[flatfnder]

Where to go from here? I have a 2005 HAAS VF3-SS-YT which has been treating me well except for one big issue.....surface finish. Any time the cutter makes a change in direction in X or Y it leaves a swirl mark in the bottom surface cut which can measure almost a half a thou deep which makes my parts look like crap. (this is using a 3/16 end mill) My dealer spent some time going thru the parameters which made a small improvement but it is still not great. I was then told I needed a better foundation for the machine to sit on which I didn't buy but I wasn't going to get anymore help until I made this change. I am in need of another machine so I told them to build me a duplicate machine for me and set it up at their shop and cut me a part to show me that the machine is capable of making a good cut on a more solid foundation and then I will buy it and put a new foundation under both machines. They did this for me and sure enough, the new machine cut just as bad as the one I already have. Their next step was to say that a VM will leave a great surface finish and that they would change out the ball screws to the finer pitch ones out of a VM but I had them cut my part (which is aluminum by the way) in a new VM and it cut pretty much identical to the VF. I am now being told this is how Haas machines cut and if I want better surface finish I need to buy a high end machine.

My Haas dealer sells Toyoda's and wants me to buy an AF1000 but I don't know anything about them. They are going to have my part cut on one in the next couple weeks so that I can see the surface finish which I hope turns out good. Does anyone have any experience with the new Toyoda vertical mills, I guess they are built by Awea out of Tiawan.

Oh yeah, I am comparing the surface finish to a mid 90's vertical Okuma and two mid 80's horizontal Hitachi Seiki's that I own. The sales guy who sold me the Haas said it would cut better than any of my current machines and I made the mistake of not having a test piece cut first before the purchase.

[DEAN]

What did the people from HAAS factory have to say in response to your problem and your HFO's evaluation, diagnosis and suggested treatment?

[flatfnder]

My part was sent to the HAAS factory and I spoke on the phone with a tech from there who had me changing parameters on my machine which made some minor changes to the surface finish but it was still not good. After that I was told they where working on a fix......which then became that my problem was not a good enough foundation for the machine to sit on. I was also being reminded that this wasn't a high end machine and that my expectations where too high.

That was when I had the second machine built and set up/run on a solid foundation at my HFO only to find it cut the same as my first machine.

[DEAN]

Please post a photo of the surface finish you are talking about.

[flatfnder]

Hopefully this works. Here are two pictures of the same cut. One is straight out of the machine and one I marred the surface with a scotch pad so you can see how deep the swirl mark is. If I run an indicator over the surface if moves between a quarter and half a thou.

This cut was using a carbide 3/16 dia endmill and a .005 depth of cut. RPM and feed rate don't make much of a difference if any.

[DEAN]

Yikes. That is ugly. There is no way that is "normal". There is a lot more going on here than just "thats they way they cut". Hopefully someone with more evaluation experience will ring in. Even the cuts before the direction change look to have a poor surface finish. Its more like the cutter is dragging along and not fully cutting. With the direction change the cutter has more time to cut to actual depth...

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Just a thought, has anybody checked for spindle end-play? Unlikely but possible.

[HAILINHAAS]

Does your machine have the HSM option? I have to ask, more than likely you have it.

[SORCHEROR]

let me ask you,what type of floor is this sitting on,i had a simialr problem long time ago on a wooden floor,the whole machine would jump with a quick change of direction,old factory building,hopefully you have a concrete floor thats at least 6 inches thick,i dont think its the spindle,if it was the direction change wouldnt change the cut if spinlde was it,would always cut bad with the spindle,so it must be in the movement of the axis,or the foundation,only two possibilites,you said you have two machines doing this?and one that doesnt,how close are the machines?same type of floor,diff?just trying to get more info
steve

[SORCHEROR]

does it seem to be more with one axis change or both?i wonder if you have something loose or bad bearing in one of the screws

[SORCHEROR]

i didnt see the post where they tried it on a more solid foundation,guess thats not it,im surprised since my hass is 2 1/2 years old now and has always cut great for me,good luck on finding a solution

[HuFlungDung]

Man, that surface finish looks gross, kind of what happens after you burn the end off a tool but keep on using it anyway

Will the thing cut a nice slot sidewall (profile all around) and to an accurate width?

If the pullstud is correct, and the tool is properly retained, I would wonder if the Z axis has some kind of 'jitter' to it, such that it is not remaining stationary during the cut. Usually this would likely be a servo tuning issue, rather than a mechanical one.

[ImanCarrot]

That looks bad. Just a thought- is the tool bit straight? roll it on a surface table and see if it's bent.

I'd also stick a straight piece of rod in the collet and clock the side of it to see if the collet is actualy straight.

[Kool Parts]

HuFlungDung,
That's exactly what I thought...burnt up tooling. Everybody is giving solutions to the problem...but the post reads 3 different machines...with at least 1 of them brand new....and 2 different locations.
And to make it worse .005 deep in Alum....
I would bet that no one on that reads here regularly could replicate that with any machine in decent shape, or new, new tooling, decent coolant
That cut looks like about 5 different problems at the same time...

[DEAN]

flatfnder, You must not be talking to the right people at HAAS factory and getting the run around from your HFO. I find it outrageous, bordering on crazy that someone at HAAS factory would tell you that your expectations are too high with that finish as an example.
Honestly, if that was just "the way a HAAS cuts" they wouldn't be selling over 10,000 machines a year.
My little desktop $2k MAXNC mill I use primarily for engraving does a better job in aluminum than that. At that DOC too!!

[Geof]

I agree with Dean. The sample below was done on a Haas GR510 with the extended Z axis. Left to right the conditions were:

10000rpm, 100ipm.

10000rpm 100ipm Single Blocking

15000rpm, 200ipm.

5000rpm, 50ipm.

[JPMach]

I know this is a really stupid question, but it has to be asked.

Are you running the same code on the Haas and the Okuma? If not is there a small glitch in the code that might set the Z down a bit and then back up?

I had to ask as everyone else is looking at the mechanical and electrical side of things, just thought I would throw another angle in the mix. It should have been the first thing any of the techs looked at but you never know these days.

I agree that is not just how a Haas cuts. Granted there are machines out there that are much better than Haas, the Haas should still cut better than that.

One other thing just out of curiousity. With power to the machine open the back cabinet. Is the Phase check light lit. The stupid power company every once in a great while has been known to switch phases when fixing storm damage and such. From what a tech told me once the machine will still run and everything but would probably have interpolating problems.

My $.02 for what its worth.
JP

[Loading]

You said the HFO used the same program as you were using?

I'd guess they used different tooling/different coolant.

Can you post the program? Mabye someone else in this thread can try it out.

[flatfnder]

Wow, thanks for all the responses.

Here is a picture of a side cut using a 5/8 endmill, full depth cut in 3/4 aluminum at 60 ipm and RPM 5600 removing .015 inches of material. Side cuts always seem to be good, just bottom surface.

When my HFO ran the new machine on a solid foundation at their location I gave them a wireframe of my part and they programed it themselves. I will hopefully get my hands on a sample part cut on the new machine late today.

I will get back later today or tomorrow morning to respond with more, super busy today.

[Loading]

Wow, thanks for all the responses.

Here is a picture of a side cut using a 5/8 endmill, full depth cut in 3/4 aluminum at 60 ipm and RPM 5600 removing .015 inches of material. Side cuts always seem to be good, just bottom surface.

When my HFO ran the new machine on a solid foundation at their location I gave them a wireframe of my part and they programed it themselves. I will hopefully get my hands on a sample part cut on the new machine late today.

I will get back later today or tomorrow morning to respond with more, super busy today.

Ahh, this is a long shot, but the only thing I can think of.

Possibility of the wireframe having small 'dips' in it. And the reason they'd show on the Haas, and not the other machines is a different post file?

Not sure if you have tried this, but try hand coding a "V" give it a try, and post the code here, then we can fully discount the program.