[Rover31]

HI folks
I am an absolute beginner at this. I am going to be purchasing a cnc router for a small business that I have. We will be routing plastics 3mm-1cm thick.
have looked for several months at all of the options. I think it comes down to these two, but which one?
What I the best bang for the buck? Should I be looking at something else? I did look at the China route but looks like very risky.
Benchtop Standard CNC Machine Kit | CNCRouterParts
and a variation of this with additional metal supports
OX-Metal CNC Router Mill | OpenBuilds

Thanks for any help or thoughts

[Rover31]

add this one that I just stumbled upon

Affordable quality CNC machines - Gryphon CNC

[jckstrthmghty]

How much do you want to tinker? The CNCRouterParts will be easier to get going. A standard build, good documentation, and good support from the vendor. OpenOX is good if you like browsing through forums and figuring it out yourself. I'm not completely sold on the delrin wheels for cnc cutting however there are many who do use them. I used them on my 3dprinter and they work well in that application. If you like openbuilds take a look at the c-beam builds. Sturdy.

Keeping in mind none of these options are turn key.

For a smallish cncrouter the 2x4 pro from cncrouterparts would be my choice.

[Rover31]

Thanks for the tips.
The c-beam is "more rigid" due to thicker side supports over the ox metal? More accurate then?
I should also say I would likely be using a vacuum table. Will that make a difference?
I did have a great conversation with a machinist yesterday. His suggestion for good production and output is to use a 4x4 table. That challenges the "small" machine capability and accuracy!

Thank You

[coherent]

Just to offer another option, take a look at Fineline Automation. They offer machine kits
https://www.finelineautomation.com/t/cnc-machine-kits
and completely built 2x4 or 4x4. machines.
https://www.finelineautomation.com/t...hines/new-node

I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but I just recently bought one of the Saturn models and am impressed with how heavy duty it is and how well it's made. I haven't seen any of the kit machines in person but in the videos they look pretty well made also. I don't know if they are affiliated with CNCrouter parts, but some of the drawings and items listed sure look like the same drawings and/or machines/parts?
On the other hand if you'll feeling industrious and have some mechanical skills you can save money by buying all the parts and pieces yourself and building one.

[Rover31]

hmm those look nice, free shipping and welded table to boot!

more options I like it

What electronics did you go with? You are happy with it?

Thanks!

[coherent]

I used the 4 axis kit from automation technology with 570oz nema 23s. They sell it set up for Nema 34s if you prefer but the 23's seem to have plenty of torque. It's extremely smooth and fast. I fabricated a steel stand out of 3x3 and 2x3 1/8" wall tubing. I got the 4x2 machine and it weighs about 425lbs... the stand about 250lbs more. I have a short thread here with a couple of photos. I'll add more as I progress http://www.cnczone.com/forums/fineli...aturn-4x2.html
My plan is to use this one as a plasma machine. I'm very pleased. I did a lot of hunting, research and phone calls. I couldn't find anything close to the quality and build for the money.

[Rover31]

Excellent info thank you much!
Sooo much to learn!

automation has some very interesting items also

[kukukupo]

As with anything - you can certainly save some money by doing it yourself. The other plus side is - when you run into issues, if you have built it you will likely be able to troubleshoot it.

From a business standpoint, I would assume you want something with a great support structure if you know nothing. Shopbot, Cammaster, Romaxx, etc are some examples of companies that sell CNC machines and have technical support help should you need it. The down side is - they typically sell what they sell and if you find a need for a modification or other add-ons, a company might have some proprietary software/hardware that you are forced to work with.

If you are looking to just route plastics - either machine you mentioned should do fine; but I would go with the CNC router parts machine. It will have a much better support structure and is made from better materials, IMO.

Don't cheap out on the controls - if you find yourself restricted on size/power, you can always move the controls to a bigger machine if you just buy a good set to start out with. You really don't save much money by going smaller on the electronics vs having to upgrade later.

[Rover31]

Had a great chat with a consultant cnc router guy today
He mentioned the shopbot along with Probotix
Lots of things/needs were talked about vacuumed table flood irrigation/water evac
Made my head spin a little... it will come together

Thanks for the comments and suggestions

[Rover31]

Well it looks like it is down to CNCRP vs Probotix since timeline never responded to either an email or voicemail.

So in the CNCRP line the Pro is certainly a better machine but do I need it at $1500 more? Then Probotix is in the middle of those two.
CNCRP is not far I could drive for pick up

I can't decide! I am sure I would be happy with any of them for quite a while.

Any more thoughts?
Thanks!

[A_Camera]

HI folks
I am an absolute beginner at this. I am going to be purchasing a cnc router for a small business that I have. We will be routing plastics 3mm-1cm thick.

...then you should forget about those two below...

have looked for several months at all of the options. I think it comes down to these two, but which one?
What I the best bang for the buck? Should I be looking at something else? I did look at the China route but looks like very risky.
Benchtop Standard CNC Machine Kit | CNCRouterParts
and a variation of this with additional metal supports
OX-Metal CNC Router Mill | OpenBuilds

Thanks for any help or thoughts

Those are for hobby use, beginner type, not for a business. Especially that Ox looks like a toy. None of them have ball screws, which explains why they are cheap. That delrin nut is OK if you just want to learn how to use a CNC, but if you want to use it professionally you will need better things. If you absolutely want to buy from those two then get the CNCRP pro. The ball nut/screw has huge advantages over the acme screw which is in the other model. Though I am ABSOLUTELY no fan of the V-grove rails and have no idea how that Z axis is. Honestly, it looks nice for the eyes but I would not buy their machines, especially if I had the intentions of running a business.

[jckstrthmghty]

...then you should forget about those two below...



Those are for hobby use, beginner type, not for a business. Especially that Ox looks like a toy. None of them have ball screws, which explains why they are cheap. That delrin nut is OK if you just want to learn how to use a CNC, but if you want to use it professionally you will need better things. If you absolutely want to buy from those two then get the CNCRP pro. The ball nut/screw has huge advantages over the acme screw which is in the other model. Though I am ABSOLUTELY no fan of the V-grove rails and have no idea how that Z axis is. Honestly, it looks nice for the eyes but I would not buy their machines, especially if I had the intentions of running a business.

I think the tool has to fit the intended purpose. If I am reading this correctly Rover31 is looking for a starting point for CNC. If his business was to run CNC operations 24/7 365 then I 100% agree that these machines are not adequate however I doubt this is the case given the indication of budget and experience. Should the CNC side of the business take off then additional investment is warranted. During this learning stage I think either the CNCRP or the Probotix would serve the intended purpose well. The OX build was correctly labelled. Hobby machine.

btw if it's small scale production it's much cheaper just to outsource.

[Rover31]

I think the tool has to fit the intended purpose. If I am reading this correctly Rover31 is looking for a starting point for CNC. If his business was to run CNC operations 24/7 365 then I 100% agree that these machines are not adequate however I doubt this is the case given the indication of budget and experience. Should the CNC side of the business take off then additional investment is warranted. During this learning stage I think either the CNCRP or the Probotix would serve the intended purpose well. The OX build was correctly labelled. Hobby machine.

btw if it's small scale production it's much cheaper just to outsource.

This is exactly where I am at. I am a start up hoping to learn and produce a little at the same time.

I am very sold on the Probotix nice looking machine. Shipping to me across the country is spendy but the CNCRP Pro is still more $$s and I will have to assemble. Buuut they, CNCRP, are close (2hr drive) and have great support.

Ahh the decisions when you are are a tight budget and are clueless to boot!

[A_Camera]

I think the tool has to fit the intended purpose. If I am reading this correctly Rover31 is looking for a starting point for CNC. If his business was to run CNC operations 24/7 365 then I 100% agree that these machines are not adequate however I doubt this is the case given the indication of budget and experience. Should the CNC side of the business take off then additional investment is warranted. During this learning stage I think either the CNCRP or the Probotix would serve the intended purpose well. The OX build was correctly labelled. Hobby machine.

All those machines are hobby machines, in fact, in my opinion, even the so called "pro". Better machines are needed even for a part time business. ...and the better machine you have the quicker you learn and better products you make, much easier. So spending a little extra on the "pro" CNCRP is in my opinion worth the investment, though, the rack and pinion drive would make me turn away from that machine. That design is weak even if you won't run it 24/7.

btw if it's small scale production it's much cheaper just to outsource.

That is certainly not as simple as you put it...

I am doing just that, small scale production, so this is my experience.

I started with the same idea, outsourcing initially, but because EVERYONE must earn his share, it is in fact very expensive for small scale production. If the volumes are very high then it is the opposite, it may be cheaper to outsource than buying new, expensive machinery, rent work shop area and employ people.

So after initially outsourcing and making zero profit, I quickly realized this and because of the pretty poor quality, yet fairly expensive CNC machines available in the lower price range, I decided to design build my own. That was the way to go, but if I had to get a machine quickly or was not capable to make one then I'd buy the best I can could afford, even if the price hurts initially. One reason is that there is no point in buying something you already from the start know is not good just because it is cheap. It will only result in a machine which will not be used and you'd need to buy a new one anyway, so the result is that you pay twice. Learning on good machines is easier because you LEARN and not trying to figure out who is doing something wrong, the machine or you.

But of course, if somebody is just making a prototype or some very small series and is never going to use the CNC again then outsourcing is the way to go. However, my philosophy worked out quite well for me... but it does not necessarily true for everyone.

Another reason why I outsourced initially, knowing I will not make money, is that I wanted to test the business idea of my product. It proved better than expected, so for me, there was no question about which is better, outsourcing or making my own parts. I am still doing this small scale, small volume production and it works just fine. If I'd need to make it into a large scale business I'd definitely look for another solution, which would be outsourcing.

[A_Camera]

I am very sold on the Probotix nice looking machine. Shipping to me across the country is spendy but the CNCRP Pro is still more $$s and I will have to assemble. Buuut they, CNCRP, are close (2hr drive) and have great support.

That settles then. Toss a coin between Probix and CNCRP Pro. If you think you will NEED support then CNCRP is definitely the way to go. I would not worry about shipping costs since that is just a one time cost, but I don't like the Probix Z axis and the gantry. That gantry is too big and the rail separation is too little. 3060 extrusion is also a bit too small, but it depends on what you are planning to use it for.

Having to assemble should mean that you trade your time against your wallet. Probix is ready built so you have to pay more for the same quality. CNCRP is a kit, so you probably get better quality and for the same price but you have to spend time before you are up and running.

If CNCRP is just two hours drive from you and you are not certain, why don't you call them and ask to see them for a demo... Maybe if you can see the machine you are interested in you will see if it is for you or not. A video or some pictures is not the same as the impression you get when you actually see it live.

[jckstrthmghty]

All those machines are hobby machines, in fact, in my opinion, even the so called "pro".

I do agree with you. Price point is attractive in these products for the novice/hobbyist which I am. What we don't have is a business plan to determine the best course of action. The numbers do matter if you plan on turning a profit.

That is certainly not as simple as you put it...

I am doing just that, small scale production, so this is my experience.

I started with the same idea, outsourcing initially, but because EVERYONE must earn his share, it is in fact very expensive for small scale production. If the volumes are very high then it is the opposite, it may be cheaper to outsource than buying new, expensive machinery, rent work shop area and employ people.

So after initially outsourcing and making zero profit, I quickly realized this and because of the pretty poor quality, yet fairly expensive CNC machines available in the lower price range, I decided to design build my own. That was the way to go, but if I had to get a machine quickly or was not capable to make one then I'd buy the best I can could afford, even if the price hurts initially. One reason is that there is no point in buying something you already from the start know is not good just because it is cheap. It will only result in a machine which will not be used and you'd need to buy a new one anyway, so the result is that you pay twice. Learning on good machines is easier because you LEARN and not trying to figure out who is doing something wrong, the machine or you.

But of course, if somebody is just making a prototype or some very small series and is never going to use the CNC again then outsourcing is the way to go. However, my philosophy worked out quite well for me... but it does not necessarily true for everyone.

Another reason why I outsourced initially, knowing I will not make money, is that I wanted to test the business idea of my product. It proved better than expected, so for me, there was no question about which is better, outsourcing or making my own parts. I am still doing this small scale, small volume production and it works just fine. If I'd need to make it into a large scale business I'd definitely look for another solution, which would be outsourcing.

Ah, thank you for elaborating and for the education. I shouldn't make blanket statements. What I consider small, medium, or larger scale may be different to others. Better to ask the question, "what do you plan on cutting, the quantity, and time allowed? How do you envision your business to develop and what kind of budget are you working with?"

[DA_Spec]

[QUOTE=A_Camera;2011100]All those machines are hobby machines, in fact, in my opinion, even the so called "pro". Better machines are needed even for a part time business. ...and the better machine you have the quicker you learn and better products you make, much easier. So spending a little extra on the "pro" CNCRP is in my opinion worth the investment, though, the rack and pinion drive would make me turn away from that machine. That design is weak even if you won't run it 24/7.

So why exactly is the rack in pinion system design is weak ?

[Rover31]

If CNCRP is just two hours drive from you and you are not certain, why don't you call them and ask to see them for a demo... Maybe if you can see the machine you are interested in you will see if it is for you or not. A video or some pictures is not the same as the impression you get when you actually see it live.

So right away I want to thank all of you who continue to post and share opinions. I learn tons just with a few comments from all of you with experience. Thanks so much for helping!

I have actually had hands on a local CNCRP and I do like it. Crazy as it sounds I met with the guy who built and set up the machine for the company. He is the one who suggested the Probotix. He thinks for the money it is a great ready to run machine. I am looking to see if there is one nearby I can see working.
Due to the great suggestions by members here I do see the limitations of each unit.
It Is looking more like a CNCRP Pro is going to be in the shop.