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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?
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  1. #1
    Neuer Benutzer
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    Feb 2013
    Posts
    54

    24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Hi,

    I’ve just wired up a spindle and 2.2kw air cooled spindle. I’ve programmed in a few perimeters into the inverter to set the 400hz frequency etc. With no load its current top rpm is 18,200, where as it rated for 24,000rpm?! What setting should I be looking at programming to set up this particular inverter correctly?

    Obviously life would have been a lot easier if i’d bought a Huanyang with all the posting about the set up of those but it wouldn’t fit the enclosure

    Heres a couple of the scans from the XSY-AT1 manual although this list below might be more useful.


    P00 Max voltage
    P01 Reference frequency
    P02 Intermediate voltage
    P03 Intermediate frequency
    P04 Min voltage
    P05 Min frequency
    P06 Max operating
    P07 Min operating
    P08 password
    P09 password
    P10 working frequency
    P11 start stop

    Additional to this will be programming 2 poles, 6amp motor rating and rpm if I can find the program number!


    Spec:

    Inverter
    XSY-AT1
    Model: AT1-2200X
    Ver: A03
    Power:2.2KW
    Rated Current:12A
    Input:1PH AC 220V 50HZ/60HZ
    Capacity:8.0KVA(2.2KW/3HP)
    Output:3PH

    Spindle
    Power: 2.2kw air cooled
    ?Voltage: 220VAC
    ?Current: 6A
    ?Frequency: 400 Hz
    ?Speed: 24000 rpm


    Attachment 403788
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  2. #2
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    Jan 2005
    Posts
    10683

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by marbles View Post
    Hi,

    I’ve just wired up a spindle and 2.2kw air cooled spindle. I’ve programmed in a few perimeters into the inverter to set the 400hz frequency etc. With no load its current top rpm is 18,200, where as it rated for 24,000rpm?! What setting should I be looking at programming to set up this particular inverter correctly?

    Obviously life would have been a lot easier if i’d bought a Huanyang with all the posting about the set up of those but it wouldn’t fit the enclosure

    Heres a couple of the scans from the XSY-AT1 manual although this list below might be more useful.


    P00 Max voltage
    P01 Reference frequency
    P02 Intermediate voltage
    P03 Intermediate frequency
    P04 Min voltage
    P05 Min frequency
    P06 Max operating
    P07 Min operating
    P08 password
    P09 password
    P10 working frequency
    P11 start stop

    Additional to this will be programming 2 poles, 6amp motor rating and rpm if I can find the program number!


    Spec:

    Inverter
    XSY-AT1
    Model: AT1-2200X
    Ver: A03
    Power:2.2KW
    Rated Current:12A
    Input:1PH AC 220V 50HZ/60HZ
    Capacity:8.0KVA(2.2KW/3HP)
    Output:3PH

    Spindle
    Power: 2.2kw air cooled
    ?Voltage: 220VAC
    ?Current: 6A
    ?Frequency: 400 Hz
    ?Speed: 24000 rpm


    Attachment 403788
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	file- 2.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	150.3 KB 
ID:	403790
    You should not be running it unless you have all the basic Parameters set you can smoke them in a flash with the incorrect Parameter's set

    This will get you started, but must set as many of the motor spec's as you can, if you can't find them, then some VFD Drives are auto ranging and will set them what it thinks it is driving the snips of the manual are not very clear

    P00=220
    P01=400
    P02=15
    P03=15
    P04=8
    P05=20
    P05=100
    P06=400
    P07=100
    P10=400
    Acceleration start at 10 and adjust
    Deceleration start at 10 and adjust
    Mactec54

  3. #3
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    Nov 2013
    Posts
    429

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Hi,
    there is a small point you need to be aware of......your spindle is an asynchronous motor.

    What that means is that if your VFD is producing voltage at 400Hz, the rotating magnetic field in motor is rotating at 400 revolutions per second or 24000
    revolutions per minute. The rotor will not quite do the same speed, I would expect something like 23500 rpm at no load and about 23000 at full load.
    The slight difference in frequency is a fundamental part of how induction (asynchronous ) motors work and is called slip.

    Craig

  4. #4
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    Jan 2005
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    10683

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    there is a small point you need to be aware of......your spindle is an asynchronous motor.

    What that means is that if your VFD is producing voltage at 400Hz, the rotating magnetic field in motor is rotating at 400 revolutions per second or 24000
    revolutions per minute. The rotor will not quite do the same speed, I would expect something like 23500 rpm at no load and about 23000 at full load.
    The slight difference in frequency is a fundamental part of how induction (asynchronous ) motors work and is called slip.

    Craig
    Most reach the full 24,000 RPM or very close to it and some go above the 24,000RPM
    Mactec54

  5. #5
    Neuer Benutzer
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    54

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Thanks for the info. I'll check tomorrow against what I have input already when in the workshop. These are certainly different from the Huanyang.

    P10 I have incorrectly specified, it is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal, therefore cannot be 400. Apologies.
    P11 similarly is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal .

    No idea where to find the acceleration or deceleration program settings ha

  6. #6
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    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by marbles View Post
    Thanks for the info. I'll check tomorrow against what I have input already when in the workshop. These are certainly different from the Huanyang.

    P10 I have incorrectly specified, it is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal, therefore cannot be 400. Apologies.
    P11 similarly is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal .

    No idea where to find the acceleration or deceleration program settings ha
    P10 yes I had a closer look it is hard to see in your photos it looks like it could be 0 1 2 3 Etc depending on how you want to control the VFD if it was a frequency setting it would be 400

    It may not have acceleration or deceleration for a normal 50Hz 60Hz motor it would not matter, for your spindle it does matter but still may not have it most VFD Drives do have it though

    Look at P034 for acceleration and P042 for deceleration they have some strange terminology this could be it I can't read your manual pages very well

    Looks like you are ok for the Pole count it is 2 by default
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    10683

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by marbles View Post
    Thanks for the info. I'll check tomorrow against what I have input already when in the workshop. These are certainly different from the Huanyang.

    P10 I have incorrectly specified, it is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal, therefore cannot be 400. Apologies.
    P11 similarly is for selecting the panel or external analogue signal .

    No idea where to find the acceleration or deceleration program settings ha
    I Have some more Parameters and some changes, I found I had a manual for your VFD, these are different from the first Parameters I Posted

    AT1-2200XSY

    P00=220

    P01=400

    P03=25 Default set to 15 and adjust

    P04=220

    P05=100

    P06=400

    P07=100

    P10=1 Default Potentiometer control ( 2 ) External Control

    P011=0 Default Key Board Control ( 1 ) External Control

    P025=0 2Pole

    P034=25 Default start at 12 and adjust Acceleration

    P042=25 Default start at 12 and adjust Deceleration

    P078= Max Amp Overload set to suit your spindle

    P069=220/240 Over Voltage
    Mactec54

  8. #8
    Neuer Benutzer
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    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    I Have some more Parameters and some changes, I found I had a manual for your VFD, these are different from the first Parameters I Posted

    AT1-2200XSY

    P00=220

    P01=400

    P03=25 Default set to 15 and adjust

    P04=220

    P05=100

    P06=400

    P07=100

    P10=1 Default Potentiometer control ( 2 ) External Control

    P011=0 Default Key Board Control ( 1 ) External Control

    P025=0 2Pole

    P034=25 Default start at 12 and adjust Acceleration

    P042=25 Default start at 12 and adjust Deceleration

    P078= Max Amp Overload set to suit your spindle

    P069=220/240 Over Voltage
    Great stuff! I'll try these out today and report back

  9. #9
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    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Hi,

    Most reach the full 24,000 RPM or very close to it and some go above the 24,000RPM
    You really want to grab one of those ones that's goes faster than 24000 rpm, that's super synchronous, or an induction generator. If you can get a induction motor
    to generate just by powering it up you could solve the worlds energy woes....for free!!!

    Craig

  10. #10
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    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    You really want to grab one of those ones that's goes faster than 24000 rpm, that's super synchronous, or an induction generator. If you can get a induction motor
    to generate just by powering it up you could solve the worlds energy woes....for free!!!

    Craig
    I guess you no understanding what you are talking about, even the most basic VFD Drives have slip compensation try to under stand what is being talked about before you post with ridiculous replies

    If someone has a need for a faster spindle why not they come in all speed ranges 6,000 12,000 18,000 24,000 30,000 40,000 60,000 160.0000 and they all can reach there programed speed

    Slip compensation
    The load-dependent difference between the reference speed and the actual speed of the 3-phase motor is referred to as the slip. This dependency can be compensated by the current measurement in the output phases of the variable frequency drive.


    The activation of Operation Mode for the slip compensation enables as speed control without feedback. The stator frequency and speed are corrected depending on the VFD load.
    The variable frequency drive slip compensation is activated during the first run or startup. The Stator Resistance is required to ensure a correct function and is measured during startup of a new motor when first commissioning.
    If no guided commissioning is executed, the slip compensation can be activated manually. In these cases, enter the VFD value for the Stator Resistance manually according to the motor data sheet.

    The variable frequency drive control behavior of the slip compensation can only be optimized via the parameters in the case of specific applications. The VFD parameter Amplification determines the correction of the speed and the effect of the slip compensation proportionally to the change of load. Parameter Max. Slip Ramp defines the maximum frequency change per second in order to avoid an overload in the case of a load change.
    The VFD parameter Frequency Lower Limit determines the frequency as from which the slip compensation becomes active.

    No Voodoo Required
    Mactec54

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    2

    Re: 24000rpm rated spindle but only getting approx 18200rpm?

    Even though this thread has not much to do with my setup, a 1.5hp 720 rpm 6 pole 415V original motor in a 1940 Adcock & Shipley Model 1 mill, it helped me set up my AT4, the motor drives the horizontal cutting shaft and table motion.

    So thanks to all the contributors.

    I had been attempting to run the motor on a 240V VFD set to 29hz but at higher cutter shaft revs settings the motor would not start, there is the cutting shaft and the intermediate shaft to drive and both are substantial hunks of metal. I got it to run at intermediate revs by slowing the acceleration and using the VFD initial torque boost function. I expected this as A&S went to a 2hp motor later on. 6 pole 2hp motors are thin on the ground so I looked for another solution.

    So I went to an AT4 which is 220v single phase input and 380v 3 phase output version of the AT1. On initial setup I set the amps limit P78 to 3A to be close to the 2.9A on the motor plate and at lower shaft revs it worked well, drawing only 2.2A at the lowest revs. But at the highest revs it was pulling 5.5A before cutting out with Err-6 over current, extending the P24 overload delay did not work as the amps stayed at 5.5A even with the shaft at full revs ie no longer accelerating.

    The solution was 2 fold, the latest info sheet sent with the VFD omits any mention of P025 but thanks to this thread I set it to 6 pole, this drew the amps down to 4.5A.

    Next I went into P034 and dropped the acceleration from 10hz/s to 2hz/s, the motor now only draws 3.2A at full speed and stays there even after engaging table feed. The extended acceleration time does not bother me so happy to leave it there. As the motor is from 1940 is is substantially built compared to modern motors, 10% higher on the amps should be no issue.

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