[djh82uk]

Hi Guys

I have been trying to read up on a lot of info, My main aim is to make PCB's and I am on a tight budget (isn't everyone?), I could probably stretch to £1000 (I am in the UK).

I was looking a proxxim MF70 that was already converted but have noticed that it has an SMC 800 card which will not work with Mach 3? And there seems to be very little in the way of software for it.

I have looked at a Seig X1, but I do not know where I could get the conversion kit.

it does not have to be a converted mini mill but seems the cheapest, what would you reccomend remembering I am in the UK, where can I get a CNC machine for PCB's for less that £1000.

I was going to save up for a cncdudez machine only to notice they no longer make them

DJH

[askman]

I doin't know what taig will go for in UK, but it works great for pcb. (in US, you can set one up for $1500) sherline will probably work as well, but taig is much better machine. also, some type of smaller cnc router may be another option.

for x1 conversion, check out cncfusion.com main issue here is spindle speed.

[digits]

Hi Guys

I have been trying to read up on a lot of info, My main aim is to make PCB's and I am on a tight budget (isn't everyone?), I could probably stretch to £1000 (I am in the UK).

I was looking a proxxim MF70 that was already converted but have noticed that it has an SMC 800 card which will not work with Mach 3? And there seems to be very little in the way of software for it.

I have looked at a Seig X1, but I do not know where I could get the conversion kit.

it does not have to be a converted mini mill but seems the cheapest, what would you reccomend remembering I am in the UK, where can I get a CNC machine for PCB's for less that £1000.

I was going to save up for a cncdudez machine only to notice they no longer make them

DJH

Hi, I don't think I'd recommend the X-1 - it's spindle speed is 1/10th of what you want.

Have you seen this place - I'm not sure if it's a Taig or a sherline, but they seem to be the UK distributor: http://www.peatol.com/

If you really want an X-1, I have CNC Fusion's kit, which is superbly made IMHO - you're looking at 2-3 weeks for delivery into the UK, with VAT etc to pay on arrival.

If you don't mind a bit of DIY, I suppose you could buy a spindle & motor from peatol and mount it on the side of a CNC'ed X-1!

[LongRat]

Consider mounting the Proxxon IB/E handheld unit onto the side of a CNC X1. This works very well as a lightweight high speed spindle for PCB work (I use mine on alu and brass and carbon fibre sheet on my CNC X2). A friend of mine has this actual setup and it works nicely.

Here is a pic of mine on my X2:



The X2 is probably less suited to PCB work than the X1 as it is slightly more involved to CNC it and doesn't have such a large working area in X and Y. However it does have more Z travel and is a lot more rigid and powerful if you ever want to do heavier duty milling.

[djh82uk]

So say I got started with the X1

What would I need?
The X1
Cncfusion kit
3 Stepper motors (what ones tho? as oz/in etc)
controller card (stepmasternc ok?)

Anything else I would need?

Whats involved in adding the spindle to the side?

Thanks

DJH

[itsme]

Hi there,

It may be worth while speaking to CompUCut about high speed spindle options for the X1. They do a lot for the X1 and on their website they mention using some kind of adapted spindle with a small router motor to get up to 30000 RPM - this may be just what you need as far as spindles go.

http://www.compucutters.com/machines...rojectMore.htm

Regards
Warren

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi Guys

I have been trying to read up on a lot of info, My main aim is to make PCB's and I am on a tight budget (isn't everyone?), I could probably stretch to £1000 (I am in the UK).

I was looking a proxxim MF70 that was already converted but have noticed that it has an SMC 800 card which will not work with Mach 3? And there seems to be very little in the way of software for it.

I have looked at a Seig X1, but I do not know where I could get the conversion kit.

it does not have to be a converted mini mill but seems the cheapest, what would you reccomend remembering I am in the UK, where can I get a CNC machine for PCB's for less that £1000.

I was going to save up for a cncdudez machine only to notice they no longer make them

DJH

Hi DJH,

A couple of questions for you; do you have plans to cut anything else other than PCB?
How handy are with wood working tools?

I would not recommend a milling machine for PCB; imo you need a lighter faster machine and with this in mind I would recommend building something like this.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15835

If that looks too complicated there are other simpler designs which would work well in the CNC Wood Router Project Log or DIY-CNC Router Table Machines forums. I do not have any build threads of my own but I have built four different DIY machines so if you need help with sourcing parts in the UK I have a long list of suppliers; just PM me and I will do what I can to help.

If you still want to go the X1 route then I would ask digits for an estimate on his X1 set up. I would think that you may very quickly eat up your budget if that includes software as well but I may be wrong.

http://www.cncfusion.com/micromill1.html

http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co.uk/ I recommend for stepper motors and drives.

You may have already seen these but if not it will more than likely be of interest to you on the software side http://www.mr-bean.co.uk/pcb_stuff/pcb_stuff.html and http://www.brusselsprout.org/PCB-Routing/

Good luck,

John

[djh82uk]

I have thought about building one out of mdf but was worried about resolution, the time it would take to build, plus the fact i don't even have a jigsaw let alone a table saw etc. What are your thoughts on them?

I thought about the X1 as it looked rugged and the fact there are kits out there for them.

My original choice was this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...3011&rd=1&rd=1

What are your thoughts? I know I cannot use Mach3 etc with it as it has a an SMC 800 controller, but I did think about asking him to sell me one without the controller so i could buy one.

As far as software goes I have Mach 3 and Kcam around here somewhere.

I main aim is to mill pcb's, but I would also like to make some custom items for model railway aswell as some light aluminium work (such as making a new spindle holder etc)

If I went with the X1 do I just need the controller, steppers and the conversion kit?

what would I need for a home built machine? what sort of cost would I be looking at?

thanks

DJH

[digits]

I have thought about building one out of mdf but was worried about resolution, the time it would take to build, plus the fact i don't even have a jigsaw let alone a table saw etc. What are your thoughts on them?

I thought about the X1 as it looked rugged and the fact there are kits out there for them.

My original choice was this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...3011&rd=1&rd=1

What are your thoughts? I know I cannot use Mach3 etc with it as it has a an SMC 800 controller, but I did think about asking him to sell me one without the controller so i could buy one.

As far as software goes I have Mach 3 and Kcam around here somewhere.

I main aim is to mill pcb's, but I would also like to make some custom items for model railway aswell as some light aluminium work (such as making a new spindle holder etc)

If I went with the X1 do I just need the controller, steppers and the conversion kit?

what would I need for a home built machine? what sort of cost would I be looking at?

thanks

DJH

TBH, I really think £1000 is a very tight budget for CNC - you are bound to spend several £100s on tooling and measuring equipment once you have the machine.

If that tiny Proxon is good enough for you, you could always chop off the controller and buy some stepper drivers for it. Is 160x80mm really the biggest thing you'll ever make though?

I would strongly advise you to avoid stepmasternc like the plague - mine actually caught fire in use, and was missing steps at random before it died. Spend some money on some drivers from Motion Control Products - about £40 per motor-driver IIRC and it'll just work as it should.

I still don't think I'd recommend an unmodified X1 for PCB work - even with a a high-speed spindle. IMHO You would need to fix the jerkiness of the Z-axis with a counter balance or some linear rails, otherwise I think you'd snap a lot of 0.8mm drills while drilling out PCB's.

[djh82uk]

Thank you this is really what I needed, tho it means im a bit more lost, it's better than buying the wrong thing.

I know what you mean about the £1000 and I totally agree but it is all I have at the moment

The proxxon I can get with an extended table 16cm x 10 cm, not much of an increase I know, perfect for pcb's that I will be making, but not for much else. Would it be enough to help make parts for another cnc machine in the future? Like motor mounts and spindle holder?

I guess the proxxon is kinda suited to small ish pcb's due to it's small and lighter design? Do you think I would have the same problems with the Z Axis?

If I did go with the X1 im presuming linear rails means 2 rails either side of the leadscrew with a mount at the top and bottom? My problem would be getting or making a mount, or would the x1 be able to make it once cnc'd but before it is has the z axis fixed?

Thanks for the tip about MCP I was wondering about controllers, I presume they work ok with mach 3?

Im really struggling with what to do, I do feel that the proxxon will limit me in the future, but yet it seems the cheapest option. The Proxxon works out £679 delivered including the extended table, a pcb clamp and a dust vacumn atatchment. Then I need the tooling etc but leaves a few hundred for that or I could also buy the mcp controller

I want to find out what motors he uses, hopefully theyre stepper motors with and nmea 23 fitting and ok ish power.

Sorry for all the questions, any advice welcome.

DJH

[Oldmanandhistoy]

One of the things that crops up with CNC beginners is the wish to buy/build a machine that will multi task. The reality is that you end up with a machine which will do one thing well and another not well enough.

You mentioned the CNCdudes machine; have you searched for something similar? That type of machine would have been ideal for PCB’s but not so good for milling larger items like motor mounts.

My advice is if you can’t DIY a machine keep an eye out for a home built CNC machine on Ebay they do come up now and again and sell for around the £500 mark. Then buy a suitable mill to do the other jobs you have in mind.
As I have already mentioned I have a CNC router for cutting timber and plastics. I now have a mill for steel and aluminium (still to be cnc’ed) and I have plans in the near future to build a small machine very much like the first machine I linked to for PCB’s and engraving.

I do understand you struggling with all the options available (been there) but most of your confusion comes from trying to find a machine that will multitask. Imo you will be disappointed with such a machine. The X1 converted is probably the nearest you will get to fit your requirements but not ideal. As for a sticky Z axis; a simple solution to that if it is in fact a problem would be to use an oversized stepper motor. Once you have the X1 use that to build a small light weight machine to mill PCB’s.

John

[djh82uk]

Hi thanks for that

I see what you mean about a multi function machine, my main aim is pcb's and model railway items (small train wheels etc), so I guess I should start with that until i learn more about what I want, then I can always save up for another machine for heavier stuff.

I have been trying an awful lot to find something else like the cncdudez machine and not had any luck, I foud a nice machine in germany but is a bit above my budget (Machine is £1500) plus it also has an SMC 800 card so no mach 3 or anything, so would have to add on the price of another card.

Say I were to use an oversized motor on the Z axis, would it matter that the other 2 were not matched?

Im kinda stuck between the proxxom and the X1, the Proxxom is plenty big enough to do the pcb's, plus I can also do other light jobs like making level crossing barriers etc for model railway for my father.

The whole reason im getting into it is really for the pcb's and because I find it all very interesting, tho I feel I have an awful lot to learn.

I was kind of thinking about getting the proxxom, then in the future perhaps an X1 or X2 for the heavier stuff if I feel the need, or maybe use the proxxom to help me make small mounts etc for a homebuilt one.

is that possible or is it a silly assumption? Which machine do you think would give me best results for pcb's? The proxxom is stated as having a resolution of 0.05mm, is that acceptable (Sounds like it to me considering my budget).

What worries me about buying a homebuilt one is that I having no way of verifing it's build quality or how accurate it is etc until I have paid out for it and received it.

If I went with the proxxom i would probably get a better controller for it so I would be looking at around £800 spent plus tooling on top.

If I went with the X2 I would the mill (£215), conversion kit (about £160), Controller (£120), motors (no idea) and then I would also have to figure out how to add limit switches I guess, plus add a higher speed spindle, but I guess I could use the cnc'd X1 to make the spindle?

The X1 looks like it may well work out a bit cheaper, but perhaps I am missing something, plus I have no way of knowing how accurate or how good it will be for pcb's.

your thoughts?

Thanks

DJH

[Oldmanandhistoy]

In one of your earlier posts you linked to a machine from the US; have you looked there for a more suitable alternative? Wigitmaster makes a very nice little machine which would suit your needs http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21872 I know he has send at least one over here but have no idea of the price. The US is a very good option at the moment with the £ $ rate and I would be amazed if you could not find something over there.

As for stepper motors; there is no need to match them as long as the drives are suitable for each.

If you say a Proxxom is big enough for your needs I would go with that rather than the X1. If you out grow it you can always upgrade in the future and it would be an ideal starter machine (if you break something it would be cheaper to repair).

I can’t comment on if the Proxxom will be suitable for making part for CNCing an X1 but a search of this site will give you lots of information on its capabilities.

What I would do now if in your position would be to do a search for threads on the Proxxom machine. Find out if it will do what you need and is it good value for money; if not then look at the alternatives.

Obviously this is all just my opinion and there may be better options but I hope I have helped.

John

[digits]

One thing I would say, is that you need to be sure that you can easily get spare parts for any mill you pick. I have broken my X-1's gearbox about half a dozen times - fortunately I can get spares next day from Arc Euro Trade. Do you know where you can get Proxxon spares?

[digits]

Thank you this is really what I needed, tho it means im a bit more lost, it's better than buying the wrong thing.

I know what you mean about the £1000 and I totally agree but it is all I have at the moment

The proxxon I can get with an extended table 16cm x 10 cm, not much of an increase I know, perfect for pcb's that I will be making, but not for much else. Would it be enough to help make parts for another cnc machine in the future? Like motor mounts and spindle holder?

It is nearly always easier to make parts for a smaller machine using a larger one - if you want to see just how much pain you can have going the otherway, check out my mill build in the Vertical mill project log section.

I guess the proxxon is kinda suited to small ish pcb's due to it's small and lighter design? Do you think I would have the same problems with the Z Axis?

If I did go with the X1 im presuming linear rails means 2 rails either side of the leadscrew with a mount at the top and bottom? My problem would be getting or making a mount, or would the x1 be able to make it once cnc'd but before it is has the z axis fixed?

No idea - go and find a Proxxon in a showroom to play with - IMHO this is too much money to buy blind...

If I were going to add rails to my X-1, I would use fully supported rails that would be screwed into the sides of the Z-column all the way up. I would then build some bracketry to bolt the carriages too the head support. It is possible to make this stuff on an X-1, but you'd have to take the mill apart to fit it, and it's usally at that point that you discover that something isn't quite right, and that you need a working mill to fix it

Thanks for the tip about MCP I was wondering about controllers, I presume they work ok with mach 3?

Im really struggling with what to do, I do feel that the proxxon will limit me in the future, but yet it seems the cheapest option. The Proxxon works out £679 delivered including the extended table, a pcb clamp and a dust vacumn atatchment. Then I need the tooling etc but leaves a few hundred for that or I could also buy the mcp controller

I want to find out what motors he uses, hopefully theyre stepper motors with and nmea 23 fitting and ok ish power.

Sorry for all the questions, any advice welcome.

DJH

If you mean stepper drivers, then, yes the MCP ones work fine Mach 3 - you just need a parallel port breakout board, or you can just wire up a custom parallel lead as I have.

IMHO, £200 ish won't get you much tooling for an X-1 - you'd need a collet-chuck to hold end mills - £50, a vice £50, some indicators/squares to get everything set up £30+ and then some endmills - £20 for a handful. All the tenners and £30's rapidly add up to one very expensive hobby

You also need £75 for Mach 3, and something for CAM - SheetCAM might be good for the drilling, but I don't know how you'd mill out the PCB traces, if that's your plan. Personally I'd get messy with Ferric Chloride and etch them, and save the CNC for doing the drilling.

[djh82uk]

Hiya

Thanks youve all been a great help, im kind of venturing away from the X1 and more towards the proxxon and the widgetmaster machine.

I intend to use the eagle addon to convert the board layout to Gcode for isolation routing, i just cannot get repeatable results with etching. I intend for this to be more than a hobby, I have some very nice circuits I have designed with micro porcessors that do things others dont which i intend to turn into products for model railway enthusiasts eventually. i don't want to use a fab house due to the cost over time, plus I like the hand-on approach and i love learning new things. Plus I don't want to have to keep paying for prototypes for the 30+ products I have.

I have emailed widget master and am waiting his reply, i really like his machine, i presume I only need sterppers, controller, dremel and limit switches?

with thr Proxxon im fairly sure I can get spares if need be.

Ok so now im stuck between the proxxon and the widgetmaster machine.

Thanks
DJH

[djh82uk]

Hmm, what do you guys think of this taig?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...4501&rd=1&rd=1

I guess it needs a chuck (judging by pictures) plus all the other tooling?

DJH

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hmm, what do you guys think of this taig?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...4501&rd=1&rd=1

I guess it needs a chuck (judging by pictures) plus all the other tooling?

DJH

I think you need to spend some time searching for threads on the different options, maybe asking one or two questions there about what they think about their machines and go from there. All the information you need will more than likely be here somewhere it’s just a case of searching it out.

Good luck,

John

[djh82uk]

Thank you

I don't mean to be a pain asking so many questions, I just like to get things as close to right as I can the first time round

DJH

[Oldmanandhistoy]

I don’t think you are being a pain; I just think this site is an excellent source for researching a product. As you say you want to get it right first time round and researching is the way to do that. I know from experience you can wait a long time for information to come to you. The suggestion to search for the information was to save you time.

John