[ghyman]

We started asking about a new mill a month ago; this machine is 4 months old now, and has only run a week straight ONCE, but even then we had to slow it down because the spindle was bogging down in a roughing cut.
We bought this machine specifically to increase our capacity and capability (15K spindle) for one product line; to date, we have begged off on the new product line, and we are still outsourcing several jobs that should be running in house.
Fadal's answer was to (at 100 days) send a factory service tech out; that was just over 2 weeks ago, and to extend our warranty 100 days... and here we are again.
This is a horror story at best; I simply cannot fathom a company in today's world that would allow this to continue for even half as long as it has. (There is a *lot* more to this story than just the spindle problems, too.)
I had a Fadal (6030 iirc) in a shop several years ago, with the 88 control... it was a workhorse to be sure, but I am starting to think that it was the exception.
But this is an absolute disaster in every possible way.
I understand that there must be some positive reviews of Fadal, but every time they tell me that they have "hundreds of machines in this area that don't have any problems at all", they don't think I'm being serious when I tell them they should just give us one of those!
Anyway... I'm ranting again.
Service tech is here today; fingers crossed.

[ghyman]

Nope! Not today. He needs more parts. Apparently he has to pick up a regulator to drop the incoming air pressure to 60 psi (but just for the spindle.)
Apparently, the 80-100 PSI requirement is fine for everything else in the machine, but it's just too darn much pressure for the pressure plate and seal and whatever else is broken in there... (an appx Ø3/4" steel fitting is sheared off because of the 'excessive pressure' against it.) He knows to do this because he just had to do the same thing on a different customer's new machine a week ago.

The title of this thread is "Fadal spindle failure", and the OP asked the question,"Are we the only ones having these kinds of problems?". After re-reading the first post, I see the statement "In the last year we have had to replace over a dozen spindles, 4 of which have been in one machine!", and I believe that sounds about normal, based on what I have seen so far with this one.
I don't believe this machine to be a "lemon", I think it is performing about as well as a lot of other Fadals... 12+ spindles in 7 machines in a year is horrible, but I can certainly see that it is normal.
I base that on the performance of 100% of the Fadals in this shop.

So, goechsli, the answer to your question is "No. You are not the only one having spindle problems."

I had hoped that someone at Fadal would be reading the 'Fadal' thread here, and maybe looking into some of the problems that are reported (you know, bad press and all that.) But in four months, I have sent status reports to them (Fadal as well as the local distributor) every time the machine develops a problem. These reports detail dates and problems going back to day 1 (way more than just spindle problems, I might add), and so far the only response we have gotten from Fadal was a one-time six-hour visit from a California technician who declared that all of our problems would be solved by the new seal kit and new belts 2-3 weeks ago. Which didn't seem to do the trick.
So my guess is that even if they DID read these threads, their response would be about the same... On-the-fly band-aids to problems that develop at their customers' shops, never mind that the customer is suffering through Fanuc's R&D on problems that should never have been allowed to continue beyond the first time a customer had to have 12+ spindles replaced in a year, regardless of how many machines were involved.
This is a pitiful example of a company showing no concern about their customer. Extend my warranty? That's fine. Will it make the machine work for an entire week without breaking down? Apparently not. "Free" repairs come at the cost of lost production, outsourcing costs, and turning away new business. Thanks, Fadal, for really helping us out.

[ghyman]

The latest:
A different service tech in this area has a modified plate "that he has come up with", and he claims that it has completely eliminated every spindle problem like ours on every machine he has installed it on.
Of course, I don't know why he didn't do this 4 months ago when the problems started...
And I don't like the thought of our new machine having custom-made band-aids from 2 different servicemen... God help us the next time it breaks down; Fadal won't have a clue what the local company has done to the machine!
2/25/08 is when he will install it, and then we'll see...

[philserveng]

I am baffled by this thread, how can coolant "stall" a spindle ? TSC can cause problems if the tool holder and tool have no coolant holes. This causes back pressure and may damage motor or bearings due to coolant getting in places in shouldn't. As a service engineer, I can't see a scenario where TSC will stall a spindle......explain please.

[ghyman]

"Baffled"... welcome to my world!
The story we have been getting from Fadal is this:
The seals on the TSC are poorly designed, and prone to leaking.
We have had the spindle housing full of coolant on numerous occasions, and it being blamed for all of our problems...
Coolant on the drive belts makes them sticky, and that means they wont disengage when there is a gear change.
Coolant on the drive belts makes them slippery, and that means they slip when the spindle is under load.
Coolant on the speed sensor means the machine can't tell how fast the spindle is running, and that makes for all sorts of random problems with spindle speed, tool life, tapping, etc. Hell, it may even be responsible for all the probing problems we had as well as the latest tool changer issues!

I'm not saying I agree with these 100%, this is just what we have been told.

[grweldon]

Well, I had my TSC seals replaced again yesterday, by a factory trained technician. This is the third set since the machine was new in August. The technician could not seem to find ANYTHING else wrong with the machine. We had spindle stalling because of slipping belts, spindle faults where the motor couldn't start because it couldn't overcome the stickiness of the belts, and "pops and clunks" apparently due to sticky belts as well. The sticky belts are supposably caused by coolant attacking them. I'm getting this straight from the technician and apparently there is more than one technician with these same excuses...er...answer! I examined the set that was replaced and I didn't feel any stickiness to them!

I asked for a quote for how much this service will cost after the machine is out of warranty. $655 plus overnight expenses for technician if needed. That adds up pretty quickly if I need to do it every other month!

[ghyman]

grweldon, maybe this modified plate our service guy has come up with will be the answer.
The smartass in me (which this machine has brought out) wants to see if you needed a regulator for your spindle air pressure.
I get the feeling that Fadal sends out a machine with a lot of known issues, then just kinda hopes that the local companies can pacify the customers until the warranty runs out.
It's a lousy way to treat customers, but it's starting to sound like the rule rather than the exception.

This is our first, and last, Fadal.

[grweldon]

Hmmm. Not so sure about the modified plate. You can be the guinea pig! Spindle air pressure regulator...that's a negatory.

Fadal has been in business for quite a while. It would be tough for a company to stay in business if they operated on the premise that you propose. Manufacturing companies go through cycles. Machine tool companies are no different. They experience the same everyday issues everyone in manufacturing has to deal with. Employee turnover and associated skill loss is a big problem. Proficiency and productivity while on the job is a problem. The requirement to treat the 20-year, high-skilled employee the same as the 6-month no-skilled employee means that the 20-year, highly-skilled employee has to be fired the same as the other when he violates the attendence policy. All of this translates into the machine you purchase being delivered late and with quality less than expected. Is it right? No way. Are there ways to deal with the issues? Certainly. Will they keep a lemon or two from getting out the door? Hopefully, but not always. That's why there are manufacturer recalls. It doesn't seem to happen much in the machine tool industry though.

It seems like Fadal should be willing to make your machine right. If your sales/support vendor was any good, they would make sure of it. By-the-way, where exactly are you located?

[ghyman]

Dayton, Ohio area.

I know companies don't (shouldn't) operate like that, but we've had no end of trouble with this machine, including 2 spindle repairs *after* Fadal sent a real-live service tech here for a few hours to see if there was anything else wrong. He gave it a clean bill of health, and it was back down a week later.
So now we've had to make a mounting for a regulator for just the spindle (seemed like a spur-of-the-moment guess by the service tech), and next is the 'special' plate that has been the end-all beat-all repair to spindles in this area (then why wasn't it done four months ago, by Fadal?)
I just feel like the lack of proactive involvement by the distributor, plus the "let's try this bailing wire and duct tape" attitude of the service techs is leaving us with a shoddy machine that we can't rely on for any sort of capacity or increased capability. Which is why we bought it in the first place.

[ltmquik]

Hmmm. Not so sure about the modified plate. You can be the guinea pig! Spindle air pressure regulator...that's a negatory.

Fadal has been in business for quite a while. It would be tough for a company to stay in business if they operated on the premise that you propose. Manufacturing companies go through cycles. Machine tool companies are no different. They experience the same everyday issues everyone in manufacturing has to deal with. Employee turnover and associated skill loss is a big problem. Proficiency and productivity while on the job is a problem. The requirement to treat the 20-year, high-skilled employee the same as the 6-month no-skilled employee means that the 20-year, highly-skilled employee has to be fired the same as the other when he violates the attendence policy. All of this translates into the machine you purchase being delivered late and with quality less than expected. Is it right? No way. Are there ways to deal with the issues? Certainly. Will they keep a lemon or two from getting out the door? Hopefully, but not always. That's why there are manufacturer recalls. It doesn't seem to happen much in the machine tool industry though.

It seems like Fadal should be willing to make your machine right. If your sales/support vendor was any good, they would make sure of it. By-the-way, where exactly are you located?

What you say is true. However, when we talk of a "lemon" this would imply that the item is a very isolated case. From my experiences there are a lot of "lemons" out there with the Fadal name on them. I know that I had two consecutive (sp) Fadal machines that NEVER worked right. One Fadal did take back. The other one was traded in for a different machine brand. I was shocked that a $120K machine was only worth $40K after two (2) years. I digressed but I don't think that that statistic (two (2) in a row) is classified as "lemon".

I think that you should insist that Fadal take the machine back. If it is a lemon it should be recalled and at least replaced with a new machine that works?.

[ghyman]

The tool changer lost it's mind this weekend; the carousel's registration went south and it started calling up random tools at every tool change. They've been out to look at this very problem 3 times in the past.
We're giving the machine back. It's not a spindle problem, but as I've said -- the spindle was only one of the problems we've had since day 1.
So, goodbye Fadal, and best of luck to you.

[ltmquik]

So what is the next step ghyman? Is Fadal sending a different machine? Did they refund your hard earned cash? Any ideas on a replacement machine?

[ghyman]

Next step: I've called and left voicemails, and I've sent emails, but it just ain't happening...
Our local distributer has always made it a point to wait to return calls until after 5:00 when they know they won't have to actually speak to a live person who might trick them into making some sort of commitment.
And Fadal is 3 hours behind us, so it has been a few days of phone tag, but still no actual human-to-human contact.
But, the machine has all the tools and fixtures pulled out, we've pumped out the coolant and disconnected the transformer. All we need now is for them to tell us when they're coming to get it.
I asked about swapping it out for another new one about 3 months ago; they must've thought I was kidding at the time, because that never happened.
And their *lack* of response this week is their typical response to having to make decisions.
The distributor actually had the nerve to sit here and tell us, "all of these service calls come out of my pocket." I can only wonder where the refund for this machine is going to come from. But this far into the game, I still have a machine that does not work, and I really don't care where the refund is coming from.

[ASIGuy]

Ghyman,

Where are you located? And can you give me info on your machine such as year and configuration. Maybe I can help you if you are open minded about this. While it is unfortunate that you purchased a machine that is not performing, all manufactures of machine tools send machines out with issues from time to time, the real problem is getting a service technician who can REALLY solve the machine's issues in an intelligent manor. These technicians are far and few between, so when an idiot comes out and feeds you a bag of crap and bandaids your machine back together without really fixing the root of the problem, then the machine is viewed as a peice of ##!

Sending the machine back is going to be quite a challenge for you, and you are seeing the beginnng of this now. You will likely need legal help if this is the only course of action in your mind, however I have a standing policy with all my service work personally: All my service is warranteed for a year, and if I don't fix it, you don't pay!! I have never had to return to fix a machine yet, nor have I gone without a paycheck.

If you will fill the coolant tank back up, plug it back in and give me a call, I will work with you over the phone and get this machine back in shape, and if I have to fly to you to get this done, I will be willing to do so at my expense to save Fadal's name and show you that getting the right technician is EVERYTHING.

Your dealer is a schmuck(sp?) to not call you back and nuture this problem back to a healthy relationship, but I am willing to do so if you can keep an open mind and work with me.

I can say and do no more. The ball is in your court.

Brian Denny
208-888-9236 Ext. 404
www.FadalCNC.com

[ghyman]

It is a 2007 (8/11 according to the serial #) 2216fx
15K spindle
Through-spindle coolant
4th axis
Fanuc control
Tool set probe
Part probe

The in-plant training consisted of 6 hours watching the trainer change jumpers, wires, parameters, and M codes to try and make the probe work correctly. (It worked, but then he spent all day messing with it because it was taking too long to shut off using the M codes he wrote for it.) For the next month, the probe did not work... it would do a Z-minus rapid travel into the table any time it was used; we destroyed 4 probes before it was fixed. During that month, I was told by Fadal directly that "there are know issues with the probe", I was told by the distributor that they could get it working by selling us a new probing package for a 'discounted price', and I was told by Renishaw that "it should work fine from the factory."

The machine arrived with no manuals, but the distributor assured us that they would get us the CD. I asked for it at least once a week for 4 months before calling Fadal, and then Fanuc, directly. It took me five minutes, and I had everything in my hands the next day, including a hardcopy of the operator's manual (both volumes).

The spindle idler bearing assembly was replaced twice, re-aligned once, and had to have an individual pulley replaced once. We also had 4 sets of belts replace due to excessive wear.

We had the machine down no fewer than 8 times due to leaks in the through-spindle coolant plumbing; we replaced lines and seals and pistons, added an air pressure regulator to keep the pressure below 60PSI, and finally were told that this is a known problem, and that we will probably always have trouble until they re-design the system. After 4 months, one of the service techs performed his own 'special' repair; he said he'd done the same repair to all of the machines in the area that had the same problem our did with the TSC, and it always takes care of the problem. This is not a real-live Fadal repair, nor did he tell anyone here what he did. But the next time it leaks, he will be the only one who knows how to fix it. And if it's a known problem, why didn't they do this the FIRST time it went down?

The tool changer arm will just stop at random times in mid-tool change for no reason, and no alarms. It just... stops. It requires a reboot of the machine and a stepladder and wrench to manually complete the tool change before it will run again.

Unrelated to that, is the tool carousel at random times forgetting what tool is where; it will sometimes *think* it's calling up a 3" long spot drill like it did the previous 50 times, but out of the blue it will call up, say, a 9" tap holder, but it still has the offset for the shorter tool called up. They've looked at it 3 times; the first time we were told it was a grounding problem (the local power company ran a new bus into the building specifically for this machine; it's been checked by them twice for line noise or grounding problems since the machine went online), the second time we were told that the ground was fine and wouldn't have any effect on the tool carousel registration anyway, the third time we were told it's hard to diagnose random problems, but that the updated control software will take care of it. It didn't. We've gotten good at resetting the tool/pot values whenever it happens; this past weekend it lost its mind 4 times in 2 days. That was the first weekend we've scheduled any work on that machine; it has only run for a week straight ONE time since it was installed, only to die on the weekend.

Two weeks into this ordeal, I began copying the maintenance department at Fadal every email I sent to our distributor every time we had a new problem (emails always followed a phone call so there is a record); a month into it I began copying Fadal's customer advocate as well.

The distributor won't lift a finger to help a customer with a machine that is down over 23% of the time we've owned it, but leaves us to get the machine manuals ourselves so we can start looking up the alarms that we get. Their service techs contradict each other on identical problems, one of them openly complains about the other two to the customer!

Fadal has been kept informed of every problem we've had as soon as the distributor is informed, yet failed to do anything early on to service us or to light a fire under their distributor.

It took 3 days of phone calls for me to convince anyone at Fadal to send out a tech from Fadal (I even offered to pay); he stood in our shop for 3-1/2 hours while one of the distributor's techs replaced the idler pulley assembly (again), and then announced that the machine was in top-notch condition. A week later, we had smoke billowing out of the top of the spindle (we were told it was because a worn belt was sticking.)

2 months in, I began asking about the possibility of new machine, but nobody was willing to sign up for that.

I am done with Fadal. Their support network is non-existent, their machine is unreliable, and they act as though they could care less (the owner of the distributor actually had the nerve to complain to us that all of these service calls are costing him money!)

The time for getting the right technician to look at our machine was after the first month, not after the fifth. I appreciate your offer, but the machine is being dragged to the side of the shop today to make room for a replacement. I'm tired of waiting for some miracle to happen so I can run production. I, unlike Fadal, actually want to do whatever I can to satisfy my customers' demands in a timely manner.

[carbidecraters]

Thats the kind of BS that puts little guys out of business.

[Konstrukter1]

Ghyman,

Where are you located? And can you give me info on your machine such as year and configuration. Maybe I can help you if you are open minded about this. While it is unfortunate that you purchased a machine that is not performing, all manufactures of machine tools send machines out with issues from time to time, the real problem is getting a service technician who can REALLY solve the machine's issues in an intelligent manor. These technicians are far and few between, so when an idiot comes out and feeds you a bag of crap and bandaids your machine back together without really fixing the root of the problem, then the machine is viewed as a peice of ##!

Sending the machine back is going to be quite a challenge for you, and you are seeing the beginnng of this now. You will likely need legal help if this is the only course of action in your mind, however I have a standing policy with all my service work personally: All my service is warranteed for a year, and if I don't fix it, you don't pay!! I have never had to return to fix a machine yet, nor have I gone without a paycheck.

If you will fill the coolant tank back up, plug it back in and give me a call, I will work with you over the phone and get this machine back in shape, and if I have to fly to you to get this done, I will be willing to do so at my expense to save Fadal's name and show you that getting the right technician is EVERYTHING.

Your dealer is a schmuck(sp?) to not call you back and nuture this problem back to a healthy relationship, but I am willing to do so if you can keep an open mind and work with me.

I can say and do no more. The ball is in your court.

Brian Denny
208-888-9236 Ext. 404
www.FadalCNC.com

That is a reply, that machine owner need.

[rickyt]

Give us an up date, have you gotten a new machine, have they came and picked that one up? I feel sorry for all the crap you have went through, I know that you didnt ask for any of this. If that was to happen to me I would have been out of business, my customers could care less if I was to have a machine problem. They want their parts and if I couldn't get them there because of machine failures they would go somewhere else. I hope Fadal gets things right with their machines, they have a new controller coming out, I remember the last time they done this. 104/d, I hope its not a repeat of that piece of crap control.

[ghyman]

They came and dragged it out today, and promised us a full refund.
I got a voice mail from the distributor that said "sorry it didn't work out."

And now begins the process of going through more quotes...
Wish me luck!

[Edster]

What machines are you considering? I'm very happy with my Okuma MCV4020, and I know Seekins is happy with his Mori dura vertical.