[Geof]

I thought this was an interesting artical
http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solen.html
and
http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solrad.html

I read them both, and he sure throws big numbers around, but I was puzzled; here is a figure caption from the /solrad.html link


Figure 1. The distribution of the solar radiation. On average, each square metre of the upper regions of the atmosphere receives 342 watts of solar radiation [W/m2]. The atmosphere absorbs on average 67 W/m2 and reflects 77 W/m2. About 198 W/m2 reaches the Earth's surface, of which 168 W/m2 is absorbed and 30 W/m2 is reflected back to space. The total of the reflected radiation is 107 W/m2, or 31% of the incoming radiation.

The 342 watts per square meter did not agree with my memory so I went looking to see whether my memory was faulty and found this:

http://www.canren.gc.ca/tech_appl/in...aId=5&PgId=121

Available solar energy is often expressed in units of energy per time per unit area, such as watts per square metre (W/m2). The amount of energy available from the sun outside the Earth’s atmosphere is approximately 1367 W/m2; that’s nearly the same as a high power hair drier for every square meter of sunlight! Some of the solar energy is absorbed as it passes through the Earth’s atmosphere. As a result, on a clear day the amount of solar energy available at the Earth’s surface in the direction of the sun is typically 1000 W/m2. At any particular time, the available solar energy is primarily dependent upon how high the sun is in the sky and current cloud conditions.

So I am puzzled by Nielsens' figures.

[Mazaholic]

You Huminiods,

Thats a good one Wanker.
We are surely blessed with the knowledge your species has bestowed upon us.
I suppose the earth is known as third rock.


LOL

[fizzissist]

The solar W/m2 averaged over the globe on an annual basis is generally between (if my memory serves me) between 342-365. That allows for clouds, night, bright sunny days, volcanoes, etc....

Above the atmosphere, over 1300, at the surface at noon on a cloudless day, ~1000.

One estimate gives a 24hr/day/yr planetary avg. value of about 4.2kwh/m2/day, or just about a barrel of oil over a years time.

...btw Geof, sorry to have missed the Quixote ref...too busy reading Italian and Chinese lit....Machiavelli & Sun Tzu...

[NinerSevenTango]

Machiavelli & Sun Tsu .... both good reading.

Anyone else wanting to know about solar energy reaching the surface of the earth, just google insolation. That's with an "o". It is very low where I am at today.

Happy Weekend, everyone!

--97T--

[Geof]

The solar W/m2 averaged over the globe on an annual basis is generally between (if my memory serves me) between 342-365. That allows for clouds, night, bright sunny days, volcanoes, etc....

Ah! Averages. Like in: 'When you have one foot in a block of ice and one foot in a bucket of boiling water, on average you are comfortable.'

[dynosor]

I thought this was an interesting artical
http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solen.html
and
http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solrad.html

If we succeed in capturing this wonderful energy that is currently just heating our planet, won't that result in global cooling? I guess not, if we quickly use rather than store that energy.

[NinerSevenTango]

The current political goal is for stasis -- this means we need to radiate exactly as much heat back out into space as we receive from the sun. If we capture solar energy and use it for manufacturing, a portion that would get radiated back into space will be locked up chemically or mechanically. This will cause global cooling. Then, when the energy is finally released, it will cause global warming.

The only real solution is to deprive you of energy. Or at least tax the snot out of you for using any.

[fizzissist]

Ah! Averages. Like in: 'When you have one foot in a block of ice and one foot in a bucket of boiling water, on average you are comfortable.'

Interesting analogy. I guess then by that reasoning, if I made $12,000 in a month, and my expenses were $12,000, I'd be, on average, broke.

[handlewanker]

Whichever way you calculate it or see it, who passes up a sandwich at mealtimes when that might be the only type of food you're going to get for the rest of your life.

Here's an example of life's expectancies that the humanoids could apply when they calculate their comfort zones.

Back in 1973 in UK we (yes I'm from planet Mudball) had a coal miners strike that practically shut down the power stations across the country, so much so that we had a period of 4 hours of power on for domestic and commercial use each day, try heating a home with that. Lasted for quite a few weeks at the time.

OK if you've got gas heating? still requires a pump and boiler controls to pump the water round the system and oil fired was the same, with only the radiant heater in the lounge to get warm by (outside temps were about 2 deg C in November), pretty sad if you only have electric cooking and heating methods, and coal fires were as rare as rocking horse sh1t.

Some of the people on our housing estate resorted to rigging up a 12 volt lighting set using a car battery that we charged up when we had power on, just like back in 1945.

The point is, if there is going to be a reduction in supply, due, as I have pointed out before, to the over abundence of mouths to feed and supply with all the rubbish that humanoids consider necessary for existence, then you'd better get used to tightening the old belt a notch or two.

The figures noted by Dr Nielsen in the previous post not only show light at the end of the tunnel but a blinding ray of hope that all is not lost, oils aint the staff of life, and coal can be left in the ground.

It all comes down to vested interests, or who has the strongest influence when it comes to exercising political power.

With the best will in the world, all of the learned scientists can propose a revolutionary method to save your skins in the energy crisis, but unless you are prepared to change your political obedience strategy it will all be like farting against the wind.

Money talks, and you can buy a lot of control when you have control over the money, especially when the controls are for "your own benefit".

When you live in a Democratically free economy, that is the majority has absolute power over the minority, (instead of proportional rights), by as little as 1, you can tip the scales by manipulating the numbers to get the no 1 position, and if you don't think this hasn't/isn't being done, read up about JFK's father and his power links with the mafia that enabled a nobody to gain the presidency of the USA, the world almost trembled.

This means that you will be left with whatever is "suitable" for your own good as the powers that be see it, and that comes to the buck raking ability of the system that generates the bucks, and those that get rich from owning the buck producers, EG oil, coal, gas, ethanol, Nuclear fuels, arms for the military (to hold the population in control status etc so that they won't be tempted to consider an alternative form of political control) and various other power sources that generate large amounts of the necessary for those that are either in the right place at the right time or who know someone who knows how to get there.

Your system is corrupt, but that's not too bad if you get something worth while out of it, greasy political hands do have their uses, but when you have a viable alternative proposal that goes against the common edict, then that is when the alarm bells start to ring, midnight oil is burned and the mighty machine called Central Control goes into a state of nervousness, like a tom cat at a veterinary conference, and you have the situation that has the power to divert the mass thinking, guided by experts that they pay to provide the figures to their liking.

I'm sure that there are some very gifted and talented people out there that could charm the feathers off a ducks back without it knowing it, if you made it really worth their while.

As an example of past history, Adolph Hitler charmed a whole population to his way of thinking, but it took Joseph Goebbles to get them to accept it unconditionally.

There are Goebblers in your society that are just too willing to spread the word that they have been paid to sell, and though they are not on a street corner shouting from a soapbox, they neverthe less impress the hell out of some of you, which is all your Central Control needs.

Incidently, try going against the edicts of Central Control and you will soon be walking a thin line, shunned by all from left and right, eager to distance themselves from your heresy.

I strongly adhere to the thought that of all the energy sources, electric power is the best thing since sliced bread, but there are different ways to produce it, so why then do you humanoids not take advantage of a clean user friendly power source that in a couple of billion years, give or take a few, will go out like a dead candle.

Down in the land of OZ, where water is a precious commodity and you can wash your face in it without breaking out in a disease and drink it straight from the tap without getting Gyppo Gut Rot, the Central Control has a water iniative that subsidises the participents who install water tanks on their properties to collect rain water, and this isn't in outlying country areas but inner city and suburban communities.

I think there is also an initiative that subsidise anyone who wishes to install photo voltaic collecters on their roof tops, but I might be wrong on that, still it shows that there is a definite leaning towards self sufficiency.

I might yet get to see electric cars driving up and down the street.

BTW I've just bought an electric scooter, (looks like a small Vespa, folds up to go in the boot of the car, 24 volt), Yeah man, putting your money where your mouth is sounds about right, but I might add to calm the disbelievers, that it was an item that came up at a weekly auction of anything saleable that I go to, and it cost me $40.

Now if they get a small car that runs on electric power I might be tempted to place a bid.
Ian.

[Geof]

.....I think there is also an initiative that subsidise anyone who wishes to install photo voltaic collecters on their roof tops, but I might be wrong on that, still it shows that there is a definite leaning towards self sufficiency.....Ian.

Self sufficiency??? Using something that requires an exceeding complex manufacturing processes which is higly energy dependent. Photo voltaic collectors don't grow on trees. Well not the silicon based type.

[handlewanker]

Ol' Geof, I like your interpretation of "average", always thought it was the "best of the worst or the worst of the best", depending from where you are coming, but there's another, "one foot in the grave and the other on a bar of soap", called average life expectancy of a glue sniffer, BMX rider, rodeo rider, mission to Mars applicant, leaky boat to Australia illegal migrant etc.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

On the subject of solar collectors, there was a big surge in Uk in the 70's, probably still is, of DIY roof solar collectors for getting hot water.

They consisted of alluminium or copper tubing in a half round plastic gutter, contained in a glass topped box, that was lined with alluminium foil, shiny side up.

Various other combinations were used, such as alluminium piping paintad matt black in a box etc, all giving varying degrees of hot water, some at boiling point.

I don't think you can get more "exceedingly complex" than in a Nuclear power plant, and with it's potential to go AWOL is not to be considered "ideal" by any stretch of the imagination.

That Nuclear power can be generated, like coal power, oil power, wood power, wave power, wind power, the choice (if Central control alows you to choose) is yours.

The fact of the matter is, if you are expecting to walk along the beach and have a million dollars in small denomination bills of your local currency, float ashore just where you happen to be walking, chances are this is how you will view the energy situation.

What really will occur is the conversion rate that Central Control can apply to whatever system they give the nod to, in order to squeeze the last cent out of the user.

You humanoids will not be consulted by Central Control as to which system they think is best (for them).

This is a fact, when were you consulted in the past on ANY issue that affected your daily life style?

If you believe otherwise, you'll believe anything.

The gas giant you call The Sun, is already a nuclear power plant big time, yet the central Control think it wise to try and match it in output as a viable solution to their problems.

The infrastructure of any system is always costly to initiate but once it's up and running it can be maintained.

I see Nuclear energy as a tall ladder leaning against the wrong wall, the higher the top the longer the drop, and the ground below is very unforgiving, take Chernobyl et al as an example of the unthinkable.

You humanoids have your hands tied when it comes to choice, like pigs to the slaughter, like, "take that one or nothing", the choice is yours.

I challenge you all now, voice your opinion in open forum, state the power system of your choice and the reasons if any as to why.
It won't make any difference though, nobody is going to listen to you, Central Control will see to that.

I just had a phone call from a firm called HRV that offers heating and cooling 24/7 for as little as 85 cents per day, that's about $300 a year.
Their website is WWW.HRV.COM.AU
Ian.

[fizzissist]

Oh, Ian!! You should rush out and buy that right now!!

Free heating! Free cooling!!

I'll bet our friends in Canada will be nominating you for sainthood when they feel that toasty air comin' from the attic in a good solid Canadian winter snowstorm.

Since it's a "smart" system, it'll know automatically when to turn on and what to pump where...unlike people like me who turn the attic fan on during the summer, and use convection to move outside cool night air into the bottom of the house and push the warm air up and out.

With all the money you've saved with that electric Vespa, you could buy 3 HRVs!! Put 'em in series and triple your efficiency!!!

[ynneb]

I have wondered is we spent the same money that we spend on wars, nuclear power, propping up coal fired stations etc, on building renewable energy collection stations, would we be out of pocket by much? After the initial setup expense, we would never need to wonder where our energy would come from again. There is huge savings in that too.

Sure each country has different sources available, and not all can exploit solar, but there is also wind, geothermal, and wave sources to also exploit.

The world is full of "No can do" people. I am glad that the little folk like the Wright brothers said yes we can. As a result we can fly hundreds of tons through the air. Even The wright brothers wouldn't have imagined the results of their experiments. Sure we are in the days of small beginnings, but if we start with what we can do today, who can imagine the results in 50 or 100 years from now.

These are good days, not doom and gloom days.

[fizzissist]

Collecting and storing energy is one major obstacle.
Hydro is easy, with gravity on your side. There's even some small-scale operations that use hydro electric power to pump water in times of low or no demand back up into the pond. Not 100% efficient, but it helps.

Combining wind and hydro is another way to enhance the storage for a pond type system.

Maybe one day someone will come up with a Peltier/Seebeck effect kluge that is actually efficient and maybe even cost effective. Waste heat has great potential.

[ynneb]

Collecting and storing energy is one major obstacle.

We can heat our water at any time without needing to collect. This is a big start to energy saving. We dont have to have all the solutions in order to start. Just like we couldn't fly jumbo jets in the early days. We just need to run with what we know.
Industry can use the electricity during the day.No need for storage there.
Sure we might need off peak supplements, but industry uses more than domestic anyway.

[Joulie]

Why are these global warming people getting an audience when a larger, real, measureable threat is upon us? I am speaking of the ever growing pool of non-productive members of our free society. Those on the dole are going to sink our ship for sure and the numbers are there for all to see. Just take the prison population for one, then the welfare and other programs. How about the burgeoning workforce of government workers, head-start, irs, and don't forget global warming, and on and on it goes. Why don't they model this?
In the age of the earth 100 years is just a blink of time and certainly hard to base projections on concerning climatic changes, but societal changes are very easy to make projections on. And we had better get busy on that! Enough of this other nonsense.

[Rekd]

I challenge you all now, voice your opinion in open forum, state the power system of your choice and the reasons if any as to why.

Mine is solar voltaic.

I generate about 13 to 18 Kwh a day, up to 2,500 watts peak for a couple hrs a day. That, along with extensive insulation, double pane glass, ceiling fans in every room, thermal coating on the roof, a pellet stove and a fireplace... my heating/cooling cost is minimal. Temps range from 30 to 110 here, and we're comfortable year round for roughly a few dollars a month.

It won't make any difference though, nobody is going to listen to you...

Don't care. (nuts)

My pocket book hears me just fine. And that's what the bottom line is, right?

[handlewanker]

REKD, Drool drool, 13 - 18 KW, now that is really serious generating, what more do you need.

The electric car is upon us, maybe you can give us a peek at the system.

What area of cells do you have to get this power capacity?

Where are they placed, roof, ground, or on tiltable stands for seasonal adjustment?

Do you store the power in a battery bank or use it direct?

What's the voltage level of the array?

Last but not least, what's the approx cost of the set up?

Second last but not least, what's the life expectancy of the collectors?
Ian.

[Geof]

REKD, Drool drool, 13 - 18 KW, now that is really serious generating, what more do you need...Ian.

Wipe up the drool; you didn't read right.

13 to 18 kwh, that is kilowatt hours, with a peak output of 2500 watts