[Shotout]

I've recently been given the added duty of quoting some of the jobs for the machine shop and with barely a years experience in this trade I am finding it difficult to do so correctly. I have a general template (excel) to follow but the actual machine time is what is killing me. I don't have enough experience to fall back on to estimate the time require to machine certain parts. I had thought about calculating the material to remove from a given piece of stock, metal removal rate and going from there, but that is a lot of calculations for some of these parts and I really don't have the time to spend in the office rather than on the shop floor. Can anyone give me some general guide lines/advice on this? Until our new salesman starts a month from next Monday I'm going to be doing it and am expected to help him after he starts. Thanks
Scott

[big_mak]

Sorry Scott, but that is one of the hardest things to do. Especially since you haven't got much experience.

Don't forget to figure in consumables and such.

Sorry I'm not of much help here.

[Shotout]

Big Mak

I understand that! I appreciate the thoughts. They have a set percentage they use for everything but T.P. for consumables, however the tooling % is only 2% of the materials + labor so I've been actually looking up tooling so we don't get caught short there, but the boss doesn't understand when I say I'm not comfortable quoting this or that. I just don't know and he smiles and says just figure it up. I use to only worry about being over my head on the actual machine work, oh those halcyon days!

Scott

[BlueChip]

Estimating software gives you the ability to more or less follow a set pattern so you don't forget any areas like tooling, etc.. Not to mention that cycletime estimating software can do the calculations for you based on set database information ( gives you consistency along with accuracy ). My opinion would be that a machine shop based quoting software will aide a lot.

Maybe a help :

KipwareQTE - Machine Shop Job Costing & Estimating Software
KipwareCYC - Machining CycleTime Estimating Software

.... info, demos at www.KentechInc.com.

[Shotout]

Thanks I'll check out the demos this weekend

Scott

Estimating software gives you the ability to more or less follow a set pattern so you don't forget any areas like tooling, etc.. Not to mention that cycletime estimating software can do the calculations for you based on set database information ( gives you consistency along with accuracy ). My opinion would be that a machine shop based quoting software will aide a lot.

Maybe a help :

KipwareQTE - Machine Shop Job Costing & Estimating Software
KipwareCYC - Machining CycleTime Estimating Software

.... info, demos at www.KentechInc.com.

[big_mak]

Blue,

If this shop owner actually has a one year guy doing estimates, do you really think he's gonna spring for a $800 software package?

[Geof]

You have been there are year so obviously a variety of work has gone through the shop in that time. Are good records kept for the actual time taken on a job? Not the (imaginary) time that was put in the estimate; the real time that it took. Can you get hold of these records, the original estimates and the prints or files for the parts?

If you can get hold of these you can possibly derive some guidelines that you can use; how long does a typical setup take for a particular type of part, what is the machining time for operations that are somewhat similar, how much tooling was consumed. How far away, plus or minus, was the actual time from the estimated time, and the actual cost, when materials and tooling are taken into account, from the estimated cost. Do particular types of parts always fall on one side or the other.

If good records for tracking what was done and how long it took have not been kept you must start keeping them for the jobs you deal with.

To some extent you are in a non-win situation so expect to get flak. If you estimate too high and the job goes someplace else you will be blamed for turning away work; if you estimate too low and things take longer than estimated you will be blamed for losing the company money. You are going to have to grin and bear it.

[jackson]

Geof is right on the money (as usual) not knowing exactly how your shop works its hard to say, we now have a system in place that takes most the guess work out of it, but how i use to do it was by starting with your base shop rate witch i assume you have and if you have been in the shop you should have some idea of the time it takes to machine parts if not ask some of your co workers same goes for tool usage they should have a pretty good idea of time, that give you a starting point then you have to figure the cost of your tooling, your scap(shavings) ext then break it down for price per part and it also all depends on the amount of parts, smaller the quantity the higher the price per part the larger the quantity its less per part.

[BlueChip]

Big_Mak,

It's gonna cost him a hell of a lot more than $800 if they win a quote that was done with incorrect figures !!!!! ... and that could easily be just one job ... you could multiply that if it gets more than one. Shops break cutting tools that cost more than $800 sometimes after only a few cuts.

What's the old saying : "Sometimes you gotta spend money to make money".

Unfortunately, too many manufacturers THROW money at problems because "people" tell them the latest and greatest will solve their problems rather than really investigating what they need ... this appears to be money well spent.

[jackson]

Big_Mak,

It's gonna cost him a hell of a lot more than $800 if they win a quote that was done with incorrect figures !!!!! ... and that could easily be just one job ... you could multiply that if it gets more than one. Shops break cutting tools that cost more than $800 sometimes after only a few cuts.

What's the old saying : "Sometimes you gotta spend money to make money".

Unfortunately, too many manufacturers THROW money at problems because "people" tell them the latest and greatest will solve their problems rather than really investigating what they need ... this appears to be money well spent.

Well im not sure Kentech is the way to go either. kind like the old saying goes you get what you pay for.

[BlueChip]

Do you have personal experience? ... if so, share it ... if not ... ?????
Is it necessary to degrade the conversation?

It's not about Kentech ... it was an idea tossed into the ring to give some thought. That idea being that PC based software might be an option to pursue ... whether it's "what you get" for $800 or what you get for $2000. Maybe it's time the shop spent the $2000 ... maybe it's time they at least spent something ... sound like they might need it ... that's all.

[jackson]

Do you have personal experience? ... if so, share it ... if not ... ?????
Is it necessary to degrade the conversation?

It's not about Kentech ... it was an idea tossed into the ring to give some thought. That idea being that PC based software might be an option to pursue ... whether it's "what you get" for $800 or what you get for $2000. Maybe it's time the shop spent the $2000 ... maybe it's time they at least spent something ... sound like they might need it ... that's all.

Well i wasn't saying it was not the right system for them i said it may not be, and yes i do have some experience with it and it did not suit me not saying it wouldn't work. and yes i think in this day and age having a system is the way to go but you also have to understand some companies just arn't ready to jump into that. they have been quoting for years without it and just dont feel it is what they need to spend money on weather it be $100 or $1000

[NC Cams]

I got tossed out into to a shop environment when I was a PM for a prototyping firm. At the time I was a book smart, customer savy, "service engineer" who got thrust into quoting jobs, managing them and subsequently being responsible for the profit of same. I'd never done any job quoting let alone protype parts machining and fabrication work.

I found that the shop guys, especially my shop foreman (we hated each other at first) were very valuable assets. I'd go to him, ask how much time HE needed to do the job right and he'd usually help me quote the job and any special tools/procedures we might need. THere were fights as the personalities clashed/meshed but we got past that. The advice of a 20year self admitted "shop rat" can come in handy, especially when/if you use and respect it. He was tremendously good at knowing both what to do and what NOT do do when it came to removing/shaping metal.

There were times when he tried to pad the bill for gravy for his guys. At first, he'd get it thru but, as time went on, you could see it coming a mile away. There were also times however when my prior experiences in other regimes came in handy - the old, "have you ever done THIS instead of THAT" came in handy. We both learned and did a lot of new things as a result.

Point is, when you ask and involve EXPERIENCED co-workers, you often do something that management DOESN'T do, namely LISTEN. You subsequently learn. You also, and more importantly gain the respect and support of your peers which is critical. Also, since they now have a stake in the process, they want/need to show that they can do the job like they said they could. Honorable guys who are good machinists are just that way.

The PM job was many years ago. I went on to other things not the least of which was the creation of NC Cams. The shop rat shop foreman is now the VP of manufacturing for his firm. When he learned I was the one running NC Cams, he called me for help with a project he was quoting - he refused to deal with the the guy who used to run NC. That was nearly 8 years ago and now we're pretty much his exclusive prototype cam house.

Just the other day, I was at his place in a meeting. The engineers were being engineers and they couldn't see why I'd leave 0.020" grind stock on a surface. I quoted the VP's comment to me many years earlier, "I"d rather be looking AT material than looking FOR it later on" Besides, I have a wheel that can/will shread material like soft cheese so it is not a problem.

The enigineers were held sway and the VP smiled knowingly because he was the guy who taught me that axiom....

It's amazing how somethings work out when your properly involve you coworkers. After all, you both just need each other....

[One of Many]

The "EXPERIENCE" factor as expressed by both NC Cams and Geof goes to show us that it does not need to be your experience, but how you can gather others together to make up for where you lack the direct knowledge, but know where to find it to derive success as a group from all the resources at hand.

I have worked in shops where the planner that sequences and quotes a job can make or break the profit margins with the stroke of a pen. Some think they know better how the job should flow and take no time to worry how reality on the floor replaces fictional dreams to the arrogance and ignorance from not asking those that must do the work in areas they don't often have exposure to.

If you can create a sequence the part could be completed by following and gaining trust from the shop floor by following their lead in the beginning. You can then do some time studies on your own to apply labor, tooling and overhead to the quote with some form of confidence in quality, quantity and delivery. If you treat that process like it were your money on the line, then the motivation to learn it and learn it well may some day be your money.

DC

[Geof]

Question for the ones suggesting software for managing quotes and operations.

Do any of the systems 'learn'? What I mean is can you put in 'experience' and have the software modify its output. Or do they just use stock formulae and give average solutions?

[jackson]

Question for the ones suggesting software for managing quotes and operations.

Do any of the systems 'learn'? What I mean is can you put in 'experience' and have the software modify its output. Or do they just use stock formulae and give average solutions?

Yes, actually ours you can add for your material increase and you cycle times set up times delivery coast over head and you can adjust for what ever you need so it will adjust or learn as you put it, i actually only quote cycle and set up times now, I mean its not actually quoting i figure the time and then add it to the system and it figures all the rest,

CUSTOMER MANAGEMENT


* Customer Maintenance
* Customer Monitoring
* Customer Report
* Customer Mail Labels
* Customer Efficiency Report
* Invoice Maintenance
* Post/Unpost Invoices



* Batch Invoice Report
* Invoice Listing Report
* Sales Report
* Sales History Report
* Cost of Sales Report
* Sales Shipped Summary Report
* Discount Table

QUOTATIONS (Job Estimating)


* Quotation Maintenance
* Multiple Materials Quotations
* Detailed Quotation Report
* Quotation Listing Report
* Process Plan Report
* Material Requirements Report
* Material Supplier Worksheets
* Request for Supplier Quote
* No Quote Report
* Customer Price Quotation Report



* Customer Master Quotation
* Product Structure Maintenance
* Parts Master Maintenance
* Rollup Costs
* Parts Master Report
* Bill of Materials Report
* Bill of Materials Summary Report
* Product Structure Report
* Where Used Report
* Make/Buy Report
* B.O.M. Request for Quote

ORDERS AND RELEASES


* Sales Order Maintenance
* Sales Order Monitoring
* Weekly Customer Delivery Schedule Gantt Chart
* Customer Del'y Schedule Gantt Chart
* Batch Sales Order Acknowledgement
* Batch Sales Pick List Report
* Sales Commissions Report
* Sales Outstanding Report




* Sales Order Listing Report
* Sales Order Release Summary Report
* Customer Delivery Schedule Report
* Projected Sales by Sales Order Report Backlog Report
* Back Order Listing Report
* Forecast vs. Actual Sales Order Report
* Forecasted Sales Order Report
* Detailed Sales Order Releases Report


SHOP ORDERS


* Shop Order and Release Maintenance
* Shop Order Production Monitoring
* Shop Order Costs Monitoring
* Shop Order Listing Report
* Shop Order Cost Details Report
* Detailed Shop Order Report
* Open Releases Report
* Shop Order Release Status Report
* Detailed Release Report




* Work in Process Report
* Work in Process Costs Report
* Shop Order Recap Report
* Projected Sales by Shop Order Report
* Late Jobs Report
* Time & Materials Report
* Shop Order Profit Margin Report
* Resin Labor Efficiency Report
* Resin Formulation Screen


OPERATION SCHEDULING


* Automatic Order Scheduling
* Schedule Maintenance
* Visual Shop Management
* Drag and Drop Scheduling
* Scheduling Calendar
* Operations Monitoring
* Shop Schedule
* Schedule Listing Report




* Scheduling Worksheet Report
* Detailed Schedule Report
* Schedule Calendar Report
* Workcenter Loading Report
* Routing Report
* Gantt Chart Report
* Workcenter Backlog Report
* Workload Report

PRODUCTION MANAGEMENT


* Job Card Maintenance
* Batch Job Card Processor
* Daily Production Monitoring
* Daily Operator Monitoring
* In-Process Monitoring
* Daily Production Report
* Daily Operator Report
* Production Tracking Report




* Downtime Problems Report
* Scrap Summary Report
* Rework Summary Report
* Review Summary Report
* Weekly Efficiency Report
* Daily Production Worksheet
* Shop Order Hours Report
* Assigned vs. Unassigned Hours Report
* Daily Employee Report
* Weekly Employee Report

USER MAINTAINED DATABASE FILES


* Company
* Users
* Employees
* Notes Library Maintenance
* Divisions
* Departments
* Scheduling Groups
* Workcenters
* Inventory Locations
* Inventory Box Types
* Default Calendar Hours
* Company Holidays
* Inventory Types
* Product Categories
* Product Codes



* Defect Codes
* Material Types
* Material Weights
* Machining Categories
* Tool Material Types
* Tools
* Chip Calculator Shapes
* Distribution Codes
* Statuses
* Price Units
* Payment Terms
* Ship Via
* Sales Taxes
* Operations Master Library
* Resin Additives

MATERIAL MANAGEMENT


* Inventory Maintenance
* Inventory Monitoring
* Update Finished Goods Cost
* Inventory Listing Report
* Inventory Lots Listing Report
* Detailed Inventory Report
* Inventory Reorder Report
* Inventory Usage Report
* Inventory Valuation Report
* Price List Report
* Lot/Heat Tracking Report
* Inventory Labels
* Purge Inventory Journal
* Inventory Turnover Report
* Historical Inventory Requirements Calculator
* Future Inventory Requirements Calculator
* Inventory Bag Labels




* Inventory Selling Price Change
* Standard Inventory Items Report
* Shipment Maintenance
* Shipment Listing Report
* Shipping Requirements Report
* Shipping List
* Shipping Labels
* Packing List Report
* Bill of Lading Report
* Receiving Maintenance
* Receiving Report
* Receiving Log
* Certification
* Inspection
* Inspection Instructions
* Inspection Methods
* AQL Levels/Tables
* Inspection Numbers
* Certification Note

VENDOR MAINTENANCE


* Vendor Maintenance
* Vendor Monitoring
* Vendor Invoice Maintenance
* Vendor Report
* Vendor Labels
* Vendor Efficiency Report
* Purchase Order Maintenance
* Purchase Order Monitoring
* Inventory-Based P.O. Generator
* Materials Worksheet-Based P.O. Generator




* BOM-Based P.O. Generator
* Purchase Order Listing Report
* Batch Purchase Order Report
* Vendor Delivery Schedule Report
* P.O. Expenditure Forecast Report
* Change P.O. Materials Costs
* Post/Unpost Vendor Invoices
* Purchases Report
* Materials On Order Report
* P.O. Outside Work Status Report
* Materials Worksheet RFQ


OTHER KEY FEATURES


* Bar Coding
* Remote Time Card/Job Card Entry

[JROM]

Geof has the right idea.
Your between a hard spot and a rock right now. But if you start keeping records of what you quoted and what your real cost was pretty soon you'll have a good feel for the differance between what you think when you first see a job and what really happened. You have seen shops that keep one of every job they cut, well there is a good reason for doing that because your new job may be just like one you've already run. I tend to figure things down to the bone but I have learned to pad my quotes by about 20% just to make sure I don't lose my butt! Good luck!

[Shotout]

Blue,

If this shop owner actually has a one year guy doing estimates, do you really think he's gonna spring for a $800 software package?

Forest for the trees. This is simply everyone pitching in while we are without an outside salesman. I'm the only machinist, hired to replace an employee that quit when he left the area, I had graduated but hadn't completed my CNC spec certificate when I was hired. Honestly money isn't that much of an issue believe it or not.

[Shotout]

Geof
Records are kept but it seems no one does anything with them. I don't have access to them other than recording my time on the work order form which is turned in. When I asked about it I was told not to worry about it. I do know I am underestimating the time required to blank stock out a lot of the time.

As to keeping them I am working on a excel sheet after reading what you typed. I took the bid sheet we use, turned it into a spreadsheet so I know have a record of bids I write so I can start tracking it.

as to the no win, that is what I was afraid of, at least they pay me well. I talked to the owner about feeling uncomfortable quoting these jobs but he really didn't seem to be concerned about it. Just smiled and told me not to worry about it. Like that is possible.

Scott

[Geof]

Yes, actually ours you can add for your material increase and you cycle times.......etc etc...

I am glad I don't need to worry about all the stuff I deleted from the quote above.

I just wander into the "Financial Comptroller"'s office and ask if we have more money in the bank at the end of the month than we did at the beginning.

However, on a serious note, many years ago I did compile detailed time records for everything we make. My guys filled out the start and stop time for each individual operation on dozens of parts over a period of about 18 months. I then analysed everything and compared my 'off-the-top-of-the-head' selling price with what I should charge to make an acceptable profit. On average we were making money (but I knew that because we had money in the bank); some individual items were losing money and some had a very healthy margin.

It was a tedious thing to do but well worth it because whenever we introduce a new part the price is just derived from the prices for parts with similar manufacturing operations.