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  1. #97

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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Sounds like it would work, I still think mounting the rails to a piece of flat bar that you have some either sloted or oversized holes that is mounted to the top of the frame tube would be a better option. Wouldn't be much more much more work since the way you want to do it you are drilling two holes anyway for the through hole and I guarantee you will have a tough time getting the top hole to line up with the bottom hole since the drill bit will walk on you since you will be drilling it by hand. If you use a piece of flatbar you can drill it with a drill press and tap it off the machine, also by making the holes that you will bolt to the top of the square tube oversized/sloted if you have some tapped holes on the tube a little bit off you will have plenty of adjustment with the rails mounted to the flat bar to still get the rails parallel to one another. Hopefully this makes sense, if not I can draw something up for you when I get some time.

    I'm thinking about doing the same thing but also adding set screws so I can level the rails with out the need for shiming, with doing it this way you can get it parallel and level in x and z with out the need for shiming material just a hex key wrench. I'm confident it will be better than what we currently have going on with these machines lol. Look at the glass as being half full and that anything you do will be a improvement over it's current state, even using it as a engine stand if you choose to.

  2. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Sounds like it would work, I still think mounting the rails to a piece of flat bar that you have some either sloted or oversized holes that is mounted to the top of the frame tube would be a better option. Wouldn't be much more much more work since the way you want to do it you are drilling two holes anyway for the through hole and I guarantee you will have a tough time getting the top hole to line up with the bottom hole since the drill bit will walk on you since you will be drilling it by hand. If you use a piece of flatbar you can drill it with a drill press and tap it off the machine, also by making the holes that you will bolt to the top of the square tube oversized/sloted if you have some tapped holes on the tube a little bit off you will have plenty of adjustment with the rails mounted to the flat bar to still get the rails parallel to one another. Hopefully this makes sense, if not I can draw something up for you when I get some time.

    I'm thinking about doing the same thing but also adding set screws so I can level the rails with out the need for shiming, with doing it this way you can get it parallel and level in x and z with out the need for shiming material just a hex key wrench. I'm confident it will be better than what we currently have going on with these machines lol. Look at the glass as being half full and that anything you do will be a improvement over it's current state, even using it as a engine stand if you choose to.
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.

  3. #99
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    Apr 2016
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    798

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    Yes, I believe he can. The motors should work on any machine using the same size NEMAs. Ditto for the controller. Even the motor drives units should work with an Avid machine, but probably not with another make. Might be able to make them work with another make with modifications, but hard to tell in a vacuum.

    Gary

  4. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.
    Yes I would put them on both sides, and I was thinking about the same potential problem of have some small gap's.

    My thoughts are the square tube is hollow anyway so I'm thinking that if the flat bar is 0.375" thick, thicker than the machine tube and you have enough bolt's attaching it to the tube and mount the set screws close to the linear rail that it wouldn't be able to flex and would be as rigid or even more rigid than what is currently going on.

    Also if you found once mounted and leveled that there was a big gap you could always try to inject some epoxy under the flat bar, or use some slow setting epoxy and lay it down prior to installing the flat bar. I personally don't like the epoxy idea since it would be a mess and have potential for messing everything up if it set up to fast or you didn't get it leveled and it set up.

    To me it would have to be pumped in after everything was perfect and you knew nothing needed further adjustments, I haven't looked for any material that could maybe be used and I also don't know how much adjustment will be needed and how much of a gap you will have.

    So it's kinda something that I would have to to try and see if there would be any issues. It seems like it would work but obviously I haven't done it yet so I'm not 100% sure since I haven't tried it yet.

    Hopefully it makes sense and if it doesn't like I said before I can do a drawing when I get some free time.

  5. #101
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.
    You would want to use plates with leveling screws on both sides. I believe that would be an easier solution than trying to make one side match the unmodified other side. Also, you have the dishing in the frame tubing to deal with. Leveling plates on both sides would take care of the dishing issue on both sides.

    I'd go with what's called a "dog point" set screw for leveling. It has a flat bottom, which won't dig in over time. I've also commented before about using a filler under the plates to avoid deflection. Once the rails are where you want them, you inject the specialized epoxy under the plates. To make the plates removable, you can coat the screws and bottom side of the plate with a release agent. It would be a fussy process. You would probably want to use some sort of machine leveling epoxy grout. You might also be able to make up a suitable epoxy with something like a West System product and fillers, which would probably be a whole lot cheaper (as if any epoxy is cheap ). I'd do a lot of experimenting to make sure I could confidently pull it off.

    Keep in mind that this solution is nothing like trying to level the frame with epoxy. From what I can tell, few, if any, have succeeded in the effort. Just looking at the way the epoxy goes down looks like a recipe for failure. I briefly considered it for the Saturn I sent back, but pretty quickly discarded it. I question the wisdom of trying to use epoxy as a mounting surface for linear rails in any event. I would worry that over time the epoxy might distort. With the above-proposed method, the set screws are doing the heavy lifting. The epoxy is only used in a 'supporting role', so to speak.

    One other thing to think about. when using set screw for leveling and fixing screws to hold everything in place. If the fixing screws aren't tight enough, the plate will move. If too tight, the plate can distort (unless you were to use for set screws at each fixing screw). Striking the right balance could be a tricky proposition. Hopefully, an epoxy filler would mitigate or eliminate the potential problem.

    Gary

  6. #102
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Yes I would put them on both sides, and I was thinking about the same potential problem of have some small gap's.

    My thoughts are the square tube is hollow anyway so I'm thinking that if the flat bar is 0.375" thick, thicker than the machine tube and you have enough bolt's attaching it to the tube and mount the set screws close to the linear rail that it wouldn't be able to flex and would be as rigid or even more rigid than what is currently going on.

    Also if you found once mounted and leveled that there was a big gap you could always try to inject some epoxy under the flat bar, or use some slow setting epoxy and lay it down prior to installing the flat bar. I personally don't like the epoxy idea since it would be a mess and have potential for messing everything up if it set up to fast or you didn't get it leveled and it set up.

    To me it would have to be pumped in after everything was perfect and you knew nothing needed further adjustments, I haven't looked for any material that could maybe be used and I also don't know how much adjustment will be needed and how much of a gap you will have.

    So it's kinda something that I would have to to try and see if there would be any issues. It seems like it would work but obviously I haven't done it yet so I'm not 100% sure since I haven't tried it yet.

    Hopefully it makes sense and if it doesn't like I said before I can do a drawing when I get some free time.

    Dan, it looks like we are on the same general track. You and I were independently working on a similar reply.

    Look up machine setting epoxy grout. It is used to level heavy machinery. Probably not available in small quantities, though. That's why something like West System epoxy with a filler came to mind.

    As far as injecting is concerned, it could be done in sections. I've seen some instructions for injecting, but cannot find them right now. It just amounts to taping up the edges and leaving some openings at the top of the edges for injecting. Fortunately, since the set screws are pulling the laboring oar for support, a less than perfect job would probably still be adequate. I'd sure want to do a lot of practicing with material off the machine before trying for real

    Gary

  7. #103

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    3

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I have not purchased a machine from Nathan, but I have tried to contact him via voice and email messaging 3 or 4 times. No response. For someone to run a business like this is pathetic I don't care if he does work a full time job. I recommend looking into another manufacture before I would purchase anything from a company that takes your money and does not return inquiries.

  8. #104
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    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.

  9. #105

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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.
    I think for the 1500 take the machine apart and start calling around to local shops and have a good shop look into fixing the frame or if it's more cost-effective weld you up a new one and have the surfaces machined. If you don't have anyone you know is capable, then I would suggest doing what GME did and buy extrusion and basically duplicate the steel frame out of extrusion. If you went the extrusion route you could use the router as is to machine all the mounting plates, and just swap the parts over after you get the new frame done. I think you will be pretty disappointed with the kit you posted it doesn't look very robust and you might be going down another rabbit hole.

    Or if you can sell the saturn as a project or do some of the things we suggested to get it reliable and recoup a decent amount of your investment, you might want to look at David's Bragga machine he's selling. They look very well built and he seems to be a perfectionist so I personally would take a chance on buying one if I didn't have a Saturn.

    Just my thoughts on what I personally would do if I wasn't able to get my machine up and running reliably, fortunately my frame wasn't as bad as yours and Gary's were. Mines not perfect yet but at least it's functional after a lot of work and does a really good job so far, as for longevity goes ask me a year from now.

    Dan

  10. #106
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.

    Way too lightweight for my taste. About the only things to transfer are your steppers (assuming you have NEMA 23s). NEMA 34s are way too much for a machine like you linked to. Also note that the machine uses acme screws, instead of ball screws. Changing over to ballscrews downstream might be a problem. The base unit is listed as the 500, which I take to be 500mm, or just under 20 inches. Pretty small. If you were to put a spindle on that gantry, I'll bet you would see some interesting deflection. No recommendation here. :nono:

    Gary

  11. #107
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    Sep 2005
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    1638

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.
    So is Nate still selling machines? It would be interesting if someone lives close to that business could check.

    As far as measurements go, as long as the linear rails are parallel to each and level across the bed with one another thats all that is needed. You will never get an aluminum extrusion frame as solid as a welded one. The aluminum is not suppose to be a good base for the rails, unless its been ground.

    I think there has been much discussion on here already on how you can make the frame better.... so far nothing has been done.

    If you are serious get a real machinist to look at your frame, yes pay him for his time and have him quote the repairs needed. Strip the frame down and let him do the welding and grinding in his shop.

    Or strip the frame down and take to a shop that can do the repairs. Thats the only way its going to be done right.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  12. #108
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    Apr 2010
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    I realize I have asked for a lot of input and not done anything about it yet. I have a 2 yr old and a 4 yr old and work about 70 hours a week. There is not much time left over to tinker. I don't know anyone that could help with trueing the frame and machining it and honestly sounds super expensive. I suppose I could have someone come out to look at it but I am leaning towards just building a new frame. The next option after I check a few other things out on the machine would be just to cut it in half and then make some joining plates, square and bolt back together.

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