[crjohnson]

Hi guys,
I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
Cheers,
Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I personally don't like the el-cheapo Chinese made stuff, I don't care how cheap it is it's just too inclined to blow up.

I do favor Delta however. It's a Taiwanese brand made in China and I've had excellent results with Delta products, and they have been
manufacturing industrial electronics for many years. Admittedly not as cheap as the bargain basement Chinese crap but fair prices none the less.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

To be honest I don't think its the output specification you should be worried about but rather the input current.

All VFDs suck a huge amount of current out of the supply. If you comb through the specs you will find that the power factor is about 0.55 to 0.6.
The input current from a single phase 230V supply to a VFD producing 2.2kW is:

I= 2200 / (0.55 x 230)
=17.4A

And that is about as much as you could reasonably expect from a domestic single phase outlet.

You might ask 'why is the power factor so low?'. Electronic devices like VFD's get their DC power supply by rectifying and smoothing with electrolytic capacitors
the incoming AC supply. As a result the device draws current from the supply in very short extremely intensive current bursts. The current demand is highly distorted from
its pure sinusoid shape and this in turn causes such a poor power factor.

There are a number of ways to combat such a poor power factor:
1) Just don't care, it will mean that you probably have to run a bigger electrical cable from the switchboard to the machine with a bigger circuit breaker or fuse.
Many don't even bother with a new and bigger cable but risk the existing cable overheating or even catching fire.
2) Use a line reactor. A line reactor is a coil of wire on a transformer core, typically about 10mH for a single phase supply. A line reactor on its own
will improve the power factor to about 0.85-0.9, so a very worthwhile improvement. If you buy secondhand you could get one for under $100
3) Use a high end VFD that has built in electronic power factor correction. Many top end European, US and Japanese brands include an electronic boost
circuit that improves power factor to about 0.95. You can expect to pay for it....

For the power levels we are talking about a line reactor is a cost effective solution.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,



To be honest I don't think its the output specification you should be worried about but rather the input current.

All VFDs suck a huge amount of current out of the supply. If you comb through the specs you will find that the power factor is about 0.55 to 0.6.
The input current from a single phase 230V supply to a VFD producing 2.2kW is:

I= 2200 / (0.55 x 230)
=17.4A

And that is about as much as you could reasonably expect from a domestic single phase outlet.

You might ask 'why is the power factor so low?'. Electronic devices like VFD's get their DC power supply by rectifying and smoothing with electrolytic capacitors
the incoming AC supply. As a result the device draws current from the supply in very short extremely intensive current bursts. The current demand is highly distorted from
its pure sinusoid shape and this in turn causes such a poor power factor.

There are a number of ways to combat such a poor power factor:
1) Just don't care, it will mean that you probably have to run a bigger electrical cable from the switchboard to the machine with a bigger circuit breaker or fuse.
Many don't even bother with a new and bigger cable but risk the existing cable overheating or even catching fire.
2) Use a line reactor. A line reactor is a coil of wire on a transformer core, typically about 10mH for a single phase supply. A line reactor on its own
will improve the power factor to about 0.85-0.9, so a very worthwhile improvement. If you buy secondhand you could get one for under $100
3) Use a high end VFD that has built in electronic power factor correction. Many top end European, US and Japanese brands include an electronic boost
circuit that improves power factor to about 0.95. You can expect to pay for it....

For the power levels we are talking about a line reactor is a cost effective solution.

Craig

That is an incorrect number you are using to determine the input current for single phase use

[crjohnson]

The 'rated amps' figures I mentioned were VFD output amps, not input. So if the spindle is rated at 5.8amps and the VFD can supply up to 10 or 15, then either of those drives should be fine to run the spindle (as seen on 100's of build out there).

I have some idea of the concept of power factors, we use DC drives at work to run large electromagnets. I've seen that running the drives at say 50% of their max output creates a very low power factor, but they get much better when running closer to their max. capacity which is partly why I am asking if I should NOT bother with a 3.7kw VFD.

I'm also interested to see what brands other people have run on spindles with operate at higher Hz. I wondered if Fuling were ok since G-penny is a popular spindle supplier around here.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

they get much better when running closer to their max. capacity which is partly why I am asking if I should NOT bother with a 3.7kw VFD.

With respect to VFD's the power factor is dominated by the 'harmonic distortion current' whereas many other industrial devices, particularly induction motors are dominated by 'displacement current'.
The amount of distortion a VFD presents to the line is closely related to its current draw. Thus in operation I would expect a 2.2kW inverter running at full load to produce the SAME harmonic current
as a 3.7kW inverter running the same motor at the same load. The only advantage I see about the larger inverter is that the output IGBT's would, presumably, be somewhat less stressed.
Note however that a domestic single phase supply is going to limit the potential output of any inverter, once the input circuit breaker opens, it stops, no matter whether it be a 2.2kW or a 3.7kW
inverter.

For EITHER a line reactor will help.

My own Delta inverters are 400Hz units, but they do various models, up to 2000Hz.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi guys,
I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
Cheers,
Craig

I think you made a mistake it should be 800Hz for a 4 Pole 24000

Yes that VFD 15A should be fine you don't have many choices when it comes to 800Hz spindle motors

[mactec54]

Hi guys,
I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
Cheers,
Craig

Before you jump into the VFD Drive it wants to have sensorless vector control option, for this spindle, most VFD Drive manufactures have high frequency Drives the cost is the biggest problem with the high end VFD Drives

Look for the input Amp Rating of the VFD Drive this is the important part when using single phase power supply, for the motor you are using with a 5.8A rated spindle motor, so you would need the VFD Drive input rating to be between 12A and 15A 15A being the best choice

The Fuling are sensorless vector control but just check if you do buy this VFD Drive as it may change by model

As for auto tuning most have trouble with the High frequency spindles Auto tuning it is never protected by a pass word so where ever you heard this it is Bs

[crjohnson]

Hi Mactec, thank you for getting back to me, I noticed you were the VFD expert but your inbox was full.

The motor is actually 21000RPM and 700Hz, my mistake.. I read about the password auto tuning on this forum, if I can find it again, I'll re-read it and check.

How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part? I'll ask G-Penny for some more info and a user manual and report back.

If Fuling's quality is on par with say Huanyang then it looks like I'll end up going with them (pending review of the rest of the specs..)

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part?

Your right, the output current is what does the business on the spindle, the problem is that most domestic supplies cannot supply the current
required by the VFD, or at least without stressing the wiring.

If you have an electrican fit a new cable and breaker to supply 25A or 32A then that issue goes away.

Even with a dedicated high current supply a line reactor goes a long way to taming the input demand. Its for this reason that most VFD
manufacturers mention them.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,

Your right, the output current is what does the business on the spindle, the problem is that most domestic supplies cannot supply the current
required by the VFD, or at least without stressing the wiring. Craig

That is incorrect information, the output Amps is to suit the motor being used, for Single Phase use the input Amp rating of the VFD Drive is what is important as the input Electronics Diodes Etc. of the VFD Drive have to be rated to more than 1/3 greater than for 3Ph use, or they will fail here is an example from a different VFD Drive showing the input Amp Rating for Single Phase use, most times buying a larger Hp rated VFD Drive solves this problem also for Single Phase use

A line Reactor is not needed if he is using an EMI Power Filter this will do a better job than the Reactor you keep talking about

[mactec54]

Hi Mactec, thank you for getting back to me, I noticed you were the VFD expert but your inbox was full.

The motor is actually 21000RPM and 700Hz, my mistake.. I read about the password auto tuning on this forum, if I can find it again, I'll re-read it and check.

If someone uses a Password then all Parameters are locked until the Password is used to unlock the drive, My advice unless you are in an industrial environment where someone can fool with the Drive settings never use a Password

How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part? I'll ask G-Penny for some more info and a user manual and report back.

Most VFD Drives there output Amp rating is for 3Phase power being supplied to the VFD Drive, the Electronic components that are in the input side of the VFD Drive are rated for that Amperage use, so when you use Single Phase these electronics parts are not rated for the extra Amps needed for Single Phase use and they fail if not sized correctly, a snip below is the information you need to see if the input amp rating of the VFD Drive is suitable for Single Phase use

If Fuling's quality is on par with say Huanyang then it looks like I'll end up going with them (pending review of the rest of the specs..)

Fuling VFD Drives where much better than the Huanyang in the beginning today the Fuling has been known to be very reliable, but also can fail just as anything if incorrectly used

[mactec54]

Hi Mactec, thank you for getting back to me, I noticed you were the VFD expert but your inbox was full.

The motor is actually 21000RPM and 700Hz, my mistake.. I read about the password auto tuning on this forum, if I can find it again, I'll re-read it and check.

How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part? I'll ask G-Penny for some more info and a user manual and report back.

If Fuling's quality is on par with say Huanyang then it looks like I'll end up going with them (pending review of the rest of the specs..)

No my inbox is not full may be you PM was too long

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

A line Reactor is only needed when the cable between the Motor and VFD Drive are over 50 feet

It is recommended to use a load side reactor if the cable between the VFD and spindle motor is over 50feet. A line side reactor is a different beast.

The attached screen shot comes from a Yaskawa application note.

It compares a VFD without either a line reactor, with or without a DCLink choke. Clearly there is a huge reduction in harmonic distortion with either a DCLink choke OR a line side reactor
and even better with both.

If OP is concerned that the bare VFD may stress the power supply then fitting a line side reactor will reduce the harmonic distortion by half just like that and thereby improve the PF.

Attachment 468800

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,



It is recommended to use a load side reactor if the cable between the VFD and spindle motor is over 50feet. A line side reactor is a different beast.

The attached screen shot comes from a Yaskawa application note.

It compares a VFD without either a line reactor, with or without a DCLink choke. Clearly there is a huge reduction in harmonic distortion with either a DCLink choke OR a line side reactor
and even better with both.

If OP is concerned that the bare VFD may stress the power supply then fitting a line side reactor will reduce the harmonic distortion by half just like that and thereby improve the PF.

Attachment 468800

Craig

And the correct EMI Power Filter I recommend does a better job than this line reactor

Posting information from the likes of Yaskawa or from any Drive manufacture, you first have to have an understanding of the subject and have experience with this, before you post something you know nothing about

[StrawberryBoi]

And the correct EMI Power Filter I recommend does a better job than this line reactor

Posting information from the likes of Yaskawa or from any Drive manufacture, you first have to have an understanding of the subject and have experience with this, before you post something you know nothing about

Which EMI filter did you recommend? Was it in PM or another thread? I'm curious for my own projects.

[StrawberryBoi]

Or you need a more pricey VFD with Power Factor Correction (PFC). I don't know that they exist in the size or price range you're looking at.

[crjohnson]

While waiting for G-Penny's reply, I found another model of Fuling VFD which mentions:
"Two speed control modes: no PG vector control (SVC), V/F control

- No PG vector control (SVC): starting torque 0.5Hz up to 150%"


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...35877bbbsMiQk7

[mactec54]

While waiting for G-Penny's reply, I found another model of Fuling VFD which mentions:
"Two speed control modes: no PG vector control (SVC), V/F control

- No PG vector control (SVC): starting torque 0.5Hz up to 150%"


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...35877bbbsMiQk7

You want to use vector control for your spindle, it will be much smoother running and have better low speed torque

[crjohnson]

Ok so G-Penny sent me a user manual for the BD600 VFD which has SVC vector control (I'm assuming SVC means "sensorless vector control"??) . If anyone wants a copy let me know and I can email it over.

Rated input current for the 2.2kW VFD (with vector control, link below), is 23Amps, the manual doesn't list the 3.7kW unit in the single phase input table. Any idea when it would actually draw that much current? During ramp up or when the spindle is actually under full load? If the spindle is only rated to <6Amps, would the VFD still only draw around 14amps?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7fac7bbbQaYW9r

Still interested to know if anyone has used one of these Fuling (or Folinn) VFD's and if it would be suitable for my spindle. Cheers