[Kipper]

Funny, ain't it, how 9/11 and global warming really are kinda related?

You love those cameras 'on' your house? I can't wait till the UK finally removes the last vestiges of freedom and privacy and puts 'em IN your house! All in the name of security, of course. Just think of how safe you'll be then!!

Heres what you missed out

The day that changed the world eh...2 things changed for me no more IRA bombings as we'd maybe have got the OK on "shoot to kill" and suicide bombers less than 2 miles from my home... I don't blame it on America or Americans in fact I believe they have as little say on these things as I do! Now I'm off to watch Benny's 90 minute film

Why cant you wait?

[Geof]

....You love those cameras 'on' your house? I can't wait till the UK finally removes the last vestiges of freedom and privacy and puts 'em IN your house! All in the name of security, of course. Just think of how safe you'll be then!!

I have driven around large and small cities and towns in residential, industrial and commercial areas in both the US and the UK. I feel more secure and more private with the surveillance cams than I do with the signs along the streets that proclaim "All suspicious activity will be reported to the local police".

Still I guess to each their own.

[One of Many]

What did we expect?

The Husband and Wife team that made it are activist film makers. This is not the first conspiracy/propaganda/mock-umentary film they have done. They all have the Michael Moore-esch tone without the Hollywood backing for higher quality film. Their web site takes credit for these films being self funded. I think that has a lot more to do with the credibility of the information and how it is pieced together into a story, so no one can take issue with what they put in it, right or wrong. Common these day to hamstring pictures of actual events that don't have anything to do with the narration being delivered, but builds their case out of conjecture, packaged for easily influence minds that search out dirt to fit the injustices they have been hand fed elsewhere.

These people know what they say and think cannot be legally disputed without proof to the contrary, so therefore they would prefer you just take their word for it. I see a documentary as something that is documented and easily referenced by doing similar research. I gather that makes this a greater opinion based piece of fiction or theory than well documented. There are plenty of people in Washington that would love to hang this administration if there were anything of greater substance to this.

DC

[martinw]

I have driven around large and small cities and towns in residential, industrial and commercial areas in both the US and the UK. I feel more secure and more private with the surveillance cams than I do with the signs along the streets that proclaim "All suspicious activity will be reported to the local police".

Still I guess to each their own.

Dear Geof,

I cannot agree on that one!

I would much rather be "reported to the authorities", by a curtain-twitching local than a remote State stooge spy-cam operator who is rewarded by the number of hits he gets each day.

Best wishes

Martin

[trubleshtr]

I heard that spray paint can deplete the ozone,
so I took all my spray cans and emptied them out into a garbage bag, and then tossed it to the curb, Then I realized, that's not good for the environment.. it would just sit in a land fill, so I took it into my back yard and set it on fire,boy was that a mistake, cause it went off like a bomb! panicing to put it out I, I found the closest stream to toss it into! that flaming gooey mess quickley drifted away downstream. So Now I feel I have done my part to help global warming....Which is what this thread is about right?

[Barney]

I love it here in the USA and I love my country, I think anyone who says anything against our country is a traitor. I don't believe in biting the hand that feeds me, I have been fed and raised in this country. I think the terrorists should be locked up in prison forever, never let out to see the light of day again, end of story. I am a machinist and I deal with the facts, I am not political, I feel a man needs to work for a living and spend time with his family, I do both of those things. I see a lot of people, especially arabs and other foreigners that want everything given to them, and they spend a lot of time stirring up things around the world and causing trouble. I cannot figure out why they don't just mind their own business and work and raise their families and stop blaming the UNITED STATES for their own stupidity and personal problems. I will tell you right now, that the UNITED STATES will put you between a rock and a hard place if you don't stop messing with us. I am a white american, my family came from Ireland, but I claim no citizenship there, just american citizenship, and thats it. I hate what is happening to our country, people putting some other name in front of america when they tell someone who they are, that is a wimpy way of living, I think the country is filled with a lot of wimps nowadays, someone needs to stand up with me and tell everyone here in the states the truth instead of lying all the time. America Love it Or Leave It !!!!!!!

[Barney]

Have a nice day

[phomann]

I I think the terrorists should be locked up in prison forever, never let out to see the light of day again, end of story.

Barney,

Presumably you would would want to prove they are terrorists first? Nobody has said that terrorists shouldn't be punished. Lets just make sure they are guilty first.

Peter.

[Rekd]

- The implication that Iraq was complying with weapons inspectors prior to the US invasion.
- Trying to ally people's fears of an uncontrolled population boom with oil consumption and the war in Iraq.
- The claim that the US will run out of oil by 2010.

Just in case you missed it the first time.

[fizzissist]

..Presumably you would would want to prove they are terrorists first? Nobody has said that terrorists shouldn't be punished. Lets just make sure they are guilty first.

So, with that premise, Bill Clinton illegally, and immorally, tried to bomb Osama Bin Laden without benefit of trial?

Bill Clinton also bombed a "milk factory" in the Sudan, without those people benefitting from a trial. Oh yeah, then there's the Chinese embassy in Baghdad he bombed. All those people didn't even get to choose an attorney.

Now, if we can just get Hirraly elected, we can change the world into realizing that we're good guys, and no one else will die....on either side.

I'm sorry, but I get real tired of the naivete. I don't like any more than some of you the action of taking people who are truly innocent and subjecting them to abusive interrogation techniques. There is the problem however that many of these people simply do not think the way we do.

Does anyone believe for 2 seconds that if they had the resources they wouldn't be HERE doing exactly that, and much worse, to US?? Look what they do to their own people on both a religious AND sectarian level.

....and Rekd, sorry to burst your bubble, but we're already out of oil. Don't you remember the oil crisis of the '70s where we learned we'd be out in 30yrs?? They couldn't possibly have been wrong, could they?

[pminmo]

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2007/03/30/569/ This is a picture of a man who demonstrates kindness even toward those who seek to destroy him.
Have you seen it anywhere?

[Mariss Freimanis]

Back to global warming. I have for you a history of the future I found while playing with my temporal inverter projector apparatus:

It is the year 2,507. What will be called The Second Dark Ages started 400 years ago. The Second Renissance is still 500 years in the future.

The world is ruled by a fundementalist religion that demands strict orthodoxy from all. There is a nearly perpetual state of war between it and a large Far Eastern Empire over who will dominate the earth's remaining 2 billion inhabitants.

The technology of Western Civilization has been lost. It will not be rediscovered for another 500 years. The Second Dark Age technology consists of crude internal combustion engines, vacuum tube radio communication and coal powers everything.

Oil extraction, nuclear, semiconductor, medical and gas turbine technology is either lost or impossible because the infrastructure for it was destroyed when Western Civilization finally fell to the Second Barbarians.

What passes for technology is coal powered. Locomotives burn coal, coal powers crude electrical plant generator steam turbines. Vacuum tubes require only metal and glass; they form the apex of Dark Age electronics. Those in the hinterlands burn wood for heat and cooking.

The air is soot-filled and smoggy in the cities. The rivers are poisoned with coal mining runoff. The countryside is denuded of remaining forests. Disease is rampant, longevity measures 40-years.

No one remembers "global warming", "protected species", "animal rights", "save the eviroment", "hate speech", "diversity" or "democracy". The last living memory of these terms or what they meant died 350 years ago. If explained today, you get a confused look or a hearty laugh. People are back to being what they are between civilizations again.

The serene earth continues as it always has for 4 billion years. It may be a little warmer or a little cooler than it was 500 years ago. Species, "protected" or not, have passed into extinction while other, new species are differentiating by adaptation. Mountains continue to build and erode to the pace of a clock so slow only they can hear. Rivers, "polluted" or not, continue to course in their familiar million year old channels. The earth's ecology is neither fragile or in need of protection. It just continues to do what it has done for 4 billion years.

The last "protectors" of the enviroment died 400 years ago. Everything they sought to protect took its own natural course. They should have paid effort to protect what truly was fragile; democracy and civilization. It will take another 500 years before people are arrogant enough again to appoint themselves protectors of the earth. That will be in 3,007.

Mariss

[Geof]

Mariss; we might disagree on some topics but your Second Dark Ages story is a bit difficult to argue against; gloomy though it is. On a lighter note have you considered trying to follow the footsteps of Asimov, et al?

[Mariss Freimanis]

Funny you mention that. My heros were Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clarke and Robert Heinlein when I was a kid. I think I read everything each of them ever wrote. They unleashed my imagination at an early age and made me realize the majestic power of time, the mystery and intricacy of the universe and the smug foolhardiness of beliving you truly understand something completely.

Mariss

[SPEEDRE]

You are aware, that there is no future? It is being made nano second to nano second as we speak right now. If one could travel in time there could be no forward travel. I put it to you then, how could one go where nothing exists. I also say that if we, the humans on this Earth, do not do someting soon the disasters depicted in the movie " The Day After Tomorrow" will come true. If the oceans warm up and lose thier salinity we are in deep dodo! Be carefull what and who you believe. If one was to go metephysical, then Revelation is not all the far away. Heed the warnings, or the darkness cometh!

[martinw]

!

It is in the WORLD'S best interest to take a more active role in this global sized conflict. Our mission is not to kill people and loot the countries resources. People can debate that if they must, but lunatics hear voices too. There are far to many honorable people in this conflict to lay conspiracy over sincerity of 147,000 lives on the line for oil. Peace and prosperity are priceless and it is the gift that keeps on giving.


No one likes terrorism, but even less like seeing war used against it to bring peace. Staying united in that goal shows the greater good intentions than the side that is willing to mass murder indiscriminately. It takes a lot less warm enemy bodies and firepower when they have no rules. If the international community could step up and show how it should be done, we might get these people to stop killing sooner.

DC

Dear One of Many,

I cannot disagree with anything that you said there.

I realise that there are those that have regarded my ramblings on this thread as being less than "on-side", or worse, anti- USA. It was never my intention.

When the invasion of Afghanistan was first mooted, I was not optimistic, given the history of those who had gone before. A more powerful voice than that of history said " We owe the USA one, they saved our #ss not too long ago". A debt to be honoured. Now that's really old-fashioned.

The problem comes when continued military action in Afghanistan and Iran stirs up a vipers' nest of militant terrorism around the world, and one that might make the situation worse than it was before.

If that militant terrorism causes death and carnage in your own country, you can say "yes, maybe we are prepared to pay that price in order for other countries to be better off", or you can say " no, those other countries are not going to be better off as a result of our actions, and it isn't worth it".

Is that defeatist, or realistic? Probably both, I suspect.

Best wishes

Martin

[ynneb]

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2007/03/30/569/ This is a picture of a man who demonstrates kindness even toward those who seek to destroy him.
Have you seen it anywhere?

Thanks Phil, I will remember to show that picture to the children in these picture http://www.thefourreasons.org/victimsofwar.htm
That aught to reassure them. What the hell are they complaining about ?

I dont suppose you saw the video in its entirety that I posted earlier ?
Do you know about depleated uranium missiles, and cluster bombs.
War is not the answer, diplomacy is. Its all very well to say that diplomacy didnt work in the past. I suggest the guys who were doing the diplomacy were the wrong people for the job.

[Mariss Freimanis]

SPEEDRE,

Perhaps you are unaware of my temporal inverter project. The physics is a little muddy but it relies on the deep symmetry embedded in the universe. For every electron there is a proton, its symmetrical opposite. The sum of the charges cancel to zero. You as a biological being are symmetrical, the mirror image of you about the symmetrical axis cancels to zero were it subtracted from the non-reflected half. Energy is the symmetrical opposite of mass as Einstein proved. Mass subtracted from energy cancels to zero. The list is endless.

Time is not impervious to the laws of symmetry. A past second has a reflected future second that cancels to zero when summed. We call that sum "the present".

The temporal inverter adds a positive signed offset to the reflection point (the temporal axis of symmetry). If that offset value is 1 day then the reflection returned is 1 day in the future.

I have proof. I am writing this at 5PM on April 1, 2007. I know when I get up tomorrow, April 2, 2007 and read this forum at 4:59 PM, I will see my message appear precisely 1 minute later.

Mariss

[One of Many]

Martin,

I'd say you weren't trying hard enough, but it looks like you found something to disagree with.

My guess would be, everyone is anti-something or other. I am anti-pessimistic, because I see the greater harm is terrorism than what we are trying to accomplish there, that could ultimately reduce its appeal around the world. We can choose freely where to draw the line between right and wrong. In my estimation, this conflict chose us. Mistakes will be made, but the bottom line is the moderate Iraqi's and Afghani's have the best chance at freedom without vile rulers that harbor, cultivate and utilize terrorism as a political repercussion. Reprisals around the world only prove the point that blame does not get placed on those doing the reprisal, but the US fighting the same ruthless mentality elsewhere. I am not fooled a minute that these thugs would stop and chat with you to reach a diplomatic agreement with both parties still standing. They do not abide by reasoning with the infidel.

The previous wars that Afghanistan had were fundimentally ideology based in marxism and communist rule. The only reason the soviets were pushed back was from US support of weapons against communism. The Mujahideen would not have had a chance otherwise. Unfortunaely for us, the Mujahideen don't hold any loyalties to non-muslim nations. The meetings of the minds in Washington can only chose what options they have at the time. Since we do not know all of the gory details, it might be jumping the gun to critisize the results of the conclusion.

I am certain that the choice for war is not an easy one. That choice is not made by one person alone, although the person at the top gets to claim it, good or bad. Defeatism is leaving before the job is done or harping about how things are going. Terms like quagmire, failed or illegal war are good examples. We as civilians get so little information reported on who, what and where anything realistic is happening. The void is filled with pessimistic ramblings of defeatists and spreads like a virus. We have to seek out information on our own that shows the progress, admit the losses, regroup and move forward.

To not fight terrorism is not going to stop it. Submission is what they expect. The UN doesn't see a need to stop it even though it should have a moral obligation to do so. I do not believe you can have peace without war and terrorism survive as it is these days.

DC

[NinerSevenTango]

Mariss,

One little technical addendum -

All semiconductor technology was lost in 2014, shortly after the doddering, bloated bureaucracies of the World Economic Union experienced the collapse of the EuroDollar, brought about by a policy of creating ever more currency to pay for imported fuel and durable goods, the domestic manufacture of which were effectively outlawed in the member countries by restrictive regulations and crushing taxes.

As the currency became worthless, trade came to a halt and food shortages were experienced within weeks after the fuel to transport food
ran out. Threatened with the specter of revolution, the World Economic Union quickly printed up the New World Dollar and fixed the value by decree, while at the same time the Joint Security Council passed the Humanitarian Proclamation requiring all trading nations to accept the new currency at the stated value and to resume food and fuel shipments until the crisis had passed.

The supplier nations, finding nothing that they could buy with the new currency, and having suffered total collapse of their own economies, refused to comply. Or rather, they did not have the goods to ship anyway, not being able to force their people into the fields to collect the harvest. Acting under the authority of the Humanitarian Proclamation, naval forces were dispatched to the shores of a few of the weaker countries in an attempt to enforce the policy.

A former friend of the Union, a benevolent dictator known for keeping order in his country, suddenly became belligerent and publicly denounced the policy, daring the Union to make good on its threats. Facing the imminent depletion of the last of the fuel for its fleet, and already having to put down insurrections in its home territories, the Union began a widely publicized campaign of shelling the capitol of the belligerent country, publicly announced as the Humanitarian Police Action. Immediately the neighboring countries loudly objected, and one of them managed to sink a warship with an ancient torpedo smuggled within range on a small boat. Emboldened by this, return fire began raining on the rest of the fleet from all countries in the region.

The enraged and panicked Joint Security Council passed a secret resolution authorizing the use of a single tactical nuclear cruise missile to restore order. The missile was launched at 10:00 PM local time on October 5, 2014. The announcement was immediately made that all hostilities were to cease immediately under Operation Humanitarian Peace, or the nuclear option would be used against any aggressor nation.

At approximately 2:00 AM on October 9, 2014, submarines stationed a few miles offshore from their targets simultaneously launched low-flying cruise missiles with nuclear warheads into the heart of Washington, Brussels, New York, and London, managing to detonate all but the one destined for New York. With no nation claiming responsibility, the Joint Security Council fixed blame on the only nation with the resources to launch such an attack, and immediately launched a portion of their ICBM arsenal, targeted at the largest industrial centers in China, with a number of them programmed to detonate in the atmosphere to disrupt communications. Five minutes later, satellites detected the simultaneous launch of over two dozen large rockets from remote locations in China. Before another half hour had passed, rockets were being launched from all over the earth.

The Joint Security Council's Shield of Justice program was barely operational, having undergone preliminary testing only, but it went into action and did its job admirably, intercepting and exploding the huge nuclear payloads of the first dozen or so of the incoming rockets shortly after they re-entered the atmosphere. The nuclear hardened satellites and their ground stations withstood the resulting EMP electrical surges five times beyond what they were designed for before finally failing, after which the remaining re-entry vehicles sailed unmolested to their targets.

The electromagnetic pulses generated by the atmospheric nuclear detonations wiped out all semiconductor devices and electrical power generating facilities on earth, save a few hardened military installations. The payloads from the bombs that reached their targets obliterated the factories that manufactured the semiconductors, along with the people who had the knowledge to produce them.

With no electrical power, no running water, no sewer treatment, no garbage pickup, no refrigeration, no vehicles or fuel for transportation, no medicine, and no communications, the cities of the World Economic Union and their foes burned for weeks.

Within a few years, environmentalists and their intellectual allies in government had literally accomplished every one of their goals. Save for an increased level of background radiation, there was no more global pollution. The overpopulation problem had been decisively resolved; cholera, dysentery, and exposure having wiped out thousands of times the number of victims from the bombing. Fossil fuel use had fallen to practically zero. No longer were millions of commoners polluting the earth by wastefully driving private vehicles wherever they wanted. Private property and the right to ownership were no longer operative principles, as bands of thugs raided and murdered and plundered all but the best - defended areas, moving on when food or water ran out. It took a village to survive, as survival depended on defending small plots of farmland from the raider gangs. Earthen structures were the only shelters capable of supporting life with the meager amount of firewood available, while being fire resistant enough to withstand the attacks of the raider gangs.

Mankind had finally achieved the ideal communal, interdependent, sustainable, non-polluting status that was the aim of the leftists who, being city dwellers and intellectuals without survival skills, were generally the first to perish. The injustice of it all was that they never got to enjoy their triumphant victory.

And the rest is history.

It must be stated that the foregoing account could be in error. A Heisenberg muon may have passed through the transcriptor deflection plate just as we activated the inverter. There was an anomalous current signature in the deflector compensator supply that is hard to explain otherwise. But 85% of the committee's calculations have discounted this possibility, therefore we can claim with statistical certainty that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the final conclusion. The 15% of dissenters on the committee will be censured for obstruction of science, and their efforts will not deter the committee in its goals in the future. This unfortunate incident has been included in the interest of scientific integrity, but it should in no way be allowed to sway the public opinion, since the scientific consensus has been restored.

--97T--