[AirChunk]

Hello all,
Is there a way to make a tool like the cm doctor . that would spin the camshaft and map out the lobe ? I am very interested in making one .
Would a probe like a digitizing probe on a CMM be used for this?
Thanks.

[NC Cams]

In light of the fact that I make cams for a living, I can speak with a high degree of authority on this particular subject.

Depending on how much you want to spend and how much programming exeperience/expertise you have access to will determine how or if you can construct such a device. It is NOT easy to do (synthesize the cam lift data PROPERLY). I can say from years of experience, a CMM is categorically useless for measuring cam lift and/or investigating profile dynamics.

Frankly, we offer the service (reading cams) to the hobbyist and/or performance engine builder. We do it for a small fraction of what it would cost to build a machine and a smaller fraction yet for what it could cost you to develop one.

The same device we'd use to measure your cam is used to measure the cams we make for OEM prototyping and/or our race cam clients.

We can graph out and supply the full dynamics (lift, velocity and acceleration plots) or else simply supply a simple cam lift chart. It all depends on what you want/need in the way of data and the amount of data you can deal with/use.

We also offer cam grinding as well as profile design services. Total valvetrain engineering services are also available.

[AirChunk]

NC Cams,
I was trying yo get around buying a cam doctor. I have little to no programing experience. But do manual and cnc machining everyday . Drop me an e-mail at [email protected]
and I will send you a cam or 2 to be profiled . I work on modern 4 stroke dirt bikes .
Thanks !

[NC Cams]

In light of being unable to program a computer, you can pretty much write off the idea of making your own cam doctor.

Interestingly, the true "cam doctor" was no longer being produced or supported the last time I looked. The only cam measuring machines available today are the ones supplied by Audi Technologies and/or Andrews Products. Both are not cheap nor for the faint of heart.

As far as cam reading, we do offer the service. Check your PM for contact information. Sorry, we do not have or offer cam catalogs as ALL of our work is done on a one-off, prototype basis.

[Bill Johns]

NC Cams,

Yeah but a person may have some kind of secret they don't want out.
I would never send out my stuff. Reason being, others just don't take care of stuff like I do. Like dragging a part across a concrete floor etc. Or one of the hot talking employees of some out fit, banging or dropping a part, and not taking credit for it. There is a myraid of reasons not to send something to an outfit like yours, and I'm not saying you are like that. Its just a given.

[MrWild]

Hmmmm, so an industrious person couldn't take an encoder to plot the exact possition of a cam, then place an indicater with output directly over dead center, and have the information download to an Excell program that plotted lift to cam angle? From this information, excelleration and other datam becomes simple to extrapolate, dosen't it? This isn't rocket science. College MEs do this sort of thing by their Junior year.

Toss this sort of question to the Baja or Indycar clubs at an engineering college like RIT, MSOE or MIT, (or dozens of others) and you will have a device by the end of the month. No, it isn't simple. It will take basic programming, mechanical know-how, calculus, knowledge of physics, (dynamics) and spreadsheet familiarity. But not impossible. And can be done pretty cheaply. Freshman dynamics courses will cover a lot of this. One project in my freshman class was crank-journal/connecting rod big end excelleration and G forces produced at different RPM and different crank journal locations during the stroke.

With a high resolution encoder and a good indicator you could precisly see if each lobe was where it belonged in relationship to each other. A senior thesis machine for sure. The machine itself would be easier than an aluminum framed router. The wiring would be easier too. All running up into a printer port. Some pins for encoder feedback, and some pins for indicator output. Just the algorithm needs to be figured out. You could either power it by hand or motorize it with a small gear head motor.

Be a lot easier to just pay NC Cams though.

[NC Cams]

MrWild: Yes, all you have to do is to come up with a college kid who cares about cams and/or valvetrain dynamic - haven't found any at the local Big 10 university, they are too busy going after computer science/internet millions to get dirty with race cams.

Yes, there are some seminal SAE articles written on what to do and how to do it, and they were written by the guys who did most of the programming for ALL of the cam companies (to some extent). Sadly, I haven't seen any college kid who even knows how to find the articles let alone assimilate what's in them.

The challenge to cam measuring comes in reverse engineering PROPERLY which seems to be the sticking point of most of the folks who've tried to make a "cam doctor".

The next issue is that of the encoders. Heidenhein makes some bolt in devices. The encoders (linear for lift and rotary for degress) along with the interface card will set you back at least $5000. The programming code to get them to to something costs even more, if you can find someone to do it.

Then there is development of the program itself. When reading a cam, one particularly difficult entity to deal with is base circe runout (BCR) and/or bend in the cam - these entities can and do develop in cams - long story why. The trick in reverse engineering the profile is to read the profile and then sort out the true PROFILE motion from the BCR and/or bend induced false motion. This drives most of the cam reader developers crazy.

The result is that they often "chop off" the low lift as this is where the anomalies are most additive/subtractive to the profile motion - when they do that they also screw up the lift and lobe center finding but who cares?.

This may not be important to the "racer" who only cares about duration at 0.050" and above and/or total lift. However, when you're trying to solve a noise or parts breakage issue or sort out the last bit of performance that relates to ramping strategy or lobe center placement, chopping off the ramp or misplacing the L/C is simply doing a half fast job.

The machine we use doe NOT chop off the ramp and it does understand and deal with the afore mentioned anomalies.

Regarding the "trust" one places in their cam vendor supplier (post #5).

I both understand your position and am highly offended by the blanket inference. SOME cam suppliers, and I do mean some, got into the business by merely doing lame copies of other folks products. We did that too when we started. However, in order to do something better than the next guy, you eventually have to learn how to DESIGN something BETTER than copy cat cam grinders.

When you are a small, boutique cam and valve train engineering supplier, you can NOT afford to be a whore. You have to grind cams not only well but, actually, superbly. Why? Because so little is expected of you. Hence you have to do it better in order to get people to consider you. You're not the first person who's had that opinion of us and won't be the last - that is until you see/experience our product.

Once you get over that hurdle, then the cam supplier has to blow the clients socks off with performance and/or quality just to gain respect not to mettion to develop a higher level of trust and support as well.

Sadly, that lasts until the major cam supplier gives the team a free parts "sponsorship" deal - it seems that free parts go farther than more superbly engineered parts for some strange reason.

In our case, we started off working with racers. Not simply hobby or local racers but actually fully seasoned TRAVELING PRO racers - pro's that are VERY well known. The relationship started out as a "friend helping a friend" - we had friends who built engines for race teams so they got us involved doing cams - they trusted us and staked their reputations as race engine builders on "nobodies" in Michigan. We did not let them down.

We'd be an absolute FOOL to screw up their cams and/or give out any of their cam or valvetrain secrets. Doing so would relegate us into the "whore" category and we'd never see another bit of their business again. Big cam companies can do that, we can't.

We must have served our clients well as we've won 12 NASCAR restrictor plate races during a recent 16 race run. That included nearly 12 different new cam designs of which not a single solitary one was compromised (given out elsewhere) by anyone in our shop.

We also worked with 5 different teams at/around the same time and neither team got ANY inkling of what the other team was doing. Dare I say that if multimillion dollar NASCAR and NHRA teams can/will trust us, why shouldn't an independant motorcycle racer??????

Our cams have been rated as being "jewel like" in quality by the NASCAR, NHRA Pro Stock and Indy car engine builders that we've been working with. Since we also do work for the OEM's in the form of advanced engine prototype cam production, we're also well aware of the quality and accuracy requirements of folks who are even MORE fussy than the most paranoid of racer.

It should also be noted that each and every client we do work for gets the same level of accuracy and/or quality. We don't/won't do one level of work for an OEM, another for a NASCAR team, a different level for NHRA and then a commercial crap level for the hobby racer. There might be production shops who do that but we simply can't and won't do it. The stuff we do is NOT cheap but jewelry usually never is.

Bill, it is too bad that you've been treated so poorly by some of your vendors and now have an attitude as a result. IT is even sadder that you elect to paint all potential vendors with the same brush. With such an attitude, your choices are quite limited especially if you don't/won't trust an outside outfit to do work for you.

At this point, you can either hand map the cam and engineer it yourself (not particularly easy) or buy a cam measuring machine and do it yourself (not cheap).

Your choices at buying a cam doctor are quite limited. A "racer grade" machine can be procured from Audi Technologies. An OEM capable machine of impecable quality can be procured from Andrews Products. Sadly, neither is cheap. Or, you can always take a chance with us.

I'll be sure to sweep the concrete floor first so that when/if the spasdic owners and/or workers inevitably and/or intentionally drop the part that you so naively entrust to us, the piles of debris that you so wrongly percieve as cluttering up our shop will not scratch up your sacred parts as we kick them into the shipping department to send back to you, broken and useless, of course.

Seriously, how do you get work done with an attitude like that???

[9lrac9]

Wow... I'm glad Mr NC Cam your bump stick is so great,you must have the fastest cam on the planet. Are you on PINKS or what. I'm glad about one thing, is that you are sooooo passionate about what you do, and that you know what you are talking about. It is difficult to find others in the know that can appeciate very complex things, without sticking their EGO or their lack of knowledge in it. Others stand in front of their own success, and moan about everything else. Hy my 815cid HEMI is only making 1800 HP on gas with two 4500 dominators do you think you could help me? Just kidding. So what type of CNCdo you have?

9lrac9

[pointcloud]

I'm sold NC... Do you stock any good solid lift 351w ford cams? You know I'd like to build a mini, but I had a 426 stroker, and you got me thinking again.. 600-650hp would be a good number...

Coast proformace made(got?) the last one, 16 years ago..
I think I still have the spec sheet, but I am sure that you (the industry) has outdated it by now...

Marc...

[9lrac9]

NC CAM what brings you to cnc zone? We share here...


9lrac9

[AirChunk]

OK , now let's not get all of our feather's ruffled . I did not intend this post to go this way Basicaly it is realy hard to understand cam dynamics .

[NC Cams]

Please see prior post about where our cams are used. NASCAR is a far cry from PINKS.

With all due respect, one of the better racers on PINKS recently was saying that he was going thru the eyes at 8500 rpm. The NASCAR boys (Cup, Truck and Bush) are regularly turning 9300+ and doing so for 500+ miles. An 8500 rpm 7 second drag engine is comparatively easy to do as compared to what's needed to run 9K plus for 500 consecutive miles and up to 1000 when practice and qualifying are concerned.

Check the records - only 1 team won 12 of 16 restrictor plate races in the 2000 to 2005 seasons and we supplied the cams and engineering for same.

Sorry but we do not "stock" cams. Our stuff is all custom ground and engineered from billet. We had to go to the specialty market because you can't compete with the likes of Comp or Crane with their low priced, high volume production cams. We simply couldnot afford to spend the time to grind an iron cam, sell it for the $120 to $150 that the name grinders do and stay in business.

Besides, for the RPM's the pro's are turning, most of the production grinds are either not suited or not "custom" enough for the pro racer. Moreover, the iron cams and even some of the billet cams are barely adequate, life wise, anymore - the engines have gotten that radical.

The 351 based 355's used in NASCAR are readily capable of 700+ hp (single 4bbl, on gas). RPMs regularly range from 6000 to 9300+ and more at short tracks like Martinsville. WIth multiple carbs or F/I, you probably would not have to turn one that hard. Bump it up to 420+ cid and you coult probably get by at 7500 to 8000 and live fairly well.

Regardless, plan on lots of $$$'s for valve hardware (IE: titanium valves, JEsel shaft type rockers, Jesel rollers, etc) and especially springs (PSI or ISky tool room at least). The 'Cup stuff is very good and very, very pricey stuff - but that's what it takes to run that strong and that hard.

Yes, cam dynamics is not a good DIY project. It takes quite a bit to learn what's what and how to properly integrate the stuff. If you want a generic cam that quite possibly might be nothing more than what's being sold in the the latest magazine article, just about any of the major cam grinders can help you with good to great results.

However, the chances of buying a bunch of catalog parts and screwing together an engine that will turn 9K RELIABLY is very very difficult.

If you're looking for something totally special and custom engineered (including the lateest in tool steel billets), that's the type of cams we supply - and the ONLY type we supplly. WE do work very closely with discriminating engine builders.

However, we don't offer phone support to guys who are simply looking for recommendations - the major suppliers do a good job of that as they have the staff to do so. We simply make and engineer cams. WE do provide a detaile explanation of what the data means to clients who purchase a full blown cam analysis. A summary is provide to clients who simply ask that the cam be "read".

Finally, why do I come to CNC ZOne? To share information when/where I can and to provide correct information when bogus or misleading is foisted off as "fact". Perhaps by shariing what I know I can prevent someone from having some of the negative I experiences I had as a result of doing things wrong or being given improper aid as we've all surely encountered.

BTW, 1800 hp out of a normally aspritated 815 cid engine on gas seems rather tame. Why? 500 inch, normally aspritated NHRA pro stockers on gas are in the 1500-1600 hp range and are turnin 10K plus rpm.

WIth nearly 63% more cubes and only making 11% to 20% more hp than a 500" pro stock engine, you might want to look elsewhere for more power from your 815.

[9lrac9]

Hey AirChunk, No feathers ruffled here. I left my ego and greed at the front door before I entered the CNC Zone I'm here to learn, chat with others on the things I like and what I'm doing with my cnc and if I can, help others with their problems as others have helped me when I had problems with mastercam or my controller or my machine... It's all good on the zone, just some are better than others. Here is the best for last, my friend has not 1 but 100 1/3 scale small blocks chevys, cast iron blocks, cranks,steel front covers, oil pans, cast irons heads, and is now working on the intake system. He does need some one to grind the cams. The blocks are 9 inches long and they are 4 bolt blocks. The main caps look like the belong on a key chain. Some are so gifted. I think their to small to run Nascar, maybe and 1/3 race track with 1/3 drivers and where do we find them?


9lrac9

[9lrac9]

NCCAMS, The motor I'm talking about is a Jon Kaase 815CID Hemi used for IHRA pro/stock. Cars are capable of 6, teens at 220MPH, not bad for a hand built motor/ Yes NHRA has some Killer 500 CID motors and equally impressive engine builders. But the excitment of standing next to 815CID fired up nothing compares.


9lrac9

[9lrac9]

NCCAMS if you can help me with mastercam, and help with a little programming, I can save you from having to type long respones. It's all fun here. Are you sure you don't work for carcraft mag. as a writer.

9lrac9
PS I hope you smile as your typing. I know I'am...

[pointcloud]

.

9lrac9
PS I hope you smile as your typing. I know I'am...

@9lrac9 Sounds like your gritting your teeth?

@9lrac9 Your freind that has 100 1/3 scale motors... Well, completed and running will sell new for $13,500.00. The conley mini V8, it's on the net (they may be drastically different from your buddy's).. He'd be a good guy to keep as a freind, he's got the cash that's for sure...


@NC CAMS... I am interested, but I have my hands full of other projects.. I would like to know more of what you know... Yes this time I want a more trust worthy engine.. The other would turn 8500-9, but I am 100% sure it would not have lasted on a 7000 mile road trip west coast and back... That motor was in a car I worked off and on for 7 years, it was a falcon sprint 65'. All tube car, no good for the road either...I ran low-9's high 8's 1/4 miles in Commerce (atlanta dragway)...

[AirChunk]

I appreciate the iformation , NC Cams!

[9lrac9]

Pointcloud... I'm not gritting my teeth. I'm to old for that anymore. I'm just trying to learn MasterCam. I'm only 59 and I have had my fun... Now I want to be serious about my CNC and the clever things I can make with my CNC. 28 years as a MIL1595 welder and Tool and Die Maker. I just want to know what the heck are all these buttons for, where is the handles on this CNC... Just kidding... What do you have that reads pointclouds?

[pointcloud]

Rhino...

You should just be starting to have fun?

Out...

[NC Cams]

Airchunk: our cam analysis can be quite inciteful - well worth the expense, especially to the novice engine builder. Give us a call. Look for NC Cams in the Ann Arbor MI phone book.

Our knowledge base of drag, oval, marine, off road and, yes, even street engine applications does enable us to help a novice engine builder "home in" on a combination quickly and effectively. We know what works and, more importantly, what doesn't.

9lrac9: the mountain motors are defininitely impressive. However anything that big SHOULD run fast and hard. Not being as invovled with drag racing as I am with oval track/endurance racing, I'm probably using the proportionality factor wrong, as in how much faster/quicker a 815 should be as compared to a 500.

There are definitely 2 schools of racing: run what you brung and rules containing.

I guess that as an engineer, I found more of a challenge in working within highly containing rules as opposed to simply being bigger and better packages. I will recognize the fact that making a 815 poses a major MAJOR challenge. Fitting that much of anything into a confined space is HARD. I'm always amazed at what the guys can get away with in the mountain motor realm.

Pointcloud: what do you wan't/need to know? More importantly, how much do you have to spend? For most engine work, a well integrated cam from one of the major suppliers will run quite well for 5-7000 miles. The biggest problem guys have is that they often choose the wrong parts, or worse yet, the high school kid on the tech line recommends the wrong parts.

Example: some guy asks for and is given a a monster cam so he can have a bad-a$$ rumpy idle makes some bad choices. That big of a cam won't run until 5-7000 rpm, if at all. We proved that in some OMB cams that I did for a noted aftermarket supplier of aftermarket race parts back in the early 80's.

The cams idled like puppies but, from 3000 rpm up, they were ballistic. The biggest complaint: "it doesn't sound like it has a cam". I found this to be an oxymoron. Did you buy the cam to make noise in the pits or win rounds on the track?

In one particular car, the guy who tested the parts literally got laughed at when he unloaded the car and tooled around the pits. The competitors quit laughing as his low buck, flat tappet cam equipped big block bracket car ran 10.20's like clock work, made final round eliminations for the next 4-6 weeks and he didn't spend a dime replacing parts and pocketed lots of round money - much more, in fact, than he did with his "bottom of the page roller".

His roller cam did run 9.90's but, BUT he was always feeding it springs and never seemed to not be working on the car. It got to be funny as in he was ultimately the one who was laughing. Whereas the competitors laughed as he initially drove the "puppy idle" car to staging, he got the last laugh in the pay line and while he sat in a lqwn chair between rounds while his buddies were thrashing away keeping their cars running. BTW, you should have seen the heads turn when the engine hit 3500 - with the duration and lobe center combo we had, the darn thing started sounded like cannons going off as the thing went from from 3500 to 7500 as the car launched.

I guess we just didn't understand the over rated importance of profiling when we did those parts.....

The thought of building and 815 reminds me of the 420" small blocks that Jack Conely out of Brighton, MI made for oval track racing back in the late 70's/early 80's. Real bullets and a packaging nightmare as this was back when special blocks and cranks were not that easy to come buy (sic). These BIG mouse motors gave 454-472 big block Chevy's fits back in the day.