[NIC 77]

Hi everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve posted on the forums, for the past few years I’ve been busy working, overtime every week, etc. But now, like so many other people, I now find myself with some spare time on my hands, and a new project to work on.

And I need some help!

I bought a couple of surplus linear stages for an industrial quality 3d printer build. Now I am trying to decide how I should power them.

The stages came with AC servos.

Tamagawa Seiki
TBL-S
TS4073N9E31
300W
200V
2006

I tried to find some more info on these from the Tamagawa Seiki website, but was unsuccessful. It looks like the “TBL-S” series is a legacy product, and I could only find info for their current line of servos. Does anyone know where I can find a manual or product catalog for these?

They are quite large, almost the size of a Nema 34. Much larger than the new series from Tamagawa Seiki that replaced them. There are 4 wires for the motor and about 15 wires for the encoder.

It would be nice to figure out a way to use them. They are absolutely brand new, never been used.

For the control board, I’m heavily leaning towards either a Duet 2 or a Duet 3 running an expansion board. These boards are specifically made for 3d printers and have great support and software options geared towards 3d printing. To do this I would need a servo driver that can accept step / dir inputs. Any suggestions, preferably something I can find surplus on EBay? Something that has a single phase 110VAC input would be ideal.

I am considering running them at a lower voltage. The link below is an old thread some of this was discussed previously. I'm also looking to find a Kv rating for these servos, which is explained by jfong in post #11 in the thread below. Like I mentioned, these servos have been replaced by newer versions and I can't seem to find any literature on them.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo...33064-cnc.html

I was thinking of using the Leadshine ACS806, which is an AC servo driver, but has a max input of 80VDC, which I assume translates into about 80 VAC after the driver.

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A couple of concerns I have….

1. I have no idea if the servo encoder on the Tamagawa Seiki servos is compatible with these drivers.

2. I don’t know how using lower voltage will affect the performance.

For stepper motors, running at a higher voltage effects the torque available at higher RPM’s, and running at higher current affects the torque available at low RPM. For example, you can have the exact same holding torque on a stepper motor that is running at a lower voltage.

But for these AC servo motors I'm not sure what will happen.

Does it reduce the torque at low RPM or does it only affect the performance at higher RPM’s? I don’t need to be able to run these servos at 3000 RPM.

Another option is to run these linear stages using Nema 23 stepper motors, but for a 3d printer, it would be really nice to be able to use servos.

Any input is appreciated.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
is it really worth that much just to keep old servos running?

A 400W B2 series Delta servo, drive and cables delivered to the US for $378....is it worth messing around when you could have new servo and drive matched to each other and ready
to rock?

Craig

[NIC 77]

Hi,
is it really worth that much just to keep old servos running?

A 400W B2 series Delta servo, drive and cables delivered to the US for $378....is it worth messing around when you could have new servo and drive matched to each other and ready
to rock?

Craig

Do those drives accept step/dir inputs? What power input do they require? Do you have any links?

Yes, it's worth it to figure out. I'm in Canada, compare CAD to USD, lol. Now multiply the difference by more than one axis. Everything is on a budget. Plus the servos I have are high quality, never been used. It's literally brand new stuff, even if it has sit in a package for a few years.

Still, I'd appreciate your continued input while I figure this out .

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Do those drives accept step/dir inputs? What power input do they require? Do you have any links?

Yes, step/dir, CW/CCW etc, analogue velocity and analogue torque and every combination in between as befits a modern AC servo.
They take 230VAC direct, no power supply required.

If you don't like Delta (Taiwanese manufactured in China) then look at DMM (Canadian manufactured in China). The do two drives, the DYN2 which takes 75VDC or for a
few extra bucks the DYN4 accepts 230VAC and is recommended. The higher voltage will ensure you get full rated speed.

DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

Both Delta and DMM are good brands that wont break the bank......there are cheaper Chinese no-name brands which work but don't enjoy the support that Delta and DMM do.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Plus the servos I have are high quality, never been used. It's literally brand new stuff, even if it has sit in a package for a few years.

I didn't mean to suggest that the servos you have aren't worth trying to get going but rather because they are in effect 'orphans' you will have to adapt some drive to them.
You could easily spend $200-$300 on a drive and STILL have some uncertainty that they will work. Whereas if you buy DMM and matching drive there is no uncertainty.

It may well be you could sell the existing servos as 'new old stock' and let some other poor sap worry about trying to get the right drives.

Craig

[NIC 77]

Thank You to everyone for all of your replies so far....

Below is an addendum to the conversation that I have been having in another thread:

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/stepp...186-cnc-2.html

Moving it over here so I don't hijack that thread more than I already have.

Try finding some drivers on eBay that work.

You're right.

My big problem is that I don't have a clue what in the heck I'm doing when it comes to servos. I can scour EBay for hours then look for manuals for things I find there, not find the manuals, look for something else, etc. The big thing about EBay is there's lots of surplus stuff that you can find good deals on (lots of way way overpriced deals too), but you need to know what you're looking for, and I don't.

I'm like a child, or a neanderthal banging away at a rock with another rock. I need someone to hold me by the hand and say....hey, look to see if you can find a deal on any of the following drivers on EBay....which might work for you.

Ideally, a surplus 4 axis servo driver accepting step/dir inputs with a 120VAC single phase power input is what I would like to find.

One big thing I need to consider is that I still need one more axis (I have collected three so far). All 3 have the Tamagawa Seiki's. I have a line on a 4th that has the same motor...but it's a bit on the pricey side. So deciding on what I'm going to do here will affect the purchase of my last stage.

[jfong]

Normally when encoders are listed as 1000lines, it will be 4000 pulses per rev with 4x quadrature decoding.

Several months ago I looked at the data sheets and manuals for the JMC and couldn’t get a reliable definitive answer to the encoder resolution. Several different manuals listed it differently. Best guess is 4000ppr. I’ve never used one so can’t say how good they are.


Before buying any kind replacement servo, take the linear stage apart and measure the old servo shaft diameter. Make sure you get a servo with the same. Those couplers in the linear stage are very expensive high end versions and you want to re-use them again if possible.

[NIC 77]

Normally when encoders are listed as 1000lines, it will be 4000 pulses per rev with 4x quadrature decoding.

Several months ago I looked at the data sheets and manuals for the JMC and couldn’t get a reliable definitive answer to the encoder resolution. Several different manuals listed it differently. Best guess is 4000ppr. I’ve never used one so can’t say how good they are.

I should probably send them a message and ask....

Is 4000 ppr or even 1000 ppr a decent enough number for driving 20mm lead ballscrews?

It will also be 20mm in the Z, but fully counterbalanced. I was thinking about using a 0.9 deg stepper for this originally if I could not get the Tamagawa Seiki servos working. Keep in mind, it's for a 3d printer.

Ideally, I would use a 2:1 or 3:1 belt driven gear reduction...I could use the 180W servos if I did that....but I want to keep the servos inside the module housings, for simplicity, and because this would allow me to do forced air cooling on them in the future. So for the JMC, it would need to be the 400W as 180W direct drive on 20mm lead isn't good enough.

Before buying any kind replacement servo, take the linear stage apart and measure the old servo shaft diameter. Make sure you get a servo with the same. Those couplers in the linear stage are very expensive high end versions and you want to re-use them again if possible.

The Tamagawa Seiki's have a shaft diameter of 11mm, while the JMC's have a shaft diameter of 14mm. Looking at the shaft coupler, it's some kind of fancy coupler with aluminum on either side, two set screws per side, and a polymer center (but not Lovejoy style, it doesn't come apart). I think I could easily drill out the 11mm on one half to 14mm and reuse it. I just have to check the dimensions of the adapter plate in CAD to double check if it will work with the JMC.

Regardless, the JMC servos have long shafts, like the Tamagawa Seiki's, so finding a Lovejoy coupler that's a bit longer than the original coupler would be easy enough if I need to, to accommodate for the adapter plate. A standard Nema 23 has a shaft length of around 10mm shorter than the servos, so it's more problematic.

I have figured out the pinouts for the encoders on the Tamagawa Seiki servos....the stages did come with a manual, and a diagram, and the wires are colour coded.

Attachment 446950

[jfong]

I priced out those types of couplers and they are not cheap. Any of the very low backlash ones are pricy.

Good that you have the pin out. All differential signal output which is very good.

A,B,Z would be the incremental encoder outputs

U,V,W are the hall sensors for each motor winding.

There should be another connector which has three wires. These are the motor power input. Maybe also a shield 4th wire.

[jfong]

Always better to have the highest encoder ppr. Not so much for resolution but for better Servo performance. More ppr counts the driver has available, the more data to calculate PID and all that other fancy stuff. Makes the motor run smoother.

20mm/1000ppr is 0.02mm or about 0.0008 inches. Is this good enough for a 3D printer, probably.

A stepper motor is good for 2000microsteps per Geckodrive. Any higher is empty resolution.

2000microsteps will sorta be better than a 1000ppr encoder. However the encoder will give very good evenly spaced steps. That’s not always the case with stepper motor. It could take a couple micro steps before a shaft actually moves. That depends on the load on the stepper motor shaft .

Of course 4000ppr would be way better. Some of my servo motors have 8000ppr or even higher.

[NIC 77]

I wonder what the ppr is on the Tamagawa Seiki's?

Yes, these couplers would not be cheap if you were to buy some. I would end up going with the standard EBay Lovejoy couplers at that point.

Aluminum with a hard rubber center....I wonder how they make them...

Attachment 446956

Motor connection pinouts:

Attachment 446958

There are some internal limit switches...not sure how useful those are...kind of hard to adjust with the cover on

Attachment 446960

Attachment 446962

Attachment 446964

Attachment 446966

[NIC 77]

There are a few people using JMC servos with Duet boards...I'll have to look into it a bit more.

https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/12126...xis-movement/2

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
are you getting enough savings on the cheaper JMC's relative to a known good brand like Delta or DMM?

My guess is you'll be paying 75% of the price of a Delta B2 series (160,000 counts per rev) for a JMC of the same power but way less
quality and support.

Craig

[NIC 77]

Hi,
are you getting enough savings on the cheaper JMC's relative to a known good brand like Delta or DMM?

My guess is you'll be paying 75% of the price of a Delta B2 series (160,000 counts per rev) for a JMC of the same power but way less
quality and support.

Craig

All options are still on the table....right now my big thing is to figure out if I should try and ensure that I get another Tamagawa Seiki for my last stage that I haven't bought yet.

Can you please post some links to the Delta B2 series, where would you buy that?

I was looking at some DMM drivers to drive my Tamagawa Seikis. I wonder if these would work:

DMM | NEW DYN2 AC Servo Drive | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

Those are $218 plus tax / shipping for each driver, although it doesn't look like I'd need to buy power supplies, and I don't know if it would work.

The JMC 400W servos are $108 USD plus tax / shipping (albeit shipping is more).

Hi,
by the way I bought a 400W Delta B2 series and then some 750W Delta B2 series, the price difference between the 400W and 750W was only $38USD.
With 750W you probably don't need a belt or gear reduction.

Craig

I don't need any reduction with a 400W (or even 300W), but if I did have some reduction I could get away with 180W, that was the point I was trying to make.

750W is overkill for what I'm doing. Also, I don't think I could fit them in my stages. But that's good info to know.

I'm really kind of hoping that some one will come along and say, hey, you know what, the following 4 axis servo amp will accept step/dir inputs, and probably work out for you, and I can find that on EBay, surplus, and not for a kidney.

Lots of people like the JMC servos....but it appears that most of them speak German, making it difficult to understand what they're saying on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyVr35pgx7s

As always, all feedback is appreciated!

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
by the way I bought a 400W Delta B2 series and then some 750W Delta B2 series, the price difference between the 400W and 750W was only $38USD.
With 750W you probably don't need a belt or gear reduction.

Craig

[Al_The_Man]

I really like Tamagawa motors, I have picked them up quite cheap off ebay etc, and used them with a few systems. but the BLDC drives I have used are the simple torque mode amplifiers where the loop is not closed in the drive.
Various manuf.
Very simple to use where the servo loop is controlled in the main controller and not the drive.
The problem comes when systems such as Mach is used.
Al.

[Al_The_Man]

BTW, one decent place for CNC hardware, couplers etc, is Misumi.
The free catalogues they send out free , or used to, are worth it for the mechanical reference information.
Al.

[NIC 77]

Thanks to everyone for your replies so far.

If you look back at post #12, I attached a bunch of pics...

In the second large wiring diagram it lists the Tamagawa Seiki driver as AU6270N203E25 and shows that it is compatible with step/dir. That's a 200 VAC driver....I want to use 120 VAC wall power ideally...As previously mentioned, I don't want to move these at 1200 mm/s, which is the rated speed of the stages, 400 mm/s is plenty fine for me.

But let's say I had those drivers and was running them at 200VAC, what would be stopping me? I'd need to tune the servos still, so could I do that through the drives or would I need some software to run on a computer and a manual? Where would I get that software? Hmmm...

It also lists the 100VAC driver as AU6270N106E15, that's directed towards the 100V servos, don't know if it could be made to work with mine.

There are Tamagawa Seiki drivers to be found....but I don't know how to interpret the differences in part numbers or find the manuals, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tamagawa-se.../202980051647?

TBL servo drives, 2 for $55. AU6551N282E140

I can't find anything on this page about them:

https://www.tamagawa-seiki.com/downloads/pdf/

The problem isn't that it can't be done, my problem is that I don't know how to do it.

One of the members here has the same stages that I do, and he didn't have a problem getting it done.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...ry-router.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...cnc-posts.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...4-cnc-cad.html

He used some Emerson or Control Techniques EN-204 or EN-208 sinusoidal drives to drive Tamagawa motors. I couldn't find any of these drives on EBay less than an arm, but the point is, for him, it wasn't too hard. I just don't have the experience with it. I was looking at the Leadshine ACS806, but it looks to be trapezoidal, which the Tamagawa's don't like.

[NIC 77]

I sent an email to the JMC servo sales dept. and asked if it was 1000 ppr or 4000 ppr with quadrature decoding. We'll see what they say.

I looked up some clearpath SDSK Nema23 frame servos for a comparison.....I was surprised to see that their standard achievable resolution was 0.450 degrees.

So 360/0.45 = 800. Yeah, that's not great. The thing that struck me about that was our conversation about how the larger number of ppr doesn't just increase the resolution, it also makes the motion smoother, better. Well, the Clearpath servos have great motion. Everyone says so. That makes me think that there is some "special sauce" in the brains of this thing, and perhaps that is a more recent development for integrated servos compared to more traditional models. JMC servos might be similar.

Clearpath does have an enhanced option which brings it down to 0.057 deg, it just costs a bit more. The JMC 400W have alot more rated torque than any of the Clearpath Nema 23 frame I looked at. Note, I said rated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVYY0LxySI0

Update on the 1990 Haas VF1 X axis motor trials. First up is the 1232 oz-in Nema 34 Stepper, with a DM860A driver. The driver is good up to 80 VDC. I used the same 60 VDC switching power supply as used on the Clearpath servo in the previous video. I thought I had video of this, but it's gone. I must have deleted it. Not much different from the Clearpath servo. Achieved 250 IPM (inches per minute) with an acceleration of 12. Very similar performance to my untrained eye. Next up, we have a contender. JMC 400W Integrated Servo Motor iHSV60-30-40-48. This is slightly larger than a Nema 23 stepper motor, but it packs a wallop! I couldn't stall this motor until the numbers got ridiculous (and then it was from too fast of pulses, not a lack of power. Bear in mind this motor is as delivered, untuned. I'm sure that someone who knows how to tune these things could make it sing and dance. Also, this motor is rated 20 to 50 VDC, 400W. All I had was a 36 VDC switching power supply at 350 watts. I experienced some lags that I think are due to voltage drop when the motor is stressed. This motor ran at 1000 IPM!

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
Clearpath have opted to make their servos as basic and amenable to former steppers users as possible. One compromise they made was to
have one line of models with only 800 cpr encoders. Many a stepper user would be familiar with that....but the underlying servo mechanism is much much
better than that.

The other line of servos has a 6000 cpr encoder which is much better and I wouldn't settle for less.

The problem with Clearpath is that they are too bloody expensive. Compare a 400W Clearpath, if you can find one, and a 400W Delta, DMM or JMC. Note also that Clearpath
tend to advertise on their peak power, sounds great, but what you really want to know (and compare) is continuous rated power....and there Clearpath don't do well.
Another gripe about Clearpath is just the one digital output, called HLFB. That one output can be either 'following error' or 'overload' or 'in position signal', but only one
at a time. Delta's have eight digital outputs, all programmable, so you can have 'following error', and a separate 'overload (aka over voltage/over current)', separate 'in position'
and so on. In addition you can have two analogue outputs, say motor speed and motor current. In short because Clearpath have opted for simplicity to capture erstwhile
stepper users they have sacrificed a great deal of what makes modern AC servos so great and all at an unjustifiable premium.

Craig