[Waynekofuco]

I currently have a Jainken JGL-80/2.2R24-20 and a WJ200-022SFat 220single phase on a DIY steel fixed gantry mill. For a year this spindle/vfd combo has worked great for milling plastics and aluminum. This issue is I don't think I need the 24000rpm and want to change from the ISO20 holders to BT30. Lastly Im moving from the steel router frame to a cast iron VMC frame. I really like the Jainken and looking at the Jainken JGL-100/3.2R24-30 the spec sheet;
-S1 Power (KW); 3.2
-Max Speed; 24000rpm
-Rated Voltage; 220/380
-Current; 8.8/5.2
-Max Freq; 800Hz
-Torque; 1.27Nm
-Pole #; 4

After reading other threads on driving 4 pole/800Hz spindles with 400Hz VFDs Im still confused. I understand running a 4 pole spindle up to 400Hz max will result in 12000rpm max, but...
1st Q; What I don't understand, does halving the freq/RPM affect the usable machining power of the spindle? Again will milling AL with the correct tooling at 400Hz/12000rpm be better same or worse? Currently milling AL using single flute cutters @ 18000rpm. I would assume running the spindle much slower would require multi flute cutters...

2nd Q; Assuming the 800Hz spindle performance was ok at 400Hz for aluminum, is the WJ200-022SF VFD adequate to drive the above spindle? Per the VFD sheet;
-Rated input current (A) w single-phase 200V VT/CT; 24/22A
-Rated output current (A) w 3-phase: 200 to 240V; VT/CT; 12/11A

The above spindle current of 8.8@220 I assume is at 800Hz. Does running the spindle only to 400Hz increase this current demand at load and make the WJ200-022SF insufficient?

Thanks Wayne

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
running an asynchronous spindle at only half speed is if not an outright mistake certainly poor practice.

If you run the spindle at half speed, the torque is about the same, but the speed if half, so you only get half the power, so instead of 3.2kW you'd get 1.6kW at best, and even that is likely
to overheat your spindle. In short you have paid a lot of money to get extra power but by not getting a matching VFD half of it is thrown away. Worse I think you'd destroy your spindle
in short order.

The above spindle current of 8.8@220 I assume is at 800Hz. Does running the spindle only to 400Hz increase this current demand at load and make the WJ200-022SF insufficient?

I would read it the same way, namely at rated speed ie 800Hz input 8.8A at 220VAC. Were you to run the spindle at 400Hz, the spindle would still take 8.8A but the voltage would be half, about 110VAC
If you tried to apply 220VAC at 400Hz to sort of 'get back all that power' the current would increase to 16A, and it would last for a few second before a puff of smoke stops everything.

The WJ200-022SF is good for 2.2kW. At only 400Hz you could only run your spindle to half speed, ie half power ie 1.6kW. So your VFD would get half power at best without undue risk to the spindle.

If anything goes wrong you have given JianKen the perfect opportunity to wash their hands of it, and to be honest I don't blame them . You are inviting trouble and disappointment. Get the matching VFD,
and I would not trust a cheap one.I personally like Delta VFDs but Hitachi also have a pretty good name.
Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,
running an asynchronous spindle at only half speed is if not an outright mistake certainly poor practice.

If you run the spindle at half speed, the torque is about the same, but the speed if half, so you only get half the power, so instead of 3.2kW you'd get 1.6kW at best, and even that is likely
to overheat your spindle. In short you have paid a lot of money to get extra power but by not getting a matching VFD half of it is thrown away. Worse I think you'd destroy your spindle
in short order.



I would read it the same way, namely at rated speed ie 800Hz input 8.8A at 220VAC. Were you to run the spindle at 400Hz, the spindle would still take 8.8A but the voltage would be half, about 110VAC
If you tried to apply 220VAC at 400Hz to sort of 'get back all that power' the current would increase to 16A, and it would last for a few second before a puff of smoke stops everything.

The WJ200-022SF is good for 2.2kW. At only 400Hz you could only run your spindle to half speed, ie half power ie 1.6kW. So your VFD would get half power at best without undue risk to the spindle.

If anything goes wrong you have given JianKen the perfect opportunity to wash their hands of it, and to be honest I don't blame them . You are inviting trouble and disappointment. Get the matching VFD,
and I would not trust a cheap one.I personally like Delta VFDs but Hitachi also have a pretty good name.
Craig

He is using a Hitachi VFD Drive so is a good quality VFD Drive so just as good if not better than the Delta VFD Drive

Most of the 4Pole spindle are rated at 12,000RPM with a max of 24,000RPM so would be fine to run at 12,000RPM, have to see the spindle specs to know for sure.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

He is using a Hitachi VFD Drive so is a good quality VFD Drive so just as good if not better than the Delta VFD Drive

Thats as maybe but it's still not the right one for his spindle. Either way I would avoid the cheap VFDs and get something better. I've had great results with Delta,
but to each his own.

How many posts have you responded to in the last six months alone where cheap Chinese spindles and/or VFDs have blown up?

I've already priced one of these spindles, it's so much more affordable than my preferred German brand, and they are around $1500USD, so I sure as hell do not want some
cheap VFD risk my spindle!

Craig

[Waynekofuco]

Thats as maybe but it's still not the right one for his spindle. Either way I would avoid the cheap VFDs and get something better. I've had great results with Delta,
but to each his own.

@joeavaerage I think you're conflating all Asian made equipment you're not familiar with as 'cheap'. Jainken is a quality Taiwanese spindle manufacturer and by no means cheap. I use Delta ac servos for kinematics and Hitachi VFD for the spindle driver as it was these both were the best fit for my original set up. If you can spec a single phase VFD that would work better than the one I already own please show me. I am happy to purchase the 'correct' VFD.

Biases aside...

Most of the 4Pole spindle are rated at 12,000RPM with a max of 24,000RPM

@mactec54
This is why I am so confused about the practical use of 4 pole spindles at 400Hz. I cant find it now, but I saw another spindle manufacturer w a posted graph of the power curve of their 800Hz 24000rpm spindle and the power/torque peaks at 12000rpm and falls off sharply after 18000rpm. It made no mention if the spindle was running at 800Hz or 400Hz...

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

I think you're conflating all Asian made equipment you're not familiar with as 'cheap'. Jainken is a quality Taiwanese spindle manufacturer and by no means cheap.

I quite agree. I use Delta products myself and am very likely to buy a Jianken spindle in the future. I do not consider either brand sub-standard. I do have reservations about many
of the cheapest made Chinese made VFDs. I have not named any but can promise you I will not be buying any such thing. If someone else does that is their concern, it will not be mine.

I have attached the power/torque curve for the 380V 2.5kW 100mm Jianken spindle, the closest I can find to the exact one he wants.

I clearly shows that the torque peaks at 1.27Nm around 8000 to 9000 rpm and remains constant up to rated speed of 24000rpm.

At 24000rpm the power is:
Power = 1.27 x (24000/60) x 2 x PI
=3191W....so close to the 3.2kW advertised.

At 12000 rpm the power is:
Power = 1.27 x (12000/60) x 2 x PI
=1595W....so about 1.6kW

It seems to me a shame that OP should pay good money for what I regard as a good spindle, one that I would like to have myself, but only get half the power out of it
than it is capable of.

When I priced the spindle, about 18 months ago, it was $1500USD. I just bought a 3.7kW Delta VFD capable of 800Hz for $475USD delivered here in New Zealand. I can well imagine that OP
would like to re-use is Hitachi VFD, but I just don't think its going to do justice to the new spindle, no matter how good Hitachi is.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I have attached the data sheet for the spindle I'd really like. Its 2.2kW so a little less powerful than what OP is proposing but it runs to 42000rpm and has a HSK25
tool interface which suits my work.

Note the power torque curve. The torque peaks at about 0.9Nm at 7000rpm and remains constant up to 21000rpm whereon it slowly falls away. The power curve grows to about 2.2kW at 21000rpm
but stays fairly constant up to 42000rpm. This last phase is called 'constant power' so the torque diminishes as the rpms increase but the product of the two remain about the same.

As nice as this spindle is, and I have a much smaller and much cheaper one from the same company and really impressed by it, this particular spindle when I priced it about 18 months ago
was 5700Euro. So it does not matter how good it is ....I can't afford one. I am more likely to get the exact same Jianken spindle that OP is talking about, although I think I'd probably choose
the ISO20 interface. Most of my work is at the highspeed end of the scale so don't really need BT30.

I thought it worth showing the power/torque curve.

Craig

[Waynekofuco]

@joeavaerage
Thanks for the thoughtful input. I understand what you're saying, but the ultimate goal is not to reuse the WJ200 VFD. The goal was to move to BT30 tooling with a Jainken spindle. Unfortunately Jainken only offers BT30 at 3.2Kw 800Hz. The hitch here is that I am located in the USA and limited to a single phase 50A circuit. I can find no single phase VFD over 2.2Kw.

This is a new machine build and still weighing my options. I may move from the Jainken to the CNCDepot S30 as its 2.2Kw BT30.

FYI, the ISO20 holders are hard to find locally in the US and the wrench system is kinda a pain to use in my opinion. I guess once your tool are mounted and stored in the machine its a mute point.

[mactec54]

Hi,



Thats as maybe but it's still not the right one for his spindle. Either way I would avoid the cheap VFDs and get something better. I've had great results with Delta,
but to each his own.

How many posts have you responded to in the last six months alone where cheap Chinese spindles and/or VFDs have blown up?

Craig

Just (1) that has failed, and that was after 10 years of use, I would not call that bad at all. Any VFD Drive or spindle can be damaged if incorrectly Programed

[mactec54]

@joeavaerage
Thanks for the thoughtful input. I understand what you're saying, but the ultimate goal is not to reuse the WJ200 VFD. The goal was to move to BT30 tooling with a Jainken spindle. Unfortunately Jainken only offers BT30 at 3.2Kw 800Hz. The hitch here is that I am located in the USA and limited to a single phase 50A circuit. I can find no single phase VFD over 2.2Kw.

This is a new machine build and still weighing my options. I may move from the Jainken to the CNCDepot S30 as its 2.2Kw BT30.

FYI, the ISO20 holders are hard to find locally in the US and the wrench system is kinda a pain to use in my opinion. I guess once your tool are mounted and stored in the machine its a mute point.

That is not an issue, you can use any 3Phase VFD Drive to run your spindle they will all run on Single Phase if you size it correctly, it will need a larger Kw rating than your spindle, there are a few good VFD Drives Yaskawa being the best choice for your spindle, which you can use full Vector Control so your 3.2Kw spindle would not be a problem.

When choosing the VFD for that spindle look at the specs for the input Amps you will need a VFD Drive that has a 30A plus rating for the input Amps this will give you max power for your 3.2Kw spindle and of cause has to be able to support 800Hz

[Waynekofuco]

That is not an issue, you can use any 3Phase VFD Drive to run your spindle they will all run on Single Phase if you size it correctly, it will need a larger Kw rating than your spindle, there are a few good VFD Drives Yaskawa being the best choice for your spindle, which you can use full Vector Control so your 3.2Kw spindle would not be a problem.

When choosing the VFD for that spindle look at the specs for the input Amps you will need a VFD Drive that has a 30A plus rating for the input Amps this will give you max power for your 3.2Kw spindle and of cause has to be able to support 800Hz

@Mactec54 can you give me a model # for the Yaskawa?
Thanks

[mactec54]

@Mactec54 can you give me a model # for the Yaskawa?
Thanks

You can also ask Jainken as they too will most likely suggest Fuling or one of these less expensive VFD Drives the Yaskawa would be the V1000 with the High Frequency Software=1000Hz standard Software for V1000=400Hz

This is a USA made spindle that is also worth looking at they use the Hitachi VFD Drive also

https://www.cncdepot.net/product-pag...arch-pre-order

[Waynekofuco]

@mactec54
Thanks, Ill check out the V1000 HF
I did check out the CNCDepot S30 a couple years ago, but there was a long delivery date for them. Ill check again...

[Waynekofuco]

Just got off ph w Alex at CNCDepot, the FM and S spindles are being updated, leadtime is 8 weeks. Super helpful guy.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
that's why I mentioned the 3.7kW Delta VFD that I bought recently, its not cheap but reasonably priced and includes free freight to New Zealand. I had it in five days....not sure
where it came from, I bought from Element14 and they have warehouses all over the planet.

This VFD is used in a three phase installation, but could quite happily be used in a single phase installation with a modest amount of derating.3.7kW derated to 3.2kW sounds about right.
Any decent VFD should work fine.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,
that's why I mentioned the 3.7kW Delta VFD that I bought recently, its not cheap but reasonably priced and includes free freight to New Zealand. I had it in five days....not sure
where it came from, I bought from Element14 and they have warehouses all over the planet.

This VFD is used in a three phase installation, but could quite happily be used in a single phase installation with a modest amount of derating.3.7kW derated to 3.2kW sounds about right.
Any decent VFD should work fine.

Craig

As I have said before there is no derating if the VFD Drive is correctly sized

You seem fixated with Delta when they are only a mid-range product. The GT HY VFD is better and is half the price.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

The GT HY VFD is better and is half the price.

Then you buy them, I think they're s***t.

Craig

[crjohnson]

For whats its worth I bought this Fuling 3.7kW VFD, supposed to have vector control but I believe its only up to a certain amount of Hz. I'm in Australia running it on single phase 230-240v power.

It's run perfect so far with my jianken JGH105/2.2kw, 800Hz, 4 pole spindle. Something tells me the extra torque from being '4 pole' isnt really there OR I have the VFD set up funny. It seems to bog doe easier than some 2 pole spindles I have seen when taking the same cuts etc. Even still it's done the job very well for a while now, I just set it to 550-600Hz and that does 99% of my cutting.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...21ef1802exZHWp

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
power= torque x rotational speed.

If a spindle generates 2.2kW at 24000 rpm the torque is 2200/(24000/60) x 2 x pi=0.87Nm.

Does not matter whether its two pole or four poll the torque is the same.

If however you had a 2 pole motor of 2.2kW at 24000 and the company offered a 4 pole version still 2.2kW but at 12000, then the torque would be double.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,



Then you buy them, I think they're s***t.

Craig

You have only installed one Delta VFD Drive and have no other experience than a single installation.