[jgraves]

I agree on this one! Pathpilot is dependable, but the utility company isnt. I dont have a tool changer so I cant comment on that.

I didnt spend the big bucks so I dont expect big buck performance, I am perfectly satisfied with what it does for the price I paid......

Reliability of power is going to affect any machine. One could argue it is easier to overcome this with a 1 or 1.5hp Tormach than a 20+hp VMC. There are UPS available from people like APC that are capable of running an 1100 for at least 10's of minutes. We have a UPS on our 3D printer at the office which would run a 770 for at least half an hour. That's not long enough to finish a large run if parts but I doubt it would be very difficult to initiate feedhold on mains power failure and shut down the mill if the mains didn't come back within a few minutes. A UPS of this size is not cheap but it's not that expensive compared to broken tools and scrapped parts if you have power issues where you are.

[Moggot]

Yes I am waiting to see if any Tormach operator has ever run his machine all night.... while he slept soundly.....maybe?

I would have to take serious sleeping meds to do that! Cliff

I have, though by the time I leave it's probably down to 2 or 3 hours of run time, since I don't have an ATC and can't leave till it's on the last tool. I'm totally confident in the controller and machine, and it's running proven code, work holding and tooling. I don't think my presence will change much. And I really like the feeling of switching off the lights and hearing the machine cranking along as I walk out the door.

The worse case scenario is the tool breaks and some portion of the final op isn't finished, and that's easy enough to recover from. I'd be apprehensive about letting it run with an ATC, as I'm aware ATC failures can have a pretty severe consequences for tools and the parts underneath them.

But if I got the ATC dialed in and reliable, yeah, I'd let it run while I went home early.

[kstrauss]

We have a UPS on our 3D printer at the office which would run a 770 for at least half an hour. That's not long enough to finish a large run if parts but I doubt it would be very difficult to initiate feedhold on mains power failure and shut down the mill if the mains didn't come back within a few minutes. A UPS of this size is not cheap but it's not that expensive compared to broken tools and scrapped parts if you have power issues where you are.

For the last week I've been having daily 1-5 second power outages which have played havoc with work on my 770. What is the brand/model UPS that you mentioned?

[motoeng]

I want a well equipped single phase VM-2 with Tormach price tag I'm still trying to decide which is the right compromise.

If you were an educator, you could have a Haas Minimill for $19k. Oh how I wish they offered it to the general public for that price. By the way, thank you for the very thorough assessment of my dillema. I can't grasp a lot of what you said regarding the fixturing, but it sure does sound nice!

[jgraves]

For the last week I've been having daily 1-5 second power outages which have played havoc with work on my 770. What is the brand/model UPS that you mentioned?

We have a Stratasys Fortus 250mc running on an APC SMT2200 UPS. Looking at the specs (8 minutes at 1920W), it will probably run the 770 and controller. There is also a SMT3000 which would run the 770, controller and monitor even with the spindle maxed. I'd go with the SMT3000 if you are typically close by when running the mill and don't want to automate a safe shutdown on power failure. Having the monitor on the UPS assists you in manually shutting down the mill if the power failure last for several minutes. Obviously how hard you are pushing the mill will determine how long the battery will last.

[jgraves]

If you were an educator, you could have a Haas Minimill for $19k. Oh how I wish they offered it to the general public for that price. By the way, thank you for the very thorough assessment of my dillema. I can't grasp a lot of what you said regarding the fixturing, but it sure does sound nice!

The Minimill EDU is not just a discounted price for schools, it also is missing a bunch of features that limit it's productivity (no ATC, 4000rpm, etc). I actually think the Tormach (770 or 1100, optioned up to the same price) would be more productive in most cases.

I have a very strong mechanical background but most of what I learned about CNC, CAM and fixturing came from reading on-line and watching YouTube videos. My assessment of your dilemma is just a minor tweak on a problem I was trying to solve for myself a couple years ago. If there are specific aspects you don't understand, ask. If you don't understand, chances are there will be others reading this thread that also don't understand.

[motoeng]

The Minimill EDU is not just a discounted price for schools, it also is missing a bunch of features that limit it's productivity (no ATC, 4000rpm, etc). I actually think the Tormach (770 or 1100, optioned up to the same price) would be more productive in most cases.

It's only missing the 6k spindle, coolant pump, and 10 tool ATC. Once you add those items back, your price comes to $25,880 before shipping, so a savings of $5k to get the exact same thing as the standard Mini Mill. Still a smokin deal in my opinion..

[jgraves]

When the stars are aligned and everything seems to be working, I occasionally go inside and have dinner whije the machine is running. Some times I have come back to an atc crash, though.
I have also had my Tormach machine through the night several times but it was with no tool changes, just one tool doing a big 3D part.
I think you will need to spend in the $100k plus range to get what you are looking for.

The tormach is a great first machine or hobby machine and it has allowed me to learn and make parts. If I ever feel like I can get the atc to work reliably, I actually think about adding another one to my shop. I will probably get a different/bigger machine to add instead.

I'm not sure about $100k plus but way more than $25k is becoming a more serious consideration.

I've used enough industrial tools to understand the difference between good consumer grade and industrial grade tools. I have a manual mill and lathe that I'd place in the good, large, hobby class of machine (1.5 to 2hp, roughly 1000 pounds each). I've made some fairly impressive parts on both but the lathe lacks power and the mill lacks rigidity for some of the projects I've done.

I have a friend about an hour away with a fairly basic 1100 that I have to go run some parts on. Hopefully that will help make the decision clear.

[shred]

Far more of an issue than power reliability is cutting tools break and wear, no matter how much the machine cost. I know commercial shops that run lights-out (mostly a bunch of little parts rather than one huge one), but they are always prepared to come in the morning to see reject parts and broken tools. Unless you probe the tool every toolchange, once one breaks, you can be in a world of hurt real fast if following tools rely on features supposedly cut by a broken one.

Friend in the repair business said he fixed a HAAS a couple weeks ago from when the entire toolchanger carousel dropped onto the table overnight. Stuff happens.

I leave my Tormach with ATC running for an hour or so by itself on proven code which is about as long as my code runs anyway.

[Steve Seebold]

I would make 2 fixtures that hold 6 parts each. Make them exactly the same and if you do your pargram right, every time your program sees M30 you'll have 6 finished parts.

I'll be happy to help if your programming software won't do it.

I could do make those parts on my 1100 using Mach III, but I don't have the ATC on my machine. The ATC wasn't available when I bought my machine.

I bought my machine for hobby use and something to do in my retirement. I figured for $4,200.00 I could change the tool a whole bunch of times by hand.

As I said above, I am still running Mach III and to date it has never let me down. No run away moves, it has run flawlessly for between 6 ant 7 thousand hours.

[javanree]

We have a Stratasys Fortus 250mc running on an APC SMT2200 UPS. Looking at the specs (8 minutes at 1920W), it will probably run the 770 and controller. There is also a SMT3000 which would run the 770, controller and monitor even with the spindle maxed. I'd go with the SMT3000 if you are typically close by when running the mill and don't want to automate a safe shutdown on power failure. Having the monitor on the UPS assists you in manually shutting down the mill if the power failure last for several minutes. Obviously how hard you are pushing the mill will determine how long the battery will last.

Such UPS units won't like things like VFD's connected to it. I'd seek some expert advice before plugging in a CNC machine, you might otherwise kill the UPS. Also a UPS doesn't always give a nice sine wave output (most APC SMART models do) which might cause issues, so beware.

[cncbuilt]

I heard possibly pathpilot 4 probing for tool breakage. Any truth behind it? When Pathpilot supports it I will pull the trigger on an atc. The only thing that would push me over the edge in getting an atc would being able to run lights out. I don’t have a worry in running lights out with a fully loaded pallet which only uses 1 tool.

Regarding maintenance on a Tormach for the 25k you spend you are agreeing to no onsite support and you are expected to service the machine. Phone support for Tormach is amazing though and they stock a lot of parts so typically no wait for a boat from China. If this doesn’t play well with you then get the haas and expect $1500 service calls and very expensive machine parts which is expected since they have to somehow pay an extensive haas onsite tech dept. even with the haas mini mill I feel we are comparing apples and oranges. Industrial level support and dependability with that haas mini vs consumer focused with a Tormach which is able to really be pushed and pushed hard but still consumer focused. Personally I am leaning towards adding another 1100 or maybe 2 as I continue to grow vs getting a single super fast vmc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Gilmax]

Motoeng,

I cant answer whether it makes more sense to buy your own machine or not as it really depends on your vision for your business. I own a Tormach 1100 and a Haas VF-2SSYT. If you are just looking to make 5-10 parts before committing to a production run the Tormach would make sense, but if you want to do any level of production yourself I would skip the Tormach and look at something along the lines of a Haas minimill at minimum. The Tormach even with ATC is not a production machine and long term it will not save you money. Sometimes owning your machine is more than just a clear cut financial decisions, there are many opportunities that can come up when you own your own machine. Personally I enjoy having machines and being able to make my own stuff. It's more than just a clear cut financial decision, but owning them has brought me a lot of opportunities and gives you so much potential.

[CadRhino]

Gilmax, you are in a good position to give the OP a real apples to oranges comparison of what the differences between a tormach and larger commercial machine.
I love my Tormach ((sans ATC issues) and see it like this;
- Speed; a vf2 is much more rigid and has 10x the hp so it will really be fast.
- Accuracy l; the tormach r8 spindle is prone to have runout of +\-.003. One can lap the collet and get this number tighter probably. The vf2 will be much more accurate.
- Reliability; I have already posted some of my ATC reliability issues. I have read that the smaller haas umbrella style atc’s Can have issues but the vf2 with side mount vertical atc’s seem really reliable.

It comes down to you get pretty much what you pay for.
I am glad I got my feet wet with a tormach. I can now appreciate the difference more.


QUOTE=Gilmax;2107116]Motoeng,

I cant answer whether it makes more sense to buy your own machine or not as it really depends on your vision for your business. I own a Tormach 1100 and a Haas VF-2SSYT. If you are just looking to make 5-10 parts before committing to a production run the Tormach would make sense, but if you want to do any level of production yourself I would skip the Tormach and look at something along the lines of a Haas minimill at minimum. The Tormach even with ATC is not a production machine and long term it will not save you money. Sometimes owning your machine is more than just a clear cut financial decisions, there are many opportunities that can come up when you own your own machine. Personally I enjoy having machines and being able to make my own stuff. It's more than just a clear cut financial decision, but owning them has brought me a lot of opportunities and gives you so much potential.[/QUOTE]

[mountaindew]

Motoeng,

First off my Tormach mill is a versatile tool with decent accuracy.
After reading this thread I would mention that a cnc mill is one part of a shop. I sometimes forget that I have a 600 sqft clean climate controlled area for those machines and me to work in. That space also includes a power panel with dedicated power outlets for all these precision tools and outlets for a host of support tools that are also required for mills and other tools. Things like band saws, air compressors, buffers,grinders, tumblers.......all require power and work space. Then you move on to tool storage and all those little measurement and other precision shiny things that cost about half as much as a Tormach mill. Move up to a Haas mill and that cost again goes up to match. Then after all this stuff is in place and working you need to use it! I dont know about other people around here, but in my experience this is a perishable skill. If you dont use cad/cam software often you will struggle to get things done right the first time. If you dont use these machines often, imho the machines atrophy a little and dont always work as expected after setting for weeks.The same applies to skills when operating these machines. Like operating aircraft, shooting guns, or racing motorcycles, my machinist skills seam to degrade in a short period of time. Not hard to get everything back up to speed but it takes time either way.
Giggle, my neighbor was amazed by what it took just to turn it on and get it ready to do anything

[joshetect]

I would make 2 fixtures that hold 6 parts each. Make them exactly the same and if you do your pargram right, every time your program sees M30 you'll have 6 finished parts.

This is exactly what I do, even down to the number!

This takes 2 - 9" long bars (less cutting) and when done I end up with 6 pieces finished machining and ready for finishing (tumbler, bead blast then anodize)

I can run 2 vises with a fixture in each. with the miteebite stuff I dont even take the fixtures out. Just pop out the finished pieces, vacuum them off quick, put new stock in and run the program again. I dont have an ATC, but have the PDB, So I need to be around for tool changes, but they are super quick. I have a IP camera pointing at the machine so I can keep an eye on it via a cheap tablet if I have to run upstairs.

And like mountaindew said, there are so many other things to do around the shop while the machine is running that no ATC hasnt been an issue for me.

[joshetect]

They key to making the most of your time will be creative fixturing. It will be a larger cost up front, but worth it in the end if the extra cost can be justified.

[Steve Seebold]

To answer your question directly, yes the Tormach is quite capable of running your parts in small quantities. I'd say quantities of 25 or less would be no problem.

If you plan on running hundreds or thousands of pieces, then obviously the Tormach isn't the machine for you.

I'm getting ready to set up a job that's only 30 pieces, but I have run the job before so I'll going to take a chance this time and double the order.

I had a customer when I had my shop that I us d to get a teal nice little (small parts) job from. They would order 200 pieces at a time and it never failed, after about 10 days and want 10 more pieces.

Now mind you, this was about a $12.00 part in 200 piece quantities, but I had a $350.00 minimum order and they would always go for it.

When I ran the second order I ran 25 extra pieces and delivered 200. My customer didn't let me down. About a week after I delivered 200 pieces they called and wanted 12 more. I reminded them about my $350.00 minimum and told them I would deliver their parts on Friday. Then, Friday morning I made an invoice for $350.00, pulled 12 $12.00 parts off the shelf and delivered them.

Eventually I had enough parts on the shelf that I would just pull parts from stock and deliver them.

Then I had a heart attack in the shop and sold the company when my wife decided I no longer needed the stress of ownership.

[motoeng]

Really appreciate all the excellent replies! I guess the bottom line for me is that in order to get the surface finish I require for these parts, the threading and profile will require turning. Even if place the parts in the spindle, I will still have to thread mill, adding yet another op, and I seriously doubt thread milling will provide as good a surface funish as turning. That pretty much kills the idea of getting a mini mill (if I could afford one) as I’d still need a lathe. While it seems like the Tormach won’t buy me complete independence from my machine shop, it will provide some options to help my business grow, at a relatively affordable cost. I’m also leaning more toward the 770 as opposed to the 1100 given that I only work in aluminum.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Even if place the parts in the spindle, I will still have to thread mill, adding yet another op, and I seriously doubt thread milling will provide as good a surface funish as turning.

Wrong on both counts. First, putting the part in the spindle, you can cut using a lathe tool, so finish will be EXACTLY the same as with a lathe. Second, IMHO, threadmilling beats a lathe hands-down for finish quality, and you can easily tune for a very precise fit.

Regards,
Ray L.