[NinerSevenTango]

I go through another work - eat - sleep cycle, and come back here to find that once again Mariss has made my argument for me.

It is nihilism - hatred for mankind -- that informs such tripe. And, they are already getting their way, now that those with more wisdom than anyone else have succeeded at diverting our food to fuel production. People are starving. And as I stated in an earlier post, that is fine with the elites, except perhaps not fast enough. Some of them even advocate genocide through war.

Not surprisingly, to harbor such a hatred of humans requires that one be impervious to evidence and reason. That's why the evidence is ignored and the mantra is repeated over and over.

If my valuation of human life and the freedom it requires above all other values makes me blind, then so be it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if Hitler called me blind, either.

--97T--

As I type this I am doing my due diligence on the activities of my enemies by listening to NPR. Even the American communists are becoming concerned about starvation worldwide and the effects of the food shortage on local populations. Food prices have tripled lately, and today's feature is about how most of the major food brands are switching to cheaper ingredients, adding more water, substituting flavor enhancers for sugar, and cutting portion size in order to try to minimize the impact on their operations. Eventually they will be unable to avoid raising prices to the consumer. All elitists are advised to tighten security until their plan comes to fruition. Food riots have a way of turning ugly.

[Mazaholic]

There are other reasons for the food shortage besides fuel,some of them are minor,but a reason none the less.
There is a town not far from me that has a farm,that farm supplies food and shelter for the homeless,all that is asked is that the people help with the crops and livestock.
Not far from there is a homeless shelter,free food,bed,some clothes..All that is asked is that you have a turn with the preparation of meals.

Which one do you think gets the most homeless people?

[Geof]

.....It is obscene to talk of humans as if they were a swarm of cockroaches....Mariss

I have also made the statement that the population of the our globe is too large to be sustained when current stocks of abundant low cost (easily extractable) fossil fuels are depleted. Others have taken this to mean I support measures to reduce the population; I do not of course. Mother nature will do this when the time becomes necessary. It has happened to other, localized, societies; Easter Island is one example. the Greenland Colonies of the Vikings and Iceland during the Little Ice Age, the Anasazi. To Mother Nature we are no more and no less significant than a swarm of cockroaches.

[ImanCarrot]

I got to agree that population growth is unsustainable. I do not advocate killing people though and I honestly don't think Handle was saying so either. Population control can be managed by reducing the incentive to have children. China does it and has for a while.

I think the idea that mother nature will "naturaly" find a way to cope with the global expansion in population is perfectly true.

Oh, by the way. I never had children purely and totaly because I basically could not afford to do so. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have kids, it's a basic human instinct- my ex had a daughter who I loved as my own and my current girlfriend has a grown up son who's gonna be an electrician- it's great to pass my knowledge on to him and my nephews regularly ask me for help with their degree level maths- it's great to see the "ahh! that's how you do it" when you can explain something to them.

Perhaps I should have said "sod it" and had kids anyway, but there was just no way i could have afforded it... and I live in the UK and have a not bad job. How people on less of a wage do it I struggle to understand.

Perhaps mother nature started with folk like me who will not breed if they cannot support their children on their own...

[NinerSevenTango]

There are other reasons for the food shortage besides fuel,some of them are minor,but a reason none the less.

It's wizardry to try to come up with exact proportions, but there is no question that debasement of the currency has caused a run on commodities as people try to protect their savings, since cash alone is a losing proposition. The artificially induced pressure on the food supply exacerbates the situation. And it takes time for the numbers to show up. Businesses drain their savings trying to stay competitive -- they can't raise prices until their competitors do. Then, once the barrier is broken, price increases appear in a rush. My own personal opinion is that we haven't seen the full effects of what has already been done yet. When food processors hunker down into survival mode, we are going to get slammed.

There is a town not far from me that has a farm,that farm supplies food and shelter for the homeless,all that is asked is that the people help with the crops and livestock.
Not far from there is a homeless shelter,free food,bed,some clothes..All that is asked is that you have a turn with the preparation of meals.

Which one do you think gets the most homeless people?

Heh. I know which one I would gravitate to if I were in dire straits. I'd like to find some way to say thanks to that farmer. Taxation has destroyed the ability and the motive for most charitable activity in this, the most generous society in the history of mankind. Now, the government is seen as charitable while wealth producers like that farmer are forced to pay their fair share at gunpoint.

--97T--

[NinerSevenTango]

To Mother Nature we are no more and no less significant than a swarm of cockroaches.

Mother Nature is significant to me (and humankind). Not the other way around. That's anthropomorphizing. Not having a means of consciousness, Mother Nature cannot care. I know, this is your point restated. But significance presupposes a consciousness to judge whether something matters or not, which is a value judgement. I make the distinction because the only significance in this context is to us, and it consists of the relation of the state of nature to our ability to survive and thrive. So it is only a human that can make the value judgement of humans being equivalent to cockroaches. It's a question of metaphysics, and I reject a metaphysics that places the value of inanimate objects or insects as superior or equal to my own life, or that imputes consciousness to an inanimate entity.

Naturally, anyone is free to judge differently, as long as their judgement doesn't result in them putting a gun to my belly.

Someday the sun will burn out, and then there will be no significance. Until then, while I am alive, I will consider my life and the lives of other humans as the standard of value.

I hope things are going well for you, Geof.

--97T--

[NinerSevenTango]

I got to agree that population growth is unsustainable. I do not advocate killing people though and I honestly don't think Handle was saying so either. Population control can be managed by reducing the incentive to have children. China does it and has for a while.

I think the idea that mother nature will "naturaly" find a way to cope with the global expansion in population is perfectly true.

Oh, by the way. I never had children purely and totaly because I basically could not afford to do so. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have kids, it's a basic human instinct- my ex had a daughter who I loved as my own and my current girlfriend has a grown up son who's gonna be an electrician- it's great to pass my knowledge on to him and my nephews regularly ask me for help with their degree level maths- it's great to see the "ahh! that's how you do it" when you can explain something to them.

Perhaps I should have said "sod it" and had kids anyway, but there was just no way i could have afforded it... and I live in the UK and have a not bad job. How people on less of a wage do it I struggle to understand.

Perhaps mother nature started with folk like me who will not breed if they cannot support their children on their own...

I'm pretty sure that demographics show that the more successful people are, the less they procreate. The reasons for that are already the subject for a number of books.

But the joy we get from helping others to succeed is at odds with the impulse to reduce population. Why help them succeed to allow them to reproduce, if they are one of the 'too many'? We are wired to care for at least some other people in our lives. It becomes morally problematic when those who must be 'reduced' must always be some of 'those other people'.

China's incentives are pretty horrific, and result in infanticide and crippling discrimination against couples that have too many children. It deserves nothing but denunciation and opposition.


--97T--

[jhowelb]

I got to agree that population growth is unsustainable. I do not advocate killing people though and I honestly don't think Handle was saying so either. Population control can be managed by reducing the incentive to have children. China does it and has for a while......

China hasn't reduced the incentive, they have installed disincentives! Forced sterilization, confiscation of property, public floggings and executions. Babies taken by force from their mothers arms and left in huts on dirt floors to starve, succumb to vermin or exposure!

Not so much different from "willie wanker's" solution. To call it less than it is happens to be no different than tacit permission and participation. THIS IS MASS MURDER! A crime against humanity no different than Hitler's "solution"!

Many posts back I made an offer to nominate for a Darwin Award anyone willing to take the "exit" in support of population reduction.

There have been no takers, most notably by his absence is "willie-wanker"!

[Geof]

[QUOTE=NinerSevenTango;450061.....So it is only a human that can make the value judgement of humans being equivalent to cockroaches. It's a question of metaphysics, and I reject a metaphysics....--97T--[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't know I was being metaphysical, that is a new one to add the the string of descriptors applied to me by different people.

[ImanCarrot]

[quote]Why help them succeed to allow them to reproduce.[Quote]

I think it's inbuilt into human nature to help others... basicaly because you beleive that they will help you or yours if needed. I do, however, recall that some humans and indeed primates do not help or reciprocate help- I think it was in New Scientist or Scintific America- they called it the "selfish gene". Basicaly, if I remember right, they rely on the group helping them, but do not give anything back which if unnoticed gives them an advantage in the long run. I'll have a look and see if I can find anything- it was quite interesting, I think the experiment involved monitoring groups of primates and their grooming habits and sociopaths or something.

Many posts back I made an offer to nominate for a Darwin Award anyone willing to take the "exit" in support of population reduction.

Can I at least have a "Notable Mention" for although I've not topped meself, I have chosen not to breed? Now, something made me make that decision which goes against human nature and most of the animal kingdom's nature too... Gimme a Notable mention

[Geof]

...

I think it's inbuilt into human nature to help others... basicaly because you beleive that they will help you or yours if needed. I do, however, recall that some humans and indeed primates do not help or reciprocate help- I think it was in New Scientist or Scintific America- they called it the "selfish gene". Basicaly, if I remember right, they rely on the group helping them, but do not give anything back which if unnoticed gives them an advantage in the long run.

New Scientist, but save your time looking, this group is well represented in this discussion.

[jhowelb]

...Can I at least have a "Notable Mention" for although I've not topped meself, I have chosen not to breed? Now, something made me make that decision which goes against human nature and most of the animal kingdom's nature too... Gimme a Notable mention

No, the jury is still out on the "reproduction" issue! There is a subcommittee considering the effect of ulterior motives on eligibility. There is concern about not wanting to share with off spring (even one's own) and how that relates to the subject below!(wedge)(flame2)

.......they called it the "selfish gene".

[Mazaholic]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354677,00.html
world hunger is all about ethanol?

[ImanCarrot]

Ethanol? *perks* it's 2 minutes to home time for me on a Friday so I shall selflessly study the effects of ethanol on hunger in a few minutes when I hit the pub. Wonder if I can get a grant for it...

[fizzissist]

People are produced by a highly motivated but unskilled workforce.

[dynosor]

If there are too many people, I would ask each of them to parade in front of you while you look them in the eye and say, "you die, you die; you the 100th one, you get to live".

In the case of handlewanker it would go more like this:

HW: Are you a battery expert?

1 of n: What do you mean?

HW: Can you engineer better batteries for electric cars?

1 of n: No.

HW: You die! Next...

[handlewanker]

Easy now all you cockroaches, there's only room on the soapbox for one at a time to vent your spleen, however soapboxes have been ordered so that you can all get in on the mass cockroach bashing act.

This will allow you to collectively agree with your childish outbursts, a typical reactionary childish manoeuvre when you can't get your own way, or someone disagrees with you.

For my part I have two children in my family, with ten years between them, and my father had three, two years between the first two and ten years between the last two, (do the sums), I being the eldest.

I was the sole wage earner in my family with my wife staying at home etc.

My mother and father both worked, my father a toolmaker and my mother a retail clothing store employee.

I went to Cristian Brothers College for my education, and one thing they taught you there was the sanctity of life, be it human animal or vegetable.

So you see, all you puffed up soapbox bible bashers with the very best of intentions, but with so very little to show for your achievements, the world is a very beautifull place, pity a bunch of top end primates got too far up themselves and climbed down from the trees to wreak havoc wherever the went.

I don't think I have ever suggested to your tiny festering minds that anyone should ideally get off this mortal coil prematurely, however I DID and still do clearly state that it would have been a solution to do things the way you lot have become accustomed to doing them, (what's so different about that?), and have a jolly good bust up amongst yourselves, which is to your delicate squemish way of thinking, throw a war and the end product would be more room for all etc, just doing the problem solving bit the way you've always done it!

I see on the Yahoo home page news that in the good ol' USof A the Duggar family, from way down in Arkansas have just "celebrated" their "EIGHTEENTH" holy helll, I kid thee not, eighteenth new arrival, and Jim Bob, buggger me dead, has announced proudly that he would be looking forward to many more, God willing!

Do I have to go on, words almost fail me, can't you cockroaches see reason?

The solution to your problems is to start at the beginning and PLAN your life, (very hard for most cockroaches to do), taking into account that the plan must be flexible, but nevertheless coherrent, otherwise you will be like ol' Jim Bob in Arkansas, taking out a mortgage on the family shack to get a few crumbs to put on the table at Christmas time, or Thanks giving whatever, all wrapped in last years cast off Christmas wrapping, heart warming but ludicrously pathetic.

People like Mariss, who bravely kiss their kids on the cheek with a fondness that only a father can feel, filled with the pride of parenthood when it's realised that they are only going to go "over there" and kick arses big time for oil, and he's looking for sympathy for his predicament?

I think if you examine your moral judgement you will find that, as hypocritical as you are, you still cannot see that you are just supporting the FACT that a military solution whereby some members of the cockroaches are going to come home in bodybags while at the same time feeling proud at having caused the same situation "over there".

I don't think a plot in Arlington cemetary is a fair exchange for a wholesome life expectancy, living life as "someone up there" intended, without causing grief to fellow cockroaches.

Perhaps it was the uniform with the shiny buttons that prompted it, or in the case of JH the medals, but at the end of the day I think it was really the braying of trumpets and the clink of all the medals on the old war horse's chests that impressed them.

What prompts you to decide that the taking of another fellow human's life is justified, and for OIL?

"Man who is born of woman has but a short time to live......." remember that and do the best with the time allocated to you.

Our most immediate problem is to create a future that our children and grandchildren can live in without having to continue with "arse kicking" over there somewhere else, so that the machine can rejuvenate itself and remain refreshed.

Moderation in all things is not a bad precept to follow, and taken to it's ultimate conclusion would solve all of your problems.
Ian.

[fizzissist]

Was that the sound of 200 monkeys at a keyboard??

...for the record, Australia sent in some 2000 troops with the invasion force into Iraq, and has at least 900 there now.

And....for the record....Australia has a 'Baby Bonus'...helping to curb over population by paying a $2300 bonus for having a kid.

[ynneb]

Hi Guys, my job as a moderator here is to try and stop flamings as well as personal attacks etc. I am never sure when the line has been crossed, and at what point to step in.

We are all for freedom of speech and great debate, but we also need to be conscious of how we counter debate with an opponent.

All I am asking is that while the topic is emotive, can we take a moment to imaging how our text might be interpreted.

Strictly speaking we are not allowed to denigrate another individual, but we are allowed to refer to what an individual has said and counter argue that. In between there is a gray line. Please walk it carefully and thoughtfully.

[Geof]

...Strictly speaking we are not allowed to denigrate another individual,....

Benny where were you many posts back when jhowelb referrred to me with a comment that I was so full of it I stank.

Methinks you are not apply your standards completely evenly.