[Goemon]

I saw a 3D metal printer yesterday. It was printing complex aluminum parts using an aluminum spool that was melted by a laser. It was Amazing! The future....only it was now..... The finished parts looked like regular CNC milled metal parts.

Do you guys have a view on how far away this is from becoming mainstream and a viable alternative to CNC milling?

I like the idea of being able to make metal parts without the chip mess, noise, expense of end mills and toolholders etc.

[Jim Dawson]

I suspect in a couple of decades additive fabrication will surpass subtractive fabrication. The technology is improving daily, and be will mainstream in time. Will it ever completely replace subtractive fabrication? No, I don't think so. There is a place for both technologies.

[Goemon]

I suspect in a couple of decades additive fabrication will surpass subtractive fabrication. The technology is improving daily, and be will mainstream in time. Will it ever completely replace subtractive fabrication? No, I don't think so. There is a place for both technologies.

Sounds like a reasonable guess to me.

I think a lot depends on how much progress they make and how quickly prices drop. Cheap 3D printers have been around for a while but it took a lot longer for the superior stereolithography machines to reach the benchtop.

It would be interesting to see how much the current benchtop 3D metal printers cost. Like this one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jra89EwV4

[mactec54]

I saw a 3D metal printer yesterday. It was printing complex aluminum parts using an aluminum spool that was melted by a laser. It was Amazing! The future....only it was now..... The finished parts looked like regular CNC milled metal parts.

Do you guys have a view on how far away this is from becoming mainstream and a viable alternative to CNC milling?

I like the idea of being able to make metal parts without the chip mess, noise, expense of end mills and toolholders etc.

Keep dreaming, it won't happen in your lifetime, all of these types of printing machines, are only good for doing prototypes, which still need machining after printing, the same as 3D plastic printers won't replace injection molding, they take too long to produce a part, to make them cost effective, for doing prototypes they are great for any manufacture have

They have been printing metal parts for a number of years, they even do jet engine parts in Inconel

[awerby]

Direct printing in metal is getting better and cheaper all the time. But it's still a long way from replacing CNC for most jobs. If it's a relatively small
but critical part of an expensive assembly, with a geometry that's too complex for milling, then printing is a viable method of producing it right now. But size is an issue here, as is cost. The process requires very expensive machinery and few of these machines can build large parts. But some of them build precisely enough that post-build machining is not necessary, or is a lot simpler than machining the whole part would be. Another alternative, that's a lot cheaper, is to build parts in a wax-like resin, and use a lost resin casting process to produce them in metal. There are also machines that build molds directly in sand held together with a refractory binder, into which molten metal can be poured.

[Kenny Duval]

No one is ever going to convince that these printed parts have the same structural integrity as their forged and machined counterparts.

[handlewanker]

.....and a guy who was very up to date with his technology once stated with conviction...…." I expect that there will only ever be a few computers needed that someone will use to do a job"...….he was someone in authority who worked for Microsoft I think....can't remember the actual quote.

Anything that can be dreamed of can become a reality if enough people can see it's potential.

It doesn't take much thought to realise that if you have a casting there is only a bit of it that actually needs machining.....for the most part the body is as cast.

I think that would apply to a printed object in metal too.....only machine if necessary where it's needed...….the rest is just infrastructure...…...that would cut out a whole lot of pattern making and casting equipment, something most of us don't get to do or want to get involved in.

A casting is not an accurate item once it cools down...….whereas a printed metal item would be so I think...….the amount of heating would not be present.

A lot depends on the volume.....too early to think of the future trends, but I think that the ability to draw up a part in CAD and send it to a printer to get a finished part in a short while is awesome.
Ian.

[mactec54]

.....and a guy who was very up to date with his technology once stated with conviction...…." I expect that there will only ever be a few computers needed that someone will use to do a job"...….he was someone in authority who worked for Microsoft I think....can't remember the actual quote.

Anything that can be dreamed of can become a reality if enough people can see it's potential.

It doesn't take much thought to realise that if you have a casting there is only a bit of it that actually needs machining.....for the most part the body is as cast.

I think that would apply to a printed object in metal too.....only machine if necessary where it's needed...….the rest is just infrastructure...…...that would cut out a whole lot of pattern making and casting equipment, something most of us don't get to do or want to get involved in.

A casting is not an accurate item once it cools down...….whereas a printed metal item would be so I think...….the amount of heating would not be present.

A lot depends on the volume.....too early to think of the future trends, but I think that the ability to draw up a part in CAD and send it to a printer to get a finished part in a short while is awesome.
Ian.

You need an understanding of the process, they have been sintering metal before you where born, this is just another, way of sintering metal and can produce any shape you want, without having a mold, it take hours to produce a plastic part, metal is even a longer process, the process is no more accurate than casting, still has shrinkage and vestige, so if the parts being made need any accuracy then machining is required after heat treating the part, just the same as any cast part

[RCaffin]

" I expect that there will only ever be a few computers needed that someone will use to do a job"

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
-- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

Cheers
Roger

[A_Camera]

" I expect that there will only ever be a few computers needed that someone will use to do a job"

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
-- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

Cheers
Roger

If those words have ever been really said and if he meant as the quote is used then there is an excuse for him. Computers were new inventions at that time, there were no similar products, extremely complicated to make and enormously expensive, not just to build, but also to run. If the invention of transistor would have never taken place then I think Watson would have been proved right. CNC machining and 3D printing, as well as sintering metal is not new technology so we have a better reference base to guess the future than Watson had. He was proven wrong pretty fast, just a few years after that statement but that's because of the transistor making it possible to build smaller, more powerful, less demanding computers.

I am not sure if he really said that or if it is just an anecdote, like Bill Gates famous words about "640kb memory is more than anyone ever will need, so we'll build our computers to handle maximum 1024kb memory". He never said anything similar, even though some people claim he did. He was a real vision-er, perhaps he still is, Watson was a finance man, just thinking about $$$$.

[A_Camera]

If those words have ever been really said and if he meant as the quote is used then there is an excuse for him. Computers were new inventions at that time, there were no similar products, extremely complicated to make and enormously expensive, not just to build, but also to run. If the invention of transistor would have never taken place then I think Watson would have been proved right. CNC machining and 3D printing, as well as sintering metal is not new technology so we have a better reference base to guess the future than Watson had. He was proven wrong pretty fast, just a few years after that statement but that's because of the transistor making it possible to build smaller, more powerful, less demanding computers.

I am not sure if he really said that or if it is just an anecdote, like Bill Gates famous words about "640kb memory is more than anyone ever will need, so we'll build our computers to handle maximum 1024kb memory". He never said anything similar, even though some people claim he did. He was a real vision-er, perhaps he still is, Watson was a finance man, just thinking about $$$$.

Actually, just yesterday I watched a historical documentary on TV about technological developments of the 80's and saw an interview with Steve Jobs, just after the official release of Macintosh in 1984, and the reporter asked about his future computer dreams. His answer was that he dreams about a computer as powerful as the Macintosh in the size of a book but thin as a magazine... "but that's technologically impossible". Looking at my phone or any tablets, all of those are MORE powerful than my old SE/30 from 1989, which I still have and is in working condition. So, guessing the future is not easy, not even if you are heavily involved in technology and are part of that future.

[awerby]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "any" accuracy. Digital Metal, for example, a Swedish company that makes small intricate parts using a build and sinter process, says that their parts have a resolution of up to 35 microns, their machines build in layers as small as 42 microns, and that their overall dimensional accuracy is .5%: https://all3dp.com/interview-with-di...inted-objects/

While that might not match the tolerances for the best precision CNC machines, it's not too shabby, and these processes are still evolving.

[mactec54]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "any" accuracy. Digital Metal, for example, a Swedish company that makes small intricate parts using a build and sinter process, says that their parts have a resolution of up to 35 microns, their machines build in layers as small as 42 microns, and that their overall dimensional accuracy is .5%: https://all3dp.com/interview-with-di...inted-objects/

While that might not match the tolerances for the best precision CNC machines, it's not too shabby, and these processes are still evolving.

That's what they say, they are trying to sell machines, this process has a 20% shrinkage rate, this is the hardest part to control, just the shrinkage alone is very hard to control on larger parts, small parts you have the same shrinkage problem, but not so difficult to control, because the part is small, all matting surfaces still need machining, no matter what process they use, or how accurate there process is

[QuinnSjoblom]

so a dimensional accuracy of .5%, that means a 100mm dimension will be give or take half a mm? sounds like it needs to get at least 10 times that accurate to be anywhere near not needing post machining, and still not great.

[A_Camera]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "any" accuracy. Digital Metal, for example, a Swedish company that makes small intricate parts using a build and sinter process, says that their parts have a resolution of up to 35 microns, their machines build in layers as small as 42 microns, and that their overall dimensional accuracy is .5%: https://all3dp.com/interview-with-di...inted-objects/

While that might not match the tolerances for the best precision CNC machines, it's not too shabby, and these processes are still evolving.

I am sure it is technically possible to reach high accuracy but at what costs? Those printers are not for everyday users. Will it ever replace CNC machining? No, never. But it definitely is possible to find users/buyers because with a 3D printer one can do things a CNC can never manage to make, at least not in one piece. So yes, finding areas of use is possible but will not replace CNC machining.

[RCaffin]

Additive machining (a fancy term for 3D printing) does have some very real advantages in some cases. NASA and various companies have been 3D printing titanium rocket engine parts - very big ones too. Conventional machining one of these can take several years and cost a fortune in metal and machinery as the various parts are mainly (large) empty shapes.

To be sure, 3D printing titanium (with a sintering laser) is going to incur a rather big up-front cost, but you could almost cover that by the savings in titanium metal alone. My understanding is that the strength of the laser-sintered titanium is close enough to that of bulk metal - which figures when you consider what a laser beam can do. And you can of course pick your alloy.

Bit too expensive for me though...

Cheers
Roger

[jimbojames]

Hi guys and girls I came up with a great market invested a lot of time research built a website gained global orders but then it all went wrong..

RC Car and Truck rare and retro bodies 1/0 in size .07mm in vacuum formed plastic are a global hit among hobbyist
so I suppose naively bought a few altered them to my liking firbreglassed them to make them hard bought a vacuum former BUT the vacuum former was far to small a CR Clare 725 the detail on the model was weak and it all fell apart. a non starter..

I need 1/10 car software or camera then need to be able to reproduce a hard body to either try to vacuum form again or a piece of kit I can have milled into plastic bodies example 1/10 land rover defender body 260mm wheelbase in white ready for the hobbyist to cut out windows e paint if they like etc... the big reason for me to continue is my son of 17 a twin passed in a fire 3 days before xmass and he helped me so I need this project to work sorry to sound so confused I know what sells just unsure how to make or get made thanks all james

[handlewanker]

LOL...…..yes, sometimes you gotta just admire the technology without actually thinking of getting deeply involved in it...…….I admire rocket technology in going to the stars or beyond, but I watch Star Trek to get my buzz as that is much simpler (and more realistic)...….someone else doing the hard bit to put you in the picture with all the latest gadget you could not imagine.

Back in the good old days when carbon steel cutting tools were state of the art, I think anyone who suggested that an alloy of various metals sintered together by force and heat would work better would have been shown the door...………..I have to admire the early attempts to bore out cannons and steam engine cylinders to get a better rounder hole etc.

No matter how much contraction you get after cooling by laying consecutive layers of metal dust and melting it together with a laser, the process, like casting, will no doubt allow for that factor...…...secondary handling by machining where necessary is just par for the course.

You couldn't dial up a supplier who casts metal objects from a pattern and order a single part that you created in CAD without a huge cost and time outlay...….......I can admire the technology required without wanting to go down that path.
Ian..

[RCaffin]

You couldn't dial up a supplier who casts metal objects from a pattern and order a single part that you created in CAD without a huge cost and time outlay
Just so. Today there are companies which are happy to 3D print a single metal part at nearly full metal strength for you. They seem to be doing a thriving business.

I have used 'selective laser sintering' myself for a client, but not in metal. It was cheaper and a LOT faster to order another couple of parts that way to continue the research before committing to molds. That was years ago.

Cheers
Roger

[mactec54]

You couldn't dial up a supplier who casts metal objects from a pattern and order a single part that you created in CAD without a huge cost and time outlay
Just so. Today there are companies which are happy to 3D print a single metal part at nearly full metal strength for you. They seem to be doing a thriving business.

I have used 'selective laser sintering' myself for a client, but not in metal. It was cheaper and a LOT faster to order another couple of parts that way to continue the research before committing to molds. That was years ago.

Cheers
Roger

That is the whole idea of metal sintering by 3D printing, it has made it so you can have a ( 1 ) off part, and more of the same if you have deep pockets or good project funding, there are some that have moved it even a step further, and are trying to bring it to the hobbyist level starting at around $100,000.00 for a complete setup, a good video below, even using a mig welder, this is what hobby guys do, they find a different way to do things, that does not cost much to do, this is metal to metal, no after process just machining

The first video, you need to open it shows a mig welder being used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_Dy-2F81DWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyMgOl8sBew