[RufusToad]

Well that's great, I'm more confused now than I was when I started this freaking post. If people would stop telling everyone how good they think they are and hurling insults at others maybe someone like myself might actually learn something.

I'm 100% sure it's capable of doing a great for it's intended use.
Since I cant get any good info anywhere else then that's all I can ask for. As I stated before the VFD is temporary and if I need to purchase something better after I get everything hooked up and learned I will definitely do so. I have less than $1K in this entire set up. I want to understand how to get a VFD and spindle working on this table and working with Mach4. Didn't think it would be as difficult as people make it out to be.

[RufusToad]

Thank you for those that want to help others to learn!!

[RufusToad]

VFD / Motor power:

Power (watts) = volts x current

You have a spindle which will consume a certain amount of power (e.g. 3.8kw).

You need a VFD that is rated for 3.8kw or more.

The VFD input components must also be able to handle the current required.
It must also be rated for the correct voltage.

With three phase input, the current is spread over three phases - three conductors/components on the VFD input side.
Feed it single phase only and all current has to go through a single conductor / components on the VFD input side.

Single phase current is about 1.72 times three phase current.

Smaller VFDs, e.g. 2.2kw, are often rated (designed/sized) for single phase input, so you can use a 2.2kw "single phase input" VFD to drive a 2.2kw motor
(You can input 1 or 3 phase power to the VFD)
The VFD has been designed to handle the full current through a single input.

Larger VFDs have usually been designed for three phase input only, as large motors are usually located in industrial settings where three phase is standard. So they need to be de-rated (use a larger rated VFD) for single phase.

So can I assume around 5hp is the cut off for what is considered "LARGER" VFD's/Spindles??
I have seen a lot of info stating a 7.5hp spindle would work fine as Goeman has pointed out.

[mactec54]

So can I assume around 5hp is the cut off for what is considered "LARGER" VFD's/Spindles??
I have seen a lot of info stating a 7.5hp spindle would work fine as Goeman has pointed out.

Goeman does not have an aluminum extrusion frame machine

The cutoff point is determined by the rigidity of your machine not by the Ac power requirement, for a large Hp spindle there is many ways to have 3Ph power from a single-phase supply to run a large Hp 3ph motor. I run more than 30Hp from single Phase supply with a Phase Perfect Phase Converter

It's not really about what is the largest spindle you can run, your machine has to be able to use the power of a larger Hp spindle, you have an aluminum extrusion-built machine, which it's normal HP spindle would be around 3Hp max. so using a 7.5Hp on a not so rigid machine will not be of any benefit.

Even Goeman with his 7.5Hp spindle will only be using a small fraction of the 7.5Hp with what he is doing so is a total waste have a spindle this size.

A spindle between 2.2Kw and 3.4Kw would be more than what you need with the machine you have, 7.5Hp is ridiculous unless you have a steel built industrial size machine

3.7Kw would need a 40Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement 40A 2Pole GFCI Breaker for NA.
5.5Kw would need a 54 Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement, because you can't buy a 55A Breaker you would have to use a 60A 2 Pole GFCI Breaker for NA. the wiring would have to suit for the 60Amps.

You shop is residential; the new code requires you to use a GFCI which can be problematic when using a VFD Drive

[RufusToad]

Goeman does not have an aluminum extrusion frame machine

The cutoff point is determined by the rigidity of your machine not by the Ac power requirement, for a large Hp spindle there is many ways to have 3Ph power from a single-phase supply to run a large Hp 3ph motor. I run more than 30Hp from single Phase supply with a Phase Perfect Phase Converter

It's not really about what is the largest spindle you can run, your machine has to be able to use the power of a larger Hp spindle, you have an aluminum extrusion-built machine, which it's normal HP spindle would be around 3Hp max. so using a 7.5Hp on a not so rigid machine will not be of any benefit.

Even Goeman with his 7.5Hp spindle will only be using a small fraction of the 7.5Hp with what he is doing so is a total waste have a spindle this size.

A spindle between 2.2Kw and 3.4Kw would be more than what you need with the machine you have, 7.5Hp is ridiculous unless you have a steel built industrial size machine

3.7Kw would need a 40Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement 40A 2Pole GFCI Breaker for NA.
5.5Kw would need a 54 Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement, because you can't buy a 55A Breaker you would have to use a 60A 2 Pole GFCI Breaker for NA. the wiring would have to suit for the 60Amps.

You shop is residential; the new code requires you to use a GFCI which can be problematic when using a VFD Drive

That's great info mactec54.
I do know that AVID sells a 8hp plug and play kit for their machines and I am positive they only offer 8'/10' or 4'/5' beds with same style gantry so I "believe" this table should handle this power.
I do not have any issues with power supply but the impression I am getting from you is this spindle will not work at all?
I am a little confused on the derate math. Is this HP cut by 1/3rd as you combine the conductors for 1 leg and is the derate what you actually size the VFD for or do you still size it for the "actual" HP of the spindle? Hope that makes sense.

It appears the cheapy VFD I purchased suggests AC input 220v single phase and 7.5kw 3ph out at 30A . This is Chinese cheapy (not to trusting) so with what your suggesting this is not accurate?

[RufusToad]

Goeman does not have an aluminum extrusion frame machine

The cutoff point is determined by the rigidity of your machine not by the Ac power requirement, for a large Hp spindle there is many ways to have 3Ph power from a single-phase supply to run a large Hp 3ph motor. I run more than 30Hp from single Phase supply with a Phase Perfect Phase Converter

It's not really about what is the largest spindle you can run, your machine has to be able to use the power of a larger Hp spindle, you have an aluminum extrusion-built machine, which it's normal HP spindle would be around 3Hp max. so using a 7.5Hp on a not so rigid machine will not be of any benefit.

Even Goeman with his 7.5Hp spindle will only be using a small fraction of the 7.5Hp with what he is doing so is a total waste have a spindle this size.

A spindle between 2.2Kw and 3.4Kw would be more than what you need with the machine you have, 7.5Hp is ridiculous unless you have a steel built industrial size machine

3.7Kw would need a 40Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement 40A 2Pole GFCI Breaker for NA.
5.5Kw would need a 54 Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement, because you can't buy a 55A Breaker you would have to use a 60A 2 Pole GFCI Breaker for NA. the wiring would have to suit for the 60Amps.

You shop is residential; the new code requires you to use a GFCI which can be problematic when using a VFD Drive

Just out of curiosity and the main reason I started this post, what is your ultimate spindle/vfd combination?

[mactec54]

Just out of curiosity and the main reason I started this post, what is your ultimate spindle/vfd combination?

Again, the machine determines what the best spindle would be to use, VFD Drive is to suit the spindle spec's, and the supply power requirements' ( single Phase or 3Phase ) you may well be fine with what you have brought, the only thing is you will most likely never use any more than 25% of that spindles Hp, so the whole big Hp spindle is quite pointless, one of my machining centers has a 7.5Hp spindle motor, the most it ever use's cutting steel is a max of 40% to 60% and that is using the correct speeds and feeds, aluminum is around 20% to 25% depending on how hard I push it.

Most all VFD Drives will last quite well if it is Programed and wired correctly. there are some that you can use Sensorless Vector Mode these drives cost a lot more money, if you got the GT HY VFD Drive it has Sensorless Vector Mode, the only problem, this does not work for these high frequency spindles, with this drive, Yaskawa is one that has a VFD Drive that can control the high frequency spindles in Sensorless Vector Mode.

[RufusToad]

Again, the machine determines what the best spindle would be to use, VFD Drive is to suit the spindle spec's, and the supply power requirements' ( single Phase or 3Phase ) you may well be fine with what you have brought, the only thing is you will most likely never use any more than 25% of that spindles Hp, so the whole big Hp spindle is quite pointless, one of my machining centers has a 7.5Hp spindle motor, the most it ever use's cutting steel is a max of 40% to 60% and that is using the correct speeds and feeds, aluminum is around 20% to 25% depending on how hard I push it.

Most all VFD Drives will last quite well if it is Programed and wired correctly. there are some that you can use Sensorless Vector Mode these drives cost a lot more money, if you got the GT HY VFD Drive it has Sensorless Vector Mode, the only problem, this does not work for these high frequency spindles, with this drive, Yaskawa is one that has a VFD Drive that can control the high frequency spindles in Sensorless Vector Mode.

Well that's a little promising plus I am not a ton of money right now so I will make it better in time. The spindle came today and I wasn't expecting a 300lb motor HAHAHA but it definitely looks good quality.
Just a few more questions and I will leave you alone.
As you stated the input is 2 times rated VFD for breaker/wiring for input. Does the same hold true for the wiring to the spindle? Since the spindle is rated at 220 19.4A do you double that as well?
Is there a link you could share for wiring and the set up for a VFD or is this Chinese manual the best way?

[pippin88]

Well. It may be slightly different kettle of fish (I'm in u.k.) but my servo drive on single phase is 1.8kw. Rated for a 30A breaker, can peak at 56A!.

Your servo will be rated at 1.8kw for continuous duty, however will be able to peak at much higher than that. Hence the high peak.
Servos are usually designed to have short peaks. They can't sustain these loads for long periods as they would overheat.
Peak load is often seen for short bursts during acceleration.

Spindle motors used with VFD are usually rated for a continuous power which is not expected to be exceeded.
Spindle are expected to see more consistent / continuous loads.

VFDs can be programmed with maximum currents.

Any decent quality servo drive can also be programmed with maximum currents and to not exceed this or to error out if current draw exceeds this.

[mactec54]

Well that's a little promising plus I am not a ton of money right now so I will make it better in time. The spindle came today and I wasn't expecting a 300lb motor HAHAHA but it definitely looks good quality.
Just a few more questions and I will leave you alone.
As you stated the input is 2 times rated VFD for breaker/wiring for input. Does the same hold true for the wiring to the spindle? Since the spindle is rated at 220 19.4A do you double that as well?
Is there a link you could share for wiring and the set up for a VFD or is this Chinese manual the best way?

No, the VFD to Spindle will be a 4 wire Shielded cable that suits the 20A spindle rating, the best cable to get is from IGUS

[edfang]

and just to clarify - Avid when specing their 8.7hp spindle, specifically DERATES the spindle when operating in single phase mode. here is the text associated with that. . . that being said, the same frame 4x2/4x4/4x8/5x5/5x10 are used in single/three phase for their higher powered spindle. So they are specing that spindle with rated power on their extrusion frames. Now whether thats stiff enough to handle that power. . thats not something I know or can provide any insight upon.

************************
Operating the 8.7 HP (6.5 kW) Spindle / VFD system on single-phase power will reduce the spindle's peak horsepower to 6.4 HP (4.7 kW), and the achievable material removal rate may be reduced by up to 27% depending on the material, tooling, and cutting parameters used. A three-phase to single-phase plug adapter is included for use with NEMA L6-30 receptacles. For single-phase applications, a 30A 220V circuit is required.

[mactec54]

and just to clarify - Avid when specing their 8.7hp spindle, specifically DERATES the spindle when operating in single phase mode. here is the text associated with that. . . that being said, the same frame 4x2/4x4/4x8/5x5/5x10 are used in single/three phase for their higher powered spindle. So they are specing that spindle with rated power on their extrusion frames. Now whether thats stiff enough to handle that power. . thats not something I know or can provide any insight upon.

************************
Operating the 8.7 HP (6.5 kW) Spindle / VFD system on single-phase power will reduce the spindle's peak horsepower to 6.4 HP (4.7 kW), and the achievable material removal rate may be reduced by up to 27% depending on the material, tooling, and cutting parameters used. A three-phase to single-phase plug adapter is included for use with NEMA L6-30 receptacles. For single-phase applications, a 30A 220V circuit is required.

You are not going to run an 8.7Hp spindle VFD from a 30A single phase supply, you will need double that for an 8.7Hp spindle.

[Goemon]

Well that's great, I'm more confused now than I was when I started this freaking post. If people would stop telling everyone how good they think they are and hurling insults at others maybe someone like myself might actually learn something.

I'm 100% sure it's capable of doing a great for it's intended use.
Since I cant get any good info anywhere else then that's all I can ask for. As I stated before the VFD is temporary and if I need to purchase something better after I get everything hooked up and learned I will definitely do so. I have less than $1K in this entire set up. I want to understand how to get a VFD and spindle working on this table and working with Mach4. Didn't think it would be as difficult as people make it out to be.

I remember that feeling. Don't get stuck in all the conflicting info. It's actually very simple.

[Goemon]

Here's one with it cutting wood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6D3-6TBPE4

[dazp1976]

No, the VFD to Spindle will be a 4 wire Shielded cable that suits the 20A spindle rating, the best cable to get is from IGUS

You are not going to run an 8.7Hp spindle VFD from a 30A single phase supply, you will need double that for an 8.7Hp spindle.

Goeman does not have an aluminum extrusion frame machine
The cutoff point is determined by the rigidity of your machine not by the Ac power requirement, for a large Hp spindle there is many ways to have 3Ph power from a single-phase supply to run a large Hp 3ph motor. I run more than 30Hp from single Phase supply with a Phase Perfect Phase Converter
It's not really about what is the largest spindle you can run, your machine has to be able to use the power of a larger Hp spindle, you have an aluminum extrusion-built machine, which it's normal HP spindle would be around 3Hp max. so using a 7.5Hp on a not so rigid machine will not be of any benefit.
Even Goeman with his 7.5Hp spindle will only be using a small fraction of the 7.5Hp with what he is doing so is a total waste have a spindle this size.
A spindle between 2.2Kw and 3.4Kw would be more than what you need with the machine you have, 7.5Hp is ridiculous unless you have a steel built industrial size machine
3.7Kw would need a 40Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement 40A 2Pole GFCI Breaker for NA.
5.5Kw would need a 54 Amp Breaker to meet electrical code requirement, because you can't buy a 55A Breaker you would have to use a 60A 2 Pole GFCI Breaker for NA. the wiring would have to suit for the 60Amps.
You shop is residential; the new code requires you to use a GFCI which can be problematic when using a VFD Drive

Mactec54 Is pretty clued up whe it comes to VFD / spindle questions. Take his advice on-board.

[mactec54]

and just to clarify - Avid when specing their 8.7hp spindle, specifically DERATES the spindle when operating in single phase mode. here is the text associated with that. . . that being said, the same frame 4x2/4x4/4x8/5x5/5x10 are used in single/three phase for their higher powered spindle. So they are specing that spindle with rated power on their extrusion frames. Now whether thats stiff enough to handle that power. . thats not something I know or can provide any insight upon.

************************
Operating the 8.7 HP (6.5 kW) Spindle / VFD system on single-phase power will reduce the spindle's peak horsepower to 6.4 HP (4.7 kW), and the achievable material removal rate may be reduced by up to 27% depending on the material, tooling, and cutting parameters used. A three-phase to single-phase plug adapter is included for use with NEMA L6-30 receptacles. For single-phase applications, a 30A 220V circuit is required.

It still can't be run on a 30A supply check the electrical code, even it if you did derate it like you are saying, to 4.7Kw this still could not run on 30A supply

The derating can only be 1.73 for single phase to 3ph, you can't make up numbers like they have and call it good, that is total Bs.

[mactec54]

I remember that feeling. Don't get stuck in all the conflicting info. It's actually very simple.

There is no conflicting information

And you can do cuts like that with a 2.2Kw spindle so what is the point of have a 5.6Kw spindle.

[Goemon]

and just to clarify - Avid when specing their 8.7hp spindle, specifically DERATES the spindle when operating in single phase mode. here is the text associated with that. . . that being said, the same frame 4x2/4x4/4x8/5x5/5x10 are used in single/three phase for their higher powered spindle. So they are specing that spindle with rated power on their extrusion frames. Now whether thats stiff enough to handle that power. . thats not something I know or can provide any insight upon.

************************
Operating the 8.7 HP (6.5 kW) Spindle / VFD system on single-phase power will reduce the spindle's peak horsepower to 6.4 HP (4.7 kW), and the achievable material removal rate may be reduced by up to 27% depending on the material, tooling, and cutting parameters used. A three-phase to single-phase plug adapter is included for use with NEMA L6-30 receptacles. For single-phase applications, a 30A 220V circuit is required.

You don't derate the spindle. You derate the VFD. The derating is for the input side (of the vfd). I.e. To stop you overloading it's input circuits with more power on fewer phases.

You set the VFDs output power yourself during set-up.

VFDs work by converting the AC power it takes into DC power. It then converts the DC power to 3 phase AC power at your specified frequency and voltage. This is why they can be used to run 3ph motors from 1ph power.

There is no such thing as 3 phase dc power. Once converted to DC power it no longer matters if the AC source was one or three phase. It's the VFDs job to take in the power it needs to output the correct amount of 3 phase power.

That balancing act is a constant process as the power draw varies with the load.

I measured the output on mine to make sure I was getting the correct volts and amps on each phase at the spindle.

Either the Avid guys don't understand the derating for 1ph power advice or they're advising people that, instead of buying a larger VFD, they can use their spindle + (non-derated) VFD package on 1ph by pretending they have a smaller spindle.

I haven't seen it done that way anywhere else. That doesn't mean it's not possible. But, all the major VFD manufacturers and sellers I've seen advise people to buy a larger VFD and derate it.

For many applications it simply wouldn't work if you reduced the motor's power and torque. You'd have pumps failing and hoists getting stuck etc.

[mactec54]

You don't derate the spindle. You derate the VFD. The derating is for the input side (of the vfd). I.e. To stop you overloading it's input circuits with more power on fewer phases.

You set the VFDs output power yourself during set-up.

VFDs work by converting the AC power it takes into DC power. It then converts the DC power to 3 phase AC power at your specified frequency and voltage. This is why they can be used to run 3ph motors from 1ph power. .

Not really. the DC is not converted into AC power, it is converted into a PWM a quasi-form of 3 phase power, the output is nothing like the input AC sine wave.

There is no such thing as 3 phase dc power. Once converted to DC power it no longer matters if the AC source was one or three phase. It's the VFDs job to take in the power it needs to output the correct amount of 3 phase power. .

Sure, there is. 3 phase DC

I measured the output on mine to make sure I was getting the correct volts and amps on each phase at the spindle. .

What kind of meter did you use to measure the VFD Drive output, you can't do this with a regular multimeter? unless it has a low-pass filter. which only expensive meters have.

Either the Avid guys don't understand the derating for 1ph power advice or they're advising people that, instead of buying a larger VFD, they can use their spindle + (non-derated) VFD package on 1ph by pretending they have a smaller spindle.
I haven't seen it done that way anywhere else. That doesn't mean it's not possible. all the major VFD manufacturers and sellers I've seen advise people to buy a larger VFD and derate it.
For many applications it simply wouldn't work if you reduced the motor's power and torque. You'd have pumps failing and hoists getting stuck etc.

Most VFD Drive manufactures would not recommend running any motor VFD Drive combination above 5Hp with single phase power supply. most stop at 3Hp

A larger VFD Drive does not solve the problem derating is Bs, you are not derating anything, if you have a 20A motor then the 1.732 x 20=34.64. so, the VFD Drives input Rectifier needs to be rated at more than 34.64A, for this to work so just getting a larger VFD Drive is not the answer, just the VFD Drives input Amp rating is all that matters. the better VFD Drive manufacturers have the input Amp rating of their VFD Drives, like I have posted many times before

[edfang]

It still can't be run on a 30A supply check the electrical code, even it if you did derate it like you are saying, to 4.7Kw this still could not run on 30A supply

The derating can only be 1.73 for single phase to 3ph, you can't make up numbers like they have and call it good, that is total Bs.

Mactec this isn’t from me. I was just pointing out that avid themselves had a blurb about it and quoted it. And that their alum extrusion platforms have the option for that hiteco qb-1f 6.5 spindle - and it has options for both single and 3 phase. I’m not saying it’s applicable, whether it’s ideal or anything else. Just indicating that that 8.7hp on single phase is not true. They specifically say - it’s lower powered by 27 percent when operating in single phase mode.