[MaggieMarley]

I really only want this for cutting wood. The odd Aluminium job but that would be with small mill bits and slow / small cuts, that's if its used at all for Aluminum.
The 1/2" collet would be useful for the odd 1/2" shank router bits I have. It will be mainly used for cutting wood joints, the tenons on the end of 3x3 and the like.
Most other work will be with not more that 6 or 8mm end mills on wood.

CNC is new to me so I don't really know what I can and can't do yet. Learning day by day here

Thanks

[MaggieMarley]

Most of my work will be with wood. I mainly want the slightly larger mills for cutting tenons on the end of 3x3 wood (and mortices), fixed upright on the cnc.
All other work will be no more than maybe 6 or 8mm end mills, with the odd aluminum job but only using small cutters with slow speeds and small cuts.

Its just nice to have the 1/2" collet to take some 1/2" shank router bits I have for wood use.

I am new to CNC so don't really know what I can and cant do yet, but I am learning every day

Thanks

[MaggieMarley]

Hi Craig,

Most of my projects will be milling wood with the odd aluminium work which will only require slow speeds and small cuts using small end mills.
The main reason I want a 1/2" collet is because I have plenty of 1/2" router bits that I can use. All though most of my new jobs will be done with end mills etc.

I am new to CNC working so I am learning everyday about what I can and cannot do

Just out of interest, what spindle spec would you recommend for milling Alu. using a 1/2" end mill(Not that I need to) and assuming the rest rest of the CNC is up to it of course.

Thanks for your input.

Paul

[mactec54]

Hi Craig,

Most of my projects will be milling wood with the odd aluminium work which will only require slow speeds and small cuts using small end mills.
The main reason I want a 1/2" collet is because I have plenty of 1/2" router bits that I can use. All though most of my new jobs will be done with end mills etc.

I am new to CNC working so I am learning everyday about what I can and cannot do

Just out of interest, what spindle spec would you recommend for milling Alu. using a 1/2" end mill(Not that I need to) and assuming the rest rest of the CNC is up to it of course.

Thanks for your input.

Paul

A spindle to use a 1/2" Endmill I would be looking at a low speed spindle 2500 / 8000 RPM 4pole, depending on the cutter design and the machine it could be used at much higher RPM though, a 3/8" /10mm are a popular endmill size for higher speeds and feeds

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Just out of interest, what spindle spec would you recommend for milling Alu. using a 1/2" end mill(Not that I need to) and assuming the rest rest of the CNC is up to it of course.

The critical determinant of spindle speed for a given size tool is surface speed which is material dependent.

Most recommendations for aluminum are in the range of 250 m/min to 500 m/min and depends to some extent on the grade of aluminum. I run harder grades like 7075 at near the top
end but some of the softer, 'sticky' grades like 5083 or 3000 series I run at lower surface speed.

If you try to spin a tool too fast in aluminum you risk having the chips weld themselves to the tool and wrecking everything, usually breaking the tool. For this reason I use flood coolant,
not so much for cooling, but rather to flush the chips out of the cutzone. Re-cutting chips is a sure way to get BUE (built up edge=bugger...bugger...bugger!). Other people use an air blast,
and yet others use nothing at all...how they get away with it I'm not sure.

Lets say you chose a conservative surface speed for 6061 aluminum, 250 m/min. then a 1/2 inch (12.5mm) tool:

rpm = 250 / ( 0.0125 x PI)
=6367 rpm

If your spindle is rated at 24000 rpm then running it at 1/4 is probably not a good idea. I never run my air cooled spindle below 12000 rpm, a water cooled spindle
maybe you could get lower, say 7200 rpm (120Hz in a two pole motor), but I would not want to go lower.

If you chose 250m/min in 6061 but with a 6mm tool:

rpm= 250 / (0.006 x PI)
=13269 rpm.

This is a better combination for your proposed spindle.

High rpm spindles operate best at mid to high rpms and therefore you tend to use smaller tools. If you want to use bigger tools, and especially if you want to cut
steel or stainless then you need a spindle with a lot of torque at very much lower speeds, definitely not the strong point for the spindles you are considering.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,



The critical determinant of spindle speed for a given size tool is surface speed which is material dependent.

Most recommendations for aluminum are in the range of 250 m/min to 500 m/min and depends to some extent on the grade of aluminum. I run harder grades like 7075 at near the top
end but some of the softer, 'sticky' grades like 5083 or 3000 series I run at lower surface speed.

If you try to spin a tool too fast in aluminum you risk having the chips weld themselves to the tool and wrecking everything, usually breaking the tool. For this reason I use flood coolant,
not so much for cooling, but rather to flush the chips out of the cutzone. Re-cutting chips is a sure way to get BUE (built up edge=bugger...bugger...bugger!). Other people use an air blast,
and yet others use nothing at all...how they get away with it I'm not sure.

Lets say you chose a conservative surface speed for 6061 aluminum, 250 m/min. then a 1/2 inch (12.5mm) tool:

rpm = 250 / ( 0.0125 x PI)
=6367 rpm

If your spindle is rated at 24000 rpm then running it at 1/4 is probably not a good idea. I never run my air cooled spindle below 12000 rpm, a water cooled spindle
maybe you could get lower, say 7200 rpm (120Hz in a two pole motor), but I would not want to go lower.

If you chose 250m/min in 6061 but with a 6mm tool:

rpm= 250 / (0.006 x PI)
=13269 rpm.

This is a better combination for your proposed spindle.

High rpm spindles operate best at mid to high rpms and therefore you tend to use smaller tools. If you want to use bigger tools, and especially if you want to cut
steel or stainless then you need a spindle with a lot of torque at very much lower speeds, definitely not the strong point for the spindles you are considering.

Craig

The spindle speed is of no use without a feed rate, you need to define the feed rate by the type of cutter being used number of teeth to get a chip load

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
but the surface speed is the best indicator of how much heat will be produced, and in particular whether the aluminum chips will try to weld to the tool.
The rate of metal removal is very much determined by the chip load.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,
but the surface speed is the best indicator of how much heat will be produced, and in particular whether the aluminum chips will try to weld to the tool.
The rate of metal removal is very much determined by the chip load.

Craig

Not at all, SFM for Aluminum can be anywhere from 50 to over 2000 SFM

Using SFM is only half the calculation required to cut a part efficiently RPM can be any number you want to use, ( Machine Spindle Capability) without a chip load depth and number of teeth calculation you have nothing

Aluminum chips will never weld to the tool if the Speeds and Feeds are set correct for the job, no matter the material grade being used.


Feed Rate= RPM X Chip Load X Number of Teeth= Feed Rate

So, if your spindle has its max torque at 12,000 RPM any number around that would be you best starting point, to calculate the feed rate for the material and cutter being used, machine being capable all needs to be adjusted to suit the machine

It's all about what your machine rigidity, Spindle speed, and what the machines Feed rates can be, all must be in balance, that is why they call it Speeds and Feeds

Some charts attached

[MaggieMarley]

That's excellent information, thank you.
As I will 99% of the time be cutting wood, I don't see it being a problem with the Mechatron spindle.

But, again,out of interest more than anything else what other options are their for a good quality spindle in the same price range as Mechatron?
As I am new to the CNC world (I am an engineer though, so not totally clueless! , where to find a good spindle and where to find the various options etc seem to be a mystery.

I think I should be fine withe the Mechatron spindle for what I need, and even that may be over the top. But what other good alternatives are their?

Like most things, the further you dig down into this the more questions that come up.

Thanks for you views and info, its always good to get real world opinions and data etc.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
while there are any number of cheap spindles from various Chinese manufacturers, and many of those could well be very serviceable, but knowing which ones
is the problem. Certainly Jianken has developed a reputation for good products.

The next step up, in terms of quality, is also a big jump in price. Mechatron is a good example, nice products but pricey. Even Mechatron can be out done there however.
Look at HSD, among the best i the world but they make Mechatron look cheap!

Teknomotor is broadly similar to Mechatron in terms of quality and price:

https://www.teknomotor.com/

There are some very good Taiwanese made products, good to very good quality, and prices that are not stratosphereic:

https://www.royal-spindles.com/
Machining Center Spindle - Taiwan Manufacturer | Spinder Spindles
Precision Spindle | High Speed Spindle - POSA Machinery

Craig

[MaggieMarley]

Hi Craig,

That's great, thanks.
I think I will go for the Mechatron with with the Hitachi S1 VFD and a few other extras, 5uM Collet set and brake resistor etc.
I started looking at input line reactors but where do you top with all this? May have to put in a dedicated supply for the VFD but will see how I get on.
Can't really afford the chiller as well from Mechatron, so may have to find a cheap alternative for the cooling until I can find a suitable chiller unit or save up a bit to buy the Mechatron offering in the coming months if it proves successful!

I did look on the likes of Amazon and eBay for a chiller but as always its full with imports of unknown brands / quality etc. (Maybe a cheapo pump and bucket of coolant

Hopefully I will order the 2.2KW Water cooled Mechatron / VFD next week. I think it will suit me for mainly wood and some light Alu work./ Plastic.


Thanks, all the replies have been very helpful and educational....

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

I started looking at input line reactors but where do you top with all this?

Initially I did not bother and had my share of electrical noise problems. Then I made and used a line reactor and 90% plus of the electrical noise problems stopped.
If you have no noise or nuisance breaker trips then don't bother with a reactor, if you are plagued with either then a reactor may prove to be your cheapest solution.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi Craig,

That's great, thanks.
I think I will go for the Mechatron with with the Hitachi S1 VFD and a few other extras, 5uM Collet set and brake resistor etc.
I started looking at input line reactors but where do you top with all this? May have to put in a dedicated supply for the VFD but will see how I get on.
Can't really afford the chiller as well from Mechatron, so may have to find a cheap alternative for the cooling until I can find a suitable chiller unit or save up a bit to buy the Mechatron offering in the coming months if it proves successful!

I did look on the likes of Amazon and eBay for a chiller but as always its full with imports of unknown brands / quality etc. (Maybe a cheapo pump and bucket of coolant

Hopefully I will order the 2.2KW Water cooled Mechatron / VFD next week. I think it will suit me for mainly wood and some light Alu work./ Plastic.


Thanks, all the replies have been very helpful and educational....

You can't use a dedicated Power supply for your VFD Drive and another for your machine, it must be one supply, for your machine, the only thing you need is a quality EMI power filter, a line reactor for your install would not be as affective as a EMI line Power Filter.

A Reactor is used when you are more in the low frequency range, and have over 50 feet of cable, a quality EMI Power Filter (which is not expensive) mounted close to the VFD Drive input will do all you need for your high frequency spindle, the Hitachi VFD Drive has a built in noise Filter that may even be enough, so may not need anything

A Breaking resistor is also not normally needed unless you want to slow / stop the spindle faster than 3 / 5 seconds

In most cases if the wiring and the cable Shields have been correctly terminated, you won't have a EMI noise problem, a EMI Power Filter is always a good practice to use with power supplies and VFD Drives in general, this gives added protection from EMI which can affect any low voltage systems and electronics

It is also very hard to find a 30A single phase Reactor for your requirement's and what is available is very expensive

[mactec54]

Hi,



Initially I did not bother and had my share of electrical noise problems. Then I made and used a line reactor and 90% plus of the electrical noise problems stopped.
If you have no noise or nuisance breaker trips then don't bother with a reactor, if you are plagued with either then a reactor may prove to be your cheapest solution.

Craig

Noise does not normally trip a Breaker only a incorrect sized circuit, or a fault in the wiring will cause a Breaker to trip, a Reactor will help with inrush if a VFD Drive is not sized correct, Inrush can cause a Breaker to trip also, which is what normally happens when the system is not correctly sized for the job it has to do.

[MaggieMarley]

Hi,

OK, thanks.

So,after lots of thinking and deliberation, finally, I have now ordered a Mechatron 2.2kW motor and opted for a Omron MX2 VFD and a decent line filter. Not bothered with a brake resistor but can always add one if I feel the need.
All things being well, these should arrive next week some time then the fun begins.

Thanks to everyone on here who posted opinions and other info to help with my choice, which I am hoping will turn out to be a good one.
Like most things, at some point a decision has to be made, can't keep on reading forums and watching YouTube forever!

Thanks

[mactec54]

Hi,

OK, thanks.

So,after lots of thinking and deliberation, finally, I have now ordered a Mechatron 2.2kW motor and opted for a Omron MX2 VFD and a decent line filter. Not bothered with a brake resistor but can always add one if I feel the need.
All things being well, these should arrive next week some time then the fun begins.

Thanks to everyone on here who posted opinions and other info to help with my choice, which I am hoping will turn out to be a good one.
Like most things, at some point a decision has to be made, can't keep on reading forums and watching YouTube forever!

Thanks

Any reason to choose the Omron over the Hitachi the Omron is just a relabeled Hitachi that normally cost more for the same thing

This is the best EMI filter to use, TDK Lambda RSEN-2030L, Not all are created equal, I don't know this company but it seems that they are the only one with stock at the moment. https://power.sager.com/rsen-2030l-4058416.html

Sorry they don't have it either, just get it where you can find it

[MaggieMarley]

Hi,

I actually like the look of the Hitachi offering but found a bundle deal which included the Omron MX2 instead of the S1 Drive.

Just seemed that finding companies that had stock of everything was impossible. Adding all the extra posting / carrier / customs charges etc to buy form multiple companies turned out to be around 600 Euros more than buying the bundle deal at 1600 Euros including 2.2K Mechatron and holder, MX2 VFD, Input filter, all screened cables, connectors, tubing, collets (5um) and a Eheim water cooler system and coolant etc.
Found this cheaper elsewhere with other companies but some parts out of stock which is the issue.

Just out of interest and nothing more, I also like the Mafell (FM1000 PV-WS) spindle with the easy tool change mechanism. That would be nice for bit changing but I am hoping the Mechatron / VFD setup is far better, especially with noise, runout, power and a better all round system.

Thanks

[mactec54]

Hi,

I actually like the look of the Hitachi offering but found a bundle deal which included the Omron MX2 instead of the S1 Drive.

Just seemed that finding companies that had stock of everything was impossible. Adding all the extra posting / carrier / customs charges etc to buy form multiple companies turned out to be around 600 Euros more than buying the bundle deal at 1600 Euros including 2.2K Mechatron and holder, MX2 VFD, Input filter, all screened cables, connectors, tubing, collets (5um) and a Eheim water cooler system and coolant etc.
Found this cheaper elsewhere with other companies but some parts out of stock which is the issue.

Just out of interest and nothing more, I also like the Mafell (FM1000 PV-WS) spindle with the easy tool change mechanism. That would be nice for bit changing but I am hoping the Mechatron / VFD setup is far better, especially with noise, runout, power and a better all round system.

Thanks

The Mafell (FM1000 PV-WS) would not compare to the 2.2Kw spindle, while there tool change is cool, it's basically a die grinder with the added tool changer

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

This is the best EMI filter to use, TDK Lambda RSEN-2030L, Not all are created equal, I don't know this company but it seems that they are the only one with stock at the moment. https://power.sager.com/rsen-2030l-4058416.html

Sorry they don't have it either, just get it where you can find it

This filter is 30A, so very generous current capability, but is a single stage filter. I prefer two stage filters:

https://nz.element14.com/schaffner/f...sis/dp/1191381

This comes from the NZ site but Element14 is worldwide, Newark in the US, Farnell in the UK. Its 16A, so less current capability, but still plenty, and 781 available globally.

Craig

[MaggieMarley]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the link. I put two of these (Similar) in my control box. One before the two PSU's that drive the steeper's and one before the PSU that drives the controller. Seems to work really well. Not seen any issues yet, but then I am just using my DeWalt router as as a spindle so no VFD.
So, as I have a Omron MX2 in the bundle package I ordered, apart from the normally higher price of the MX over the Hitachi S1, do you think the MX2 is a decent VFD compared to the Hitachi S1? I don't think I will notice any difference with what I am trying to achieve would you say one is technically any better than the other.

I am hoping the MX2 will be a decent drive and fairly easy to setup for a Mechatron 2.2KW spindle.

Better start reading the manual I suppose...

Thanks