[QuinnSjoblom]

I've already received a bit of advice on this but I'm still stuck on this decision. I'm building a 2ft by 3ft machine for milling smaller aluminum and carbon fiber parts. Pretty sure a 1.5kw spindle is plenty of power for me but I'm limited by an er11 collet instead of er20. The 2.2kw spindle has er20, isn't much larger or heavier, and is also basically the same price, so it seems like a no brainer. Problem is, I only have a 20a 110v breaker. 2.2kw at 110v is exactly 20a and I don't know if 2.2kw is the output produced by the spindle, or the max draw of it. Also will it even get close to its max draw if I'm not hogging material, which I won't be. I would really rather go with the 2.2 if I can to have the bigger collet, but I just don't know if a 20a breaker on 110v will be enough. Another thought, in the event of a breaker trip, is there some way I can set things up so an E stop is triggered if the spindle trips it's breaker? In that case I would imagine it's no big deal, but if the spindle continues being fed into the material as it cuts off, probably gets pretty ugly.
Thoughts? Should I just go with 1.5kw and deal with er11? Or go with 2.2?

[mactec54]

I've already received a bit of advice on this but I'm still stuck on this decision. I'm building a 2ft by 3ft machine for milling smaller aluminum and carbon fiber parts. Pretty sure a 1.5kw spindle is plenty of power for me but I'm limited by an er11 collet instead of er20. The 2.2kw spindle has er20, isn't much larger or heavier, and is also basically the same price, so it seems like a no brainer. Problem is, I only have a 20a 110v breaker. 2.2kw at 110v is exactly 20a and I don't know if 2.2kw is the output produced by the spindle, or the max draw of it. Also will it even get close to its max draw if I'm not hogging material, which I won't be. I would really rather go with the 2.2 if I can to have the bigger collet, but I just don't know if a 20a breaker on 110v will be enough. Another thought, in the event of a breaker trip, is there some way I can set things up so an E stop is triggered if the spindle trips it's breaker? In that case I would imagine it's no big deal, but if the spindle continues being fed into the material as it cuts off, probably gets pretty ugly.
Thoughts? Should I just go with 1.5kw and deal with er11? Or go with 2.2?

It would be more than worth while to add a 220v circuit, as even 1.5Kw do not perform very well on 120v NA supply, I would not advise anyone to waste there money on the 110v Chinese spindles

[ger21]

Yes, there are a lot of threads about problems with spindles running on 110V.

[QuinnSjoblom]

ok, so I guess my only other option would be tapping into my oven circuit. I'm no electrician but I would assume that's 220 right? it has a 50 amp breaker. Would this work? Can I just wire in parallel to the back of the oven? or would I get some kind of adapter plug that plugs into the wall and splits off into a plug for the oven and a plug for the spindle?

heres what the wall plug looks like and the wiring in the back of the oven. I would prefer to just wire in parallel to the terminals on the back of the oven if that will work ok.

[mactec54]

ok, so I guess my only other option would be tapping into my oven circuit. I'm no electrician but I would assume that's 220 right? it has a 50 amp breaker. Would this work? Can I just wire in parallel to the back of the oven? or would I get some kind of adapter plug that plugs into the wall and splits off into a plug for the oven and a plug for the spindle?

heres what the wall plug looks like and the wiring in the back of the oven. I would prefer to just wire in parallel to the terminals on the back of the oven if that will work ok.

If there is a space in your electrical panel, for a breaker like your 50amp but 25A then that would be the best thing to do, and run the correct size cable in the wall to an outlet near where you need it for your machine, if you only need 240v then you would not run the neutral , just 2 Hot Red and Black Plus Ground, if you want the best of both from the same install 120v / 240v then you would run all 4 wires, the wiring you are looking at in your photos for your oven, is for 120v and 240v

Take a photo of your electrical panel

[tom o]

You can usee the dryer outlet instead of the oven if you don't have panel room.

[QuinnSjoblom]

If there is a space in your electrical panel, for a breaker like your 50amp but 25A then that would be the best thing to do, and run the correct size cable in the wall to an outlet near where you need it for your machine, if you only need 240v then you would not run the neutral , just 2 Hot Red and Black Plus Ground, if you want the best of both from the same install 120v / 240v then you would run all 4 wires, the wiring you are looking at in your photos for your oven, is for 120v and 240v

Take a photo of your electrical panel

I'm in an apartment so changing things in the electrical panel and adding plugs in the wall isn't really an option. I was planning on just running 220 from the oven and use an existing 110 outlet for the rest of the machine. So you're saying what I'm looking at on the back of the oven is both 110 and 220 and I will only use red, black, and ground to tap into the 220? There's a convenient space behind my cabinets where I can run a cord from the oven to over where my machine will be if I can do it that way. I would really just prefer to not open up the electrical box and start changing things there.

[Mikescnc]

Don't do that! I am an electrician, your 2.2KW should be run on a VFD which will be 3phase to the spindle. 2.2KW at 3Phase is just around 17 amps, at 240V 20A, run a circuit from the panel, You are not allowed to parallel the range or the dryer. to have the E stop shut it down you will need a current sensing circuit, or your VFD to trip the E stop.

[Mikescnc]

Next option is to add a small breaker panel to your machine, Get a #10/4 SO cord made up to go in the dryer outlet to feed the panel, (it must be a four wire system) then you can have a 240v 20A circuit for the spindle and a 120V circuit for the control box, if you trip some thing then the whole thing shuts down, you won't be able to do laundry while the machine is running.

[QuinnSjoblom]

Next option is to add a small breaker panel to your machine, Get a #10/4 SO cord made up to go in the dryer outlet to feed the panel, (it must be a four wire system) then you can have a 240v 20A circuit for the spindle and a 120V circuit for the control box, if you trip some thing then the whole thing shuts down, you won't be able to do laundry while the machine is running.

Ok, so the problem with using the dryer is its like 30 feet away from where the machine will be and will require a cord running down the hallway and across the room. Can the same not be done with the oven? I could get a plug extension that would plug into the range outlet and come into the cabinet next to it. The cord for the oven as well as the cord for the machine could also come into that cabinet. That way I can plug either one in since parallel is a no go. Will this work? The cord for the machine can still go to a breaker box at the machine like you explained. The reason for running an extension into the cabinet next to it as well as oven cord and machine cord is just to avoid pulling out the oven each time I want to unplug it and plug the machine in, which I guess is an option if the extension in the cabinet is a bad idea. Really I guess it wouldn't be a big deal to pull the oven out to switch. It's really light and only took me a second to do when I took a pic earlier. Is there some other reason why you suggested the dryer instead of the oven?

[ger21]

Oven's don't typically have plugs that are accessible. If it actually has a plug, then it's really no different than using the dryer outlet.

[mactec54]

Don't do that! I am an electrician, your 2.2KW should be run on a VFD which will be 3phase to the spindle. 2.2KW at 3Phase is just around 17 amps, at 240V 20A, run a circuit from the panel, You are not allowed to parallel the range or the dryer. to have the E stop shut it down you will need a current sensing circuit, or your VFD to trip the E stop.

He is already very aware, about using a VFD, you should also know that his 2.2Kw spindle is only 9.2amps max not 17amps do the math

[KH0UJ]

For convenience purposes, you can still utilize you 110V outlet to output a 220V power supply, get some step down transformer (2KW) and plug it in reverse, the 110V outlet will now be the input, and the 220V input will be the output, it` now called step-up transformer instead of a step down usually refrigeration systems coming from Korea shipped to the US have that small transformer located underneath beside the compressor, the outlet is 110VAC but the compressor is 220VAC

[Mikescnc]

The cord for the range plug will have to handle 40A or 50A depending on the breaker for the range, the dryer is at 30A, so the wire for the dryer is cheaper is all, as long as you use the proper size wire it doesn't matter which one you use.

[QuinnSjoblom]

The cord for the range plug will have to handle 40A or 50A depending on the breaker for the range, the dryer is at 30A, so the wire for the dryer is cheaper is all, as long as you use the proper size wire it doesn't matter which one you use.

Using the range outlet is definitely closer and more convenient. It's a 50A breaker but I don't understand why the wiring from the machine to the range outlet needs to handle 50a. The machine will draw well under 20a right? This is assuming I just unplug the oven and plug the machine into the outlet when I want to run it. Are you just referring to my idea of using an extension into the cabinet next to the oven? In that case, yes the extension would need to be capable of 50a from the oven. But if I just unplug the oven and plug in the machine, why does the cable need to handle 50a?

Actually on second thought I think I understand why. Under normal operation the smaller cable would be fine but if I was to have a short somewhere between the outlet and the machine, potentially the wire could burn before the 50a breaker would pop. Could I address this by just adding a 30a or so fuse to the cable near the outlet so I don't need to use monstrous cable?

[Mikescnc]

Yes the breaker protects the wire in case something goes wrong, that is why the ground wire is there, it is the current path back to the panel to allow the breaker to trip, ALWAYS CONNECT THE GROUNDS!
I am not sure how you would get an inline fuse in the cable, but that would work, you need to fuse both hots for the wire size that you are going to use, 30A for a #10 copper, the fuse only protects the wire on the load side, so all wire on the line side needs to be sized according to the breaker that feeds it. Hope this is helping. I havebeen watching this group for years and I have learned alot from it, this is the first time I think I have ever posted to it though. Merry Christmas

[QuinnSjoblom]

Yes the breaker protects the wire in case something goes wrong, that is why the ground wire is there, it is the current path back to the panel to allow the breaker to trip, ALWAYS CONNECT THE GROUNDS!
I am not sure how you would get an inline fuse in the cable, but that would work, you need to fuse both hots for the wire size that you are going to use, 30A for a #10 copper, the fuse only protects the wire on the load side, so all wire on the line side needs to be sized according to the breaker that feeds it. Hope this is helping. I havebeen watching this group for years and I have learned alot from it, this is the first time I think I have ever posted to it though. Merry Christmas

Yes, this is definitely helping. Thanks for all the input so far. At this point I'm pretty sure I will go with a 2.2kw 220v spindle and use the oven plug as a power source. I'm glad I asked more about it rather than just going with a 1.5kw on 110v.

One more question on the subject, earlier you mentioned using all 4 wires from the oven outlet so I can power the spindle on 220v and the rest of the machine on 110v so it's all on the same circuit, advantage being if the spindle trips the breaker I use at the machine, it will also shut down everything else and prevent the stopped spindle from mashing into the material. Since I'll now have a reliable 220v power source with more than enough amperage capability, I'm not really worried so much about that specific scenario. It might be beneficial for me to just use the oven plug for 220v to the spindle and a separate 110v outlet for the rest of the machine. That way I can work on the machine, do calibrating, learn how to use the machine, etc. without having to tie up the oven outlet when I'm not actually cutting. Are there any other disadvantages to having the spindle on one circuit and the rest of the machine on another circuit? I thought I read something about issues with looping grounds when using different circuits for different parts of the machine, but I didn't really have an understanding of what was being said. Is there actually an issue with using 2 separate circuits for spindle and machine if I choose to do it that way?

[mactec54]

Yes, this is definitely helping. Thanks for all the input so far. At this point I'm pretty sure I will go with a 2.2kw 220v spindle and use the oven plug as a power source. I'm glad I asked more about it rather than just going with a 1.5kw on 110v.

One more question on the subject, earlier you mentioned using all 4 wires from the oven outlet so I can power the spindle on 220v and the rest of the machine on 110v so it's all on the same circuit, advantage being if the spindle trips the breaker I use at the machine, it will also shut down everything else and prevent the stopped spindle from mashing into the material. Since I'll now have a reliable 220v power source with more than enough amperage capability, I'm not really worried so much about that specific scenario. It might be beneficial for me to just use the oven plug for 220v to the spindle and a separate 110v outlet for the rest of the machine. That way I can work on the machine, do calibrating, learn how to use the machine, etc. without having to tie up the oven outlet when I'm not actually cutting. Are there any other disadvantages to having the spindle on one circuit and the rest of the machine on another circuit? I thought I read something about issues with looping grounds when using different circuits for different parts of the machine, but I didn't really have an understanding of what was being said. Is there actually an issue with using 2 separate circuits for spindle and machine if I choose to do it that way?

Yes you don't want to use ( 2 ) different supplies for your machine or you will have an unsafe machine, you will create a Ground loop

The only way you can do it, and be safe is with ( 1 ) 4 wire cable, you will mount a box at your machine where the supply cable will run to, you will connect the supply cable to a disconnect,( Required ) then in your box you will have for the VFD a Breaker or ( 2 ) fuses for the ( 2 ) hot wires, for your 120v single phase supply you will have ( 1 ) fuse for ( 1 ) of the Hot wires

You will need a Ground stud mount in your Box, clear of any paint, for connecting the input power supply Ground to, and all other Ground wires will connect to this same point, ( Star Ground )

[genixia]

Good decision. Aside from all the other good reasons above, the er11 collet would hamper face surfacing operations. I'm not sure what its maximum shank capacity is, but er16 is limited to 3/8" or 11mm and that is nearly impossible to find a face mill for - I eventually found a 3/4" 2 cutter indexed face mill with a 3/8 shank. I'd think that you'd be lucky to find anything to fit er11.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[QuinnSjoblom]

Ok, sounds good. I will run everything off the 4 wire plug from the oven outlet. Once I come up with a specific plan for the wiring, fuses/breakers, grounds, etc., I will draw a diagram and run it by you guys before doing it.

One thing I'm curious about just for educational purposes, what is the specific reason that wiring in parallel with the oven doesn't work? Is it just because the wiring for the oven is only designed to handle the amperage of the oven itself and not also the spindle at the same time? Or is there some other reason? Let's say I wired in parallel to the back of the oven and then out to the machine (I absolutely wouldn't unless I was told it was OK by an experienced electrician). If I had a way to ensure the oven was never turned on at the same time as the machine, is there actually a specific problem with this? Let's say even if I did accidentally turn on one of the oven burners while the machine was running, what would happen? Obviously the wiring for the oven is designed to handle all 4 burner elements going full blast, plus the broiler on, plus the vent fan, plus some margin. So even if a burner was turned on while the machine was running, it would easily still be well within the amperage limit of the oven plug wiring and breaker. Is there some reason why the oven and machine can't run in parallel other than amperage limitations? Even worst case scenario, let's say all heating elements for the oven are turned on at the same time the machine is running, wouldn't it just trip the 50a breaker and shut down both the machine and the oven? I would imagine the wiring for the oven is designed to withstand at least the 50a that trips the breaker. Just curious