before.........the previous methods were with the table movement.

I have to wonder if it's worth the bother to refurbish a keyed chuck as it takes more than an hour to strip one down and re-assemble it to check the results of jaw lapping......mostly I've worked on a jaw that appeared to be off centre, with a diamond hand hone or just wet and dry paper...........takes time but does offset that stripping down part.

I've got a collet from a "Rubberflex" type chuck......this comprises of a number of thin steel blades held together with a rubber compound between them that allows them to expand in a tapered bore like a spring collet.

I've never seen one of these chucks advertised on EBAY, but I believe they're quite accurate and grip well.
Ian..