[Tony the Ferret]

Hi Dan. Great reply, although i am concerned with some of your Answers

1). Whilst i agree that the 5 axis takes some getting used to, i think it is great that you don't have to worry about collisions and over rotation. Programming 5 axis has never been easier (IMHO)
3) do you want to sign up with me for support :argue:

I am using 19.23 and think that the R&D guys have the interface nailed. but we still have customers who install with the V18 interface

Here is my take on 2 CAM softwares that we use:

WorkNC:

1) Ease of Use, 8 (I refrain from a higher score only because the simultaneous 5-axis can be tricky sometimes)
2) Reliability of toolpaths, 10
3) Customer support, 6 (takes a while to get a response a lot of times)
4) speed of calculation, 9
5) Interface and 9
6) Great Postprocessor. 10

MadCam (Rhino plug-in):

1) Ease of Use, 10
2) Reliability of toolpaths, 9
3) Customer support, 9
4) speed of calculation, 10
5) Interface and 9
6) Great Postprocessor. 8 (more documentation would be nice)

Dan

[Dan B]

Hi Tony,

We probably don't use the simu 5X module enough to get really good at it. I agree that auto5 is easy, but it seems to take quite a while to process, so the guys on the floor tend to avoid it. I push for more simultaneous paths, but a lot of times they find a 3+2 axis way around that. It's that old dog-new tricks thing.

As for support, it's not uncommon for me to wait a day or 2 for a response. I always get one, just not as quick as I would like sometimes. This isn't Sescoi I'm talking about, just the local guys. So you are running 19.23? We have 19.20. I didn't even know there was a 19.23!! See what I mean?

Dan

[Tony the Ferret]

Hi Dan
don't worry, nothing major, just testing, retract hights, reccognising 3+2 from same view new post commands etc. , anyhow, V20 is only just round the corner so they tell me :stickpoke.
I also use more 3+2 where possible, but mainly to replace 5 ax rolling where the designer thinks they know best (within a tolerance)
Tony
PS You can contact me direct if you need any additional info.

[surfsup]

1) Ease of Use,
2) Reliability of toolpaths,
3) Customer support,
4) speed of calculation,
5) Interface and
6) Great Postprocessor

Are great questions that cannot be answered (except #3) unless a comparison is made. We did some benchmarks and I will say that the general 3D products (ESPRIT, Mastercam, etc) are not "great" 3D systems. We are using ESPRIT Mold which is acutally called "auton" in Europe and being multi-threading for ALL of their processes, it is very very fast. Faster than WorkNC and Delcam (which is pretty fast). Also the Auton autotilt is hyperthreading which makes it useable. We tested Delcam's and it took several hours to autotilt a 3D toolpath that took Auton/ESPRIT Mold (different than ESPRIT) about 25 minutes to calculate. This is a huge difference in waiting.

Of course, standard systems like Mastercam, Gibbs, ESPRIT don't even have autotilt so...

as far as training, we got 4 hours web based training on Friday and we cut 6 molds by Monday AM. I'd say that's easy.

[tobyaxis]

Cruising the net I found this. The Graphics aren't the best, but it looks great from a user stand point.

Schott Systeme CAD CAM - Pictures by PC and IsyCAM

[JerryFlyGuy]

Till ya see the price! Yikes.. I think I'll stay w/ SolidWorks... it's cheaper

[tobyaxis]

Till ya see the price! Yikes.. I think I'll stay w/ SolidWorks... it's cheaper

LOL Price is always a factor in software purchasing.

[cadcam]

So you know solid works is not a Cam system but just a Cad system.
You can add Cam to it like "Mastercam for Solidworks"

[JerryFlyGuy]

Tody... isn't that the truth... IIRC they were asking $25K or something for that??

CadCam, and here I've been running SolidWorks for 7yrs and I just realized it's not a CAM... {Just yanking ur chain.. }... My point was that for a very 'unknown' program they were asking alot.. For ~$7-8K I could by SolidWorks and an integrated CAM.. vs the crazy number they had listed on their site..

[cadcam]

I hear you Jerry.. LOL

Tody... isn't that the truth...

Sorry Toby but I have to LOL your new name is "Tody the Frog". Sorry could not help myself.

[ktmktmman]

I have a full time job at a shop that runs master-cam and Ive been using it for about 3 years. I also have a part time job at another shop that has been using pro-cam but has switched to CAM-works. Now that I have been trained on both cam systems I would have to say that CAM-works is a better all around system. It also depends what kind of cam work you are doing. If you use 2D lines to make programs I would go with master-cam, but if you are using 3D models I would go with CAM-works hands down. If you have any questions ask away!

[JerryFlyGuy]

Tody .......

Sorry Toby..

[Chrliev]

MasterCam has the most votes in this poll. I didn't really need to see a poll to know that MasterCam would be miles ahead, it has the largest user base. It is unlikely that a person who has used nothing but MasterCam for years would vote for anything else. My experience with MasterCam would portray something very different from the results of this poll.

In the early 1990's, I was looking for a second system to add because my NCL (by NCCS) system was too complicated for "simple" 2 and 3 axis parts. I tried MasterCam and I found it to be lacking in many important areas, even though the salesman denied it. SurfCam was superior by a large margin, around 2001 I went back and looked at MaterCam again and the salesman lied to me again.

I'm not sure how MasterCam got to be where they are, IMO probably only because "somehow" a whole bunch of bootleg copies managed to get passed around.

NCL is the most powerful true 4 and 5-axis CNC software that I have ever seen but not very easy to use. SurfCam Velocity 4.0 is very close to being as powerful. Besides the TrueMill, the new 4 and 5 axis with multi check surfaces is just amazing. I have no idea what MasterCam is capable of but since they were lagging behind before, it seems unlikely that they will ever catch up. Just My Opinion, Yours may Vary...

[Dan B]

If you give your software away for free to the local colleges then you are bound to increase your user base. That's what Mastercam does in my city. It's a smart move. It doesn't really cost anything more than the price of a CD but you can claim you donated $100K worth of software, look good in the press, and claim it on your taxes. And at the end of the day, there are scores of students trained to use your product, regardless of how good or bad it is.

If I owned a software company I would do the same thing.

Dan

[Chrliev]

During the 90's almost every machinist that I knew had a bootlegged copy of MasterCam at home and at work. Then at some point I heard that CNC Software, the parent company of MasterCam was actively and aggressively pursuing users of their unlicensed software, also when it came time for average guys to recommend a programming system to their employers, they picked the one they already knew.

It is unknown how so many unlicensed copies of MasterCam flooded machine shops, but what is known is that bootlegers helped them to become the giant that they are today. Sophisticated software protection schemes have always hurt software sales. The MasterCam scenario proves this, your software doesn't have to be the best you just need the best marketing, or in this case non-marketing scheme.

MasterCam is certainly not the best, several companies have better 4 and 5 axis modules, this poll should be re-titled, "What 3D Cam Software Do You Use"....

[Dead_Reckoning]

I've been using Tebis most of my machining career, if your doing anything that requires 3+2 or simultaneous 5X Tebis beats them all. But of course Tebis also costs at least twice as much as the nearest competitor (about $50,000 per seat). This is something you have to weigh out when considering it.

[Chrliev]

In the 80's and 90's years I used NCL from NCCS. NCL is the best software for simultaneous 3, 4 and 5-axis tool motion that I have ever seen but it was difficult to use, didn't support lathes (at the time) and was cumbersome for 2-axis milling.

There was another cam software at the time, I believe it was called CAMAX that was also very good. I don't know what happened to them they may have been swallowed up, morphed but they seemed to have disappeared from the scene.

I went out looking for the best application for my uses at the time, which is 2-5axis milling and locked onto SurfCam. Most of my work is as an independent CNC Mfg Engineering consultant and I have literally made a small fortune working with SurfCam and before that NCL. I honestly don't know what the best all around CNC programming software option is, I wish I did. I only know what works well for me and it's SolidWorks integrated in a partnership with SurfCam.

[Dead_Reckoning]

This poll looks a little weird, it is supposed to represent high end softwares yet it is missing some of the most powerful players in the game; Tebis, Hypermill, Powermill, even Worknc?!?!?! Anyone of these 4 are largely known to exceed the abilities of the ones listed in the poll (with the exception of Catia). Smaller mom and pop shops may use some of the softwares listed in this poll for 3D cutting, but any larger company will definitely be using Tebis, Hypermill, Powermill, Worknc, UG, Cimatron or Catia for CAM.

I'm not software bashing and certainly the best CAM software is the one that fits your company, but it seems like the biggest players in the game have been purposely excluded from this poll.

[neurosis]

My preference goes to MASTERCAM (X)

- recognises ACAD, INVENTOR, SOLID EDGE, and a lot more.
- has a own drawing program
- has a lot of postprocessors
- simulation is possible
- processes many types of machines: lathes, milling machines, engraver,...
- a big library of cutting tools
- many more features

You may as well add to that list of mastercam features,

-is bug ridden
-every release seems to introduce more bugs than the last
-it crashes constantly
-features that worked in previous releases get broken
-if your not on maintenance then you dont get service packs to fix the bugs
-graphics issues affecting verify


I could go on and on.

Do I sound bitter?

[Mike Mattera]

As a matter of fact you do sound bitter. I'd like to know how long your been using Mastercam? and what kind of training you've had?

Now that we know you dislike Mastercam, want to tell us which Cam system you do like?

I've discovered that most people who tell me they've found a bug in Mastercam, are simply using it wrong. Usually because they never took the time to get any training.

Other things to consider...
Most other software packages dont have nearly the amount of features as Mastercam. So, there are fewer things that can break. If you find 1 bug in brand "Y" cam, maybe it's because it only has 20 functions. Where as Mastercam has 1000's of functions. So the likely hood of there being more bugs is a possibility. Also consider this... Brand "Y" may have fewer users. The more people beating on a software package, the more bugs they will find. People will always find new and unique ways to use the software, that were never considered before.

The most important thing: I've never seen a bug in Mastercam that I couldn't work around.

CNC Software / Mastercam
Fully integrated Cad/Cam with Solid modeling starting at $6000(US).
Maintenance is 10% (most other systems are 15% or more).
Fully associative toolpaths.
Support for Mill, Lathe, Wire EDM, Routers, Plasma and Watertjets.
The largest dealer network of any Cam package.
More 3rd party training material than any other Cam package.
Taught in more schools (Not because it's free. Because it's what Industry uses).
Made in the USA.
Family owned company.
A company with a commitment to the environment
(Solar powered offices, Geothermal heat, recycled office products. They even have a composter for their used coffee and lunch scraps.).


Mike Mattera