[deadlykitten]

hello, i have this in my mind from a while : is it better to be a cnc or a pc programmer ? or what do you like ?

entry salaries in cnc shops, for a novice, are lower then entry salaries for a pc programmer, but as you develop, there is a chance for a better salary in both environments

there are more pc programmers than cnc programmers, and also is easier to learn stuff inside a pc programming shop, because more employees are having similar skills, while, in a cnc shop, maybe there is 1, or more programmers, that don't have time to teach others, etc ... thus, i wish to say that cnc programming seems to have a greater learning curve, thus you have to invest a lot of time to gain some skills, and there are less places where to ask for help, thus specifics are hard to find, and manuals are hard to understand, especially those translated from japanese

i believe that in cnc programing, is a lot of noise, while in pc programming some things are a bit straight-through

i recently heared that there are less taxes on a pc programmer, while the cnc programmer has to pay taxes just like everybody else ...

in both enviroments, after a while, you may get 2 - 3000 / month, with more skills you may reach 5 - 6000 / month, and more then this is possible, but is not common

... and of course, there is one cnc person, across the river, that makes 10000 / month, with extra-hours and working in a shop with heavy equipment, but well, this is not common

so, if i may, what is your opinion about this ? pc or cnc programing ?


one more thing : there are kids-teenagers with crazy pc programming skills, while best cnc programmers are .... i don't know, do they exist ? kindly

[Jim Dawson]

Comparing CNC programming to PC programming is like comparing apples to watermelons. The only real parallel is that they both use math and logic. In my opinion writing G code is actually more complex than PC application programming because of all the things you have to know. G code programming requires a different and more varied skill set. But there is no reason that a person can't do both.

A G code programmer should at least have some machining experience where PC application programmer only needs a good head for logic and math. Both need a good understanding of the language that they are developing in.

I think the reason that PC application programmers make more money is that there is huge $$ in applications that become popular. I think employers don't appreciate the skill set that a CNC programmer needs to have, on the other hand, CNC programmers don't make an employer as near as much money as PC application programmers can.

Taxes? Around here everybody pays taxes based on income.

[he1957]

Agree with Jim.

CNC programmers require knowledge about the physical environment they are programming in as well. Example being jigs, fixtures, hold-downs and such. Applications programmers have a wealth of libraries and tools to assist them and mistakes in code (bugs) do not cause physical damage to the computers they run on as opposed to CNC machine crashes.

CNC machine builders all seem to have their own "custom" codes to some extent as well, ie: although there are some ANSI standards for base G-codes, there are many additional/extension codes that are somewhat unique (or slightly different) between controls makers. This is quite rare in PC programming these days.

Machine shops seems to be rarer because of large scale manufacturing so these jobs are likely becoming more scarce. Numbers of PC programmers keep increasing every year but what software/applications do people need in ever increasing numbers?

Are you planning on a career change?

[hfjbuis]

As a PC programmer i have to spend the same amount of time for programming as for learning new skills and programming languages just to keep up with the fast evolving technologies. The developments for CNC programming aren't changing that fast. I do both and have a lot of fun. I realy can't say one is more complicated then the other. If you have to do something "for the rest of your life" you better choose the job you like the most!

[deadlykitten]

hello guys

what i don't like about programming cnc's, is that you can not implement a function as easy as inside a pc program, because available functions are pretty limited, and you have to do a lot of tricks to achieve something; the classical "if goto" inside a cnc seems more then enough in most cases, but when i try to write a more complex cnc soubroutine, and i have to nest a lot of conditional code, is a bit messy i call this "head shift", thus i need to change my perspective between programing on pc or on cnc

in short, after a while, if i need to review a code, i have this problems :
... on pc, codes are longer, so i need time to remember how all those things link toghether
... on cnc, codes are shorter, but comprehensive, and i have to think not only about the code, but also about how the controller behaves when performing that code

when you program on pc, you can imediatly debug it, while on cnc you have to run time-consuming trials, and sometimes is not easy to debug the code, because the controller is not going to tell what goes wrong, so a lot of guessing is required

if on pc i spent time thinking " how to do that ? ", on a cnc is " wtf have i done ? "

employers don't appreciate the skill set that a CNC programmer needs to have

only a few understand, and not all employers have "relevant" machining experience

the reason that PC application programmers make more money is that there is huge $$ in applications that become popular

definetly, things are moving faster in the pc world; evolving standards, etc

there is something interesting : all hardware equipment requires cnc technology to be produced, and here things are going faster & faster, because there is a demand; however, machine tools producers can not incorporate very easy the latest software technology

The developments for CNC programming aren't changing that fast

yup, the developments aren't chaning that fast ... it could be possible, but i guess that it costs

there was a video about why cars producers are not replacing ( soon ) metal chassis with carbon fiber, and the thing was that this move would imediatly lower client's costs, leading to fuel economy, but the car factory would need to wait for years to get back the money that was invested inside this change; a quick benefit for the client may be a huge loss/risk for the vendor/factory

I do both and have a lot of fun

if i may, what are you doing ? are those separate jobs, or you are creating applications for the cnc ? kindly

[hfjbuis]

if i may, what are you doing ? are those separate jobs, or you are creating applications for the cnc ? kindly

I don't do anything any more, I am retired now. That gives time to do all those interesting and exciting things that waren't economically to do for the company. Now I make prototypes (just for me) and to do that I retrofitted my lathes (designing part) and made the parts needed myself (turning and milling part). For CNC turning I program my CNC lathes (CNC part). Because that is time consuming, I made my own Wizard program so now CNC turning is just entering some values from the drawing (PC application part). All together, the fun part, being retired is very time consuming, but never a dull day and still more ideas come up every day!

[he1957]

What do you use to do the PC drawing part and what does your "Wizard" do?

[hfjbuis]

I made drawings using ProGeCad and changed last year to DraftSight.

My wizards basically do small tasks like facing, turning, chamfering, threading, knurling, taper turning, filet turning etc. Combine these small tasks and most parts can be made except those who have "exotic shapes". For me, this works great for prototyping and small series. For large series, where time is money, fusion360 does a better job.

[deadlykitten]

Are you planning on a career change?

no, i still have to learn stuff; there are things that i know i can do, but i didn't do them yet

That gives time to do all those interesting and exciting things that waren't economically to do for the company

if i may, what is your agenda ? maybe it seems "a simple" question, but, i am after veteran tricks & tips, ideas, etc, why did you have to wait so long, why was not it possible to do them while you were hired ?

Because that is time consuming, I made my own Wizard program so now CNC turning is just entering some values from the drawing (PC application part). All together, the fun part, being retired is very time consuming, but never a dull day and still more ideas come up every day!

My wizards basically do small tasks like facing, turning, chamfering, threading, knurling, taper turning, filet turning etc. Combine these small tasks and most parts can be made except those who have "exotic shapes"

so far, i have only messed my head with okuma osp, and after a while i was told by 2 different persons that the number of keystrokes required to do something is too much; this was like a bang for me : what if there is a way to do things faster ? and what things am i delivering too slow ? however, i did not had the oportunity to stand near those guys, so to see exactly what they are reffering to ?!

for a short time, i also had some experience with fanuc / mitsubishi controls, but i did not find something there to boost me i am not saying that other controls are not ok; i simply did not had yet the oportunity to see other things in action, at full potential

so i started boosting my self, in places where i believed that i should insist i know, sounds lame ... most of the tips i found on the cnc zone, from my okuma dealer and from manuals, but i never stood near someone experienced 8hours/day, so to learn things fast, or at least to be told an advice before starting doing something wrong

this is why, i would like to ask you why did you created that wizard, and maybe if you wish to show a sample/video about how are you using it ? kindly

[hfjbuis]

if i may, what is your agenda ? maybe it seems "a simple" question, but, i am after veteran tricks & tips, ideas, etc, why did you have to wait so long, why was not it possible to do them while you were hired ?

@deadlykitten

When I was hired i had to do things because the company would benefit (and so it should be), not because I was curious to try out something new. Now I am retired (at 47) i don't care if it is economically or wise to do because I waste my own time and money.

My agenda is to have fun and grow old on a healthy way.

I created the wizzards because i like doing it and now my lathes can do things, like turning a timing belt pulley cutter, that can't be done manual and are difficult to do in CNC code.

I have send you a pm for the other questions!

[deadlykitten]

retired (at 47)

omg man, arround here this happens at 60-65yo, and even so, most retired guys are still working ... maybe they like what they do, maybe pensions are ( really ) low, maybe both

well, netherlands ? maybe is not so bad

[deadlykitten]

so, you basically took a normal lathe, and you have done all the wirings + software, control, mechanical improvements, etc, so to make it run in cnc mode ? nice

a while ago i also wished to do the same, and i believe that many persons from this kind of area had tried, or wished, or actually deliverd such a thing ...

i don't have experience with electronics, or things like that, thus i can hold a batery in my hand, maybe change a lightbulb, and that's all but one of my friends had, and we got some arduino motors, tried to make them move, but i needed to make it move from delphi, and he was using a different software, and this was a problem, we hit a wall. i wished to build a cnc pantograf ( something like attached ), thus a paralelogram mechanism + cnc ( ratio 10 : 1,etc ) , and this would easy deliver accuracy < 1um. Also the arduino was playing everithing like a casete, and i was looking for feed-hold functions, etc. This custom thing required too much time, and i could not make it work back then ( circa 10 years ago ).

Meanwhile i started my way through the cnc machines, and now most of my time goes into them i try to deliver some custom methods, etc, but developing them is time consuming ... and when i think i got it right, it takes a while, and i have to re-consider well, i just hope to achieve a finish product soon, and "bring it to front", so to be analized by more experienced persons

if i may, about your work, is it all ok ? could you convince also others, so to let you convert their machines ? is it worth it / pleasure ?

[hfjbuis]

if i may, about your work, is it all ok ? could you convince also others, so to let you convert their machines ? is it worth it / pleasure ?

I basically only do things for my self but helped some one getting his retrofitted (industrial) CNC mill to finish after he was disappointed by some people, but that was just once because it was fun to do. I don't want to make a habbit out of it because it is time consuming and my clock is ticking!
I have made a "site" about retrofitting my first lathe and some small modifications I made to get more accuracy. It shows, things can be done without the need to spend lots of money. It takes some time and if you like doing it, I think it is worth doing it because you learn a lot and after doing it your self you can better decide what to do next. If you are a company you should really consider buying a CNC machine because hours spent are costly.

.

My Lathe - Metal Worker Tools

[deadlykitten]

hy hfjbuis, yup, i saw yesterday all those modifications and the cncl thread; one tip that i liked was that about reducing backlash by rotating the nut

If you are a company you should really consider buying a CNC machine because hours spent are costly

depends .... for example, arround here was a factory ( now is closed ) that used to produce machine tools, that are still being used today in many shops. After a while small automation appeared, making it possible to assist with simple tasks.

There still exist some shops that deliver specific parts, by machining them on special machines. They can't replace them with cnc's, because of their complexity, etc...

Almost a year ago i had been at an exposition for metal cutting industry, and there i met a person that was building thematic cnc machines. I started talking with him, because, his 'lathe' looked normal from the outside ( front covers, etc ), but after you would open its doors, you could see that things where different inside. He said that he can deliver specialized machines.

At that moment we were running some setups that required the parts to be rechucked, in order to remove burs, cut a small chamfer, and a lot of time was lost because of such auxialary operations. So i showed him the parts, and the discussion concluded that we could took one of our small lathes, put some automation on it, and a mechanism that would keep feeding parts into the machine. It sounded really nice and palpable, but i could not convince others that this project will actually free at least 4 classical machines, because day by day there were 4 classical lathes blocked by this auxialary operation.

Not everybody understands things, and there are people that don't care if a thing can be made faster, they simply care to see the machines working, without looking into process reliability. Running a bussines, and all those bills, makes some people a bit nervous, looking only into the "today" time, instead of looking forward ... well, whatever, what's done is done / kindly

[hfjbuis]

There are things you can do to speed up

cut a small chamfer

• If you use a quick change toolholder, you can setup the chamfer tool to replace the current cutting tool without any setup adjustments.
• I make my own HSS and insert tools by milling. I can adjust these tools so that all tools are equally in length and width. These tools can be swapped "without" adjustments depending on the accuracy needed.
• You could also add DRO's to the lathe and use a different Work Position (G54 like) for each tool. This makes life easier.
• etc.

I am not saying this is the way to do it, but just consider alternatives that are easy to implement and don't cost so much.

a mechanism that would keep feeding parts into the machine

These mechanism are usually custom made and dedicated to just a single part. I have learned walking step by step. I believe moving to CNC requires the same process. Just do a small upgrade, test, learn and then try the next step. Along the way you find out if it is the right way and if not, you can adjust the direction a bit. Once you start with a full automated production line, it is hard to change the direction because the cost of the machine, tools, education etc are hugh.

If time is not critical (yet) and the machine hasn't to run for 10 years, you could consider using a cheap (used) CNC machine just to get started.

[deadlykitten]

back then, i was looking for an alternative, that would debur/chamfer the parts that were machined on the cnc lathes; problem was that all parts that were delivered by the cnc needed deburing, and for this task were used 4 classical lathes, daily ... money was not a problem, but there were other kind of problems. Such an investment would definitely pay-off, at least for those types of parts that were being machined : just imagine, parts would come out finished just like pop-corn one after the other ...

my clock is ticking! ... if time is not critical (yet)

what's the deal with time ? are you in a rush ? should i be aware of something ? kindly

[hfjbuis]

there were other kind of problems

It is never just buying equipment, there is lot more to get it working and to keep it working. Also keep in mind that people, afraid to lose their job could do unforeseen things. You really need the commitment of the whole team to make it a success.

what's the deal with time ? are you in a rush ?

No I am not in a rush but I quit working to do other things. When I start doing things for others, than I have to take care about service and problem solving and this will cost free time. I consider my health and free time as my most valuable goods!

[deadlykitten]

You really need the commitment of the whole team to make it a success

yup, like a good football team : they need to be skilled, pass the ball, and try to work as a team

I consider my health and free time as my most valuable goods!

yup, and i pity those that stay in traffic for hours : so far i have always been close ( < 10 min ) to kindergarten / school / college / work 1 / work 2 / work n