[peteeng]

Hi All & Sundry - I've started to build an 8x4" working size router. The intent is for it to be a mother machine to build small machines. It needs a high Z so it can make moulds and it will be made from laminated aluminium, concrete grout and maybe some carbon fibre. I have stayed out of making an 8x4 machine as they are big and need rack and pinion drives. But I have found that BST motion can supply helical cut racks at a good price. I'm now onto version 12. I have looked at drive belts and various machine configurations and have decided to build it with the gantry lengthwise not transverse. I like a high wall design as they are stiff and keep dust in control. My prior build Frankie tried out laminated plywood and aluminium parts and they were very successful. Stiff and damp. So I'm scaling up some of the ideas from Frankie. I've started building the benches for Lanky and next bit is to work on the machine base. Need to decide if its one piece or three pieces and whether I use aluminium stringers or ply. Several things to sort and that's why I'll document it here... Another aspect is that I want to use a high voltage drive system. Around 60-70V a new area for me... A new machine begins... Peter

Lanky 1 - a basic visualisation model for Lanky Version 11
Frankie Front - The last router
in place - Bench No1 for Lanky
rewire - The Nighthawk controller I shall use for Lanky being tested on a small router

[peteeng]

Hi all and sundry - Painting the Bench No2. Now to assemble it. I have made twin benches for this machine as one bench is too big and heavy to move by myself. I had to move a couple of routers during the pandemic and could not find people to help. So I had to pull them apart to move them. Same with the machine benches... Peter

[harryn]

Very interesting. Splitting it up into pieces that can be managed makes a lot of sense.

No one really knows when the next challenge in life will come around that prevents normal activity.

I work with higher DC voltages like that routinely. The main thing to be cautious about is that it likes to weld itself so add more fusing and voltage spike suppression than you might otherwise be used to. There is less room for doing things incorrectly.

The solar industry is a good place to find suitable components in the right voltage rating.

My hand tools are wrapped with electrical tape as a precaution in case one of them accidentally gets dropped in the wrong place.

[peteeng]

Evening All - Today I got Bench No2 all but. Tomorrow put the top on, touch up a couple of spots and were done. I think I'll connect the two together once I start the build. But for now they can be separate. I now have to detail the machine base. I'm torn between nearly all plywood or use quite a bit of aluminium extrusion. Cost and function will answer that soon. Peter

[harryn]

I wonder if your life would be easier if you were to build it closer to the ground instead of up in the air?

[harryn]

Could not see the photos for some reason earlier today. Now I can see your base benches. Looks good.

[peteeng]

Morning All - This morning I finished Bench No2 and touched up the edges. I did a quick Morris dance on it to see how strong it was and I'm happy with the result. Its a big skateboard as I had the brakes off! Onward the machine base. Peter

[rodw]

Pete, if you want to turn up the heat on voltage, Look for motor controllers that accept AC voltage and have a chat to Tortech about Toroid power supplies. The two attached are running 60v AC toroids so I guess the motors get around 90 volts. These were made to my specs by Tortech.
The black box is using Lam Technology stepper drivers and I configure them so they drop the amps to the motor to 30% when the motors are at constant velocity.
The other incomplete Box is using Rtelligent Ethercat drives and closed loop motors.

I did not eperience any issues with higher voltages but had a huge boost in performance.

The next box I build will use 220V AC servos, most likely ethercat ones. That way, there will be no power supply required. Give that serious consideration too.

[peteeng]

Hi Rod - I was looking at this sort of driver. Which is what you describe, I think. Digital Stepper Driver 2.4-7.2A 18-80VAC or 36-110VDC for Nema 34 Motor - DM860T|STEPPERONLINE (omc-stepperonline.com)

I'm definitely interested in running servos and looking at that as well. I want to make a very fast machine so optimising design towards speed. Light, stiff fast... Peter

[rodw]

Kind of but in the Volkswagen class, not the Lambogini I use. If you want to go open loop, my black box is running Italian made Lam Technologies DS1076 drivers https://www.lamtechnologies.com/Prod...=EN&idp=DS1076
Ron Nollet is the Australian Distributor. PM me and I can put you in touch.
These are without doubt the best on the planet. But they are about $350 each. I put them on my Plasma table and settled on 35 m/min rapids and 5 m/sec/sec acceleration. 64 volts 20 amp AC Tortech toroid.
I used Moon 2 x NEMA 34 Steppers with 5:1 reduction on the Y and throttled the Sanyo Denki Nema24 (3:1) on the X back from 60 m/sec and 8 m/sec/sec Acceleration to match.
But performance at this level needs a smart controller (I use linuxcnc and a custom component) so you can let them cool at lower current while at constant velocity. We did a lot of complex engineering to select the motors.
Average current was around 12% of maximum current in our design so reducing current when its not needed is very smart engineering. Steppers only loose steps if they get hot. If you keep them cool, they will go all day.
The Lams are rated at constant current, so are vastly different to the way the Chinese rate drives.
If I used them again I would run at 55 volts which is Lams recommendation.

The other box uses Rtelligent Nema 34 closed loop Ethercat steppers, 60 volt toroid. They run a mill table and are trottled right back due to the mass they move. Inertia of a mill took a bit of getting used to after a plasma table!

If I went AC, I would probably use Rtelligent RSE ethercat drive (about $500 with the motor), but they do have the same drive in non Ethercat. There are cheaper options, but these are well documented.
AC Servo Drive-Rtelligent Probably with 10:1 planetaries.

I've worked with Ethercat a fair bit now, Ethercat Spindle encoders are expensive so I don't have one on my mill. I think rigid tapping is overrated because threadmilling is super simple and much easier on the machine. I have some Beckhoff Ethercat modules now so may add a encoder to them one day. I use RS485 to control the spindle via a USB interface. I like it because it gives good feedback on load etc.

Ron did quote me $700 or so for some non-ethercat servos if you want local support. (Panasonic I think)

All I can say is if you get away from the basic Chinese steppers, the increase in performance is gobsmacking!

Cheers mate, good luck.. You have so much experience, its time to step up with your motion hardware if it is for yourself!

[rodw]

Pete, if I did an ethercat gantry machine, I would use some high flex mains cable from Treotham to power the motors and either add a poe injector to put 24 v power to the motors or add a small 24v power supply (like Meanwell HDR-15-24) to power any motor IO. The motors have their own I/O ports for limits and homing. Then at the gantry, probably a 16 input /16 output module on the gantry for all the IO up there. SO basically, there would not be a control box so it would be a very clean streamlined build.

Ethercat adds complexity though!

[peteeng]

Hi Rod - Your system is definitely Lamborghini level. Some back-story on Lanky. I have stayed out of full sheet machines for some time due to no demand for such a machine and for me no purpose. Plus when I looked at R&P years ago I didn't have a reasonable cost solution. But that has changed, I can get good helical R&P thru BST Motion. I try to make machines that have a demand and that serve my purposes. I've decided that Aluminium/ply laminated gantries are very good but to make gantries for a half sheet machine I need a big machine. Plus an enquiry from 2 years ago got in touch and now wants a full sheet machine. The aim is for him to make his own parts on his current half sheet machine to my design. So Lanky is driven by that customer really and the Makers I deal with don't want Lambos. I suppose they want a Lambo but don't have the $$$ for such a machine If they did they would be buying commercial machines not kits. So Lanky is a budget kit machine design but my machine can have a few frills to experiment with if it's useful for gaining knowledge. I realise there are industrial systems like you have used with massive performance. If I used this type of system I'd be obliged to make the machine to the same standard. In this case I think it would be mainly aluminium , mostly bolted together but some parts to be welded then finish machined if it was to be a one off. If it was to be a serial production machine then I think most parts would be moulded glass composite, some carbon fibre and some cast UHPC. One day I may realise that level of machine, I think I've done most of the homework now. The next design is a 5 axis trunnion machine, maybe that's the one to step out of the low cost cycle and go to the performance level stuff. Peter

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

These are without doubt the best on the planet. But they are about $350 each.

I've used 750W Delta AC B2 series servos (kit) (160,000 count/rev, 230VAC input) on my new build mill. They 'eat any stepper ever made'. They cost $438USD plus another $150USD shipping to New Zealand.
The 400W B2 servos (kit) are only modestly cheaper at $398USD.

$350AUD for a stepper driver verses $398USD for a complete 400W servo kit?????

I voted with my wallet and bought four 750W B2's at $438USD each and one 750W B2 with electromagnetic brake, $550USD. (Five axis)

Craig

[rodw]

The exchange rate goes against any of us who depend on any of the Pacific Pesos. 550 USD is around AUD $950 at current exchange rates.
There are much better deals to be had out of China, including Delta
But yes I agree, steppers are only useful where the design can utilise their low down touque. (Which can mean massive acceleration if light load no cutting forces)
220v AC Servo is the way to go if you leave steppers behind.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I got my last 750W servo about four months ago, and it cost $438USD plus $156USD three day FEDEX. I paid $1014NZD. I suspect the suppliers lied about the value because I did not have to apy GST
when it came into the country, but in truth GST is due. So I understand full well the cost of buying US dollars with Pacific Pesos.

There are much better deals to be had out of China, including Delta

The company I buy from I have been using for a few years and have confidence in, and that counts. I could save $75USD from some other Chinese suppliers....but then they could rip me off too.
The little I could save is less than my piece of mind.....is it worth it? To date I have not thought so.

A while ago I broke my servo driven spindle, and am contemplating buying a 2kW Delta B2 kit, cost $895USD from my regular supplier. The closest I've seen is $495 for a 1.5kW Delta B2
from Alibaba......so the savings look pretty compelling but am I prepared to trust some unknown supplier?

If you choose to buy cheap Chinese then you are on your own. The documentation is anywhere from fair to atrocious and no set up and tuning software. Do yourself a favour and avoid them like the plague.

Craig

[rodw]

Hi,
I got my last 750W servo about four months ago, and it cost $438USD plus $156USD three day FEDEX. I paid $1014NZD. I suspect the suppliers lied about the value because I did not have to apy GST
when it came into the country, but in truth GST is due. So I understand full well the cost of buying US dollars with Pacific Pesos.

If you choose to buy cheap Chinese then you are on your own. The documentation is anywhere from fair to atrocious and no set up and tuning software. Do yourself a favour and avoid them like the plague.

Craig

Craig, what rot. Where do you think Delta servos are built? There are some very good Chinese suppliers but if you buy on price from anywhere you are often disappointed.
I actually had a Supplier travel 5 hours to meet me face to face when I visited Shanghai for a trade show just before Covid.

I mentioned rtelligent A rtelligent 750 W servo (

RSMA-M08J2430A KIT) will set you back AUD $733 + AUD $55 shipping and there is a link to perfectly written English documentation.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000051030519.html

Contact them direct with your requirements and you may even pay a bit less.

There are others for around $300 but I prefer to buy once!

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Where do you think Delta servos are built? There are some very good Chinese suppliers but if you buy on price from anywhere you are often disappointed.

Yes, I know exactly where they are built, and I have no problems buying Chinese made products......to whit I buy Delta servos, and am more than happy with the quality and support.
Additionally I have found a supplier in whom I have confidence. So I have the two things that I need, confidence in the design and performance of the product I want and a supplier
with fair prices.

There are some very good Chinese suppliers but if you buy on price from anywhere you are often disappointed.

Exactly, so that's why I don't buy on price alone, I look for other corroborating data before I commit.

If you want to buy cheap no-brand stuff....go for your life.....I refuse.

Craig

[peteeng]

Afternoon All - I have been working on the gantry drive. It defines the wall top width. The wall top will be capped with aluminium so I need to know this so it agrees with available extrusions. Turns out 100mm is Ok can get that in 6/10/12mm thick. I usually use 10mm but this time I'll use 6mm I think. So now I can flesh out the machine bases and the walls. Peter

[peteeng]

Gidday Yu all - I have nearly sorted the machine base. Need to change the feet beams and I think its done. Its 2.9mx1.8m. Makes the gantry 2.6m wide. Want to get the base on its way... On another matter I'm thinking of running the gantry using a servo. The Nighthawk controller uses 3.3V control signals. Will this be enough for the "5V" controller inputs? Lots of reading to be done in the manual... Want to get into the servo learning curve... I've been asked to think about a 5 axis polishing robot and servos would be good there. Peter

I was out for a ride the other day and a commercial shop had its front door open and it had beautiful sculptured concrete chairs in it. I peeked in and started talking to the stonemason who made them. Been a couple of years developing the moulds and process in UHPC. Was good to chat to someone who knew about concrete.

https://www.crosini.com.au/

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

The Nighthawk controller uses 3.3V control signals. Will this be enough for the "5V" controller inputs?

Not many servos use 5V inputs anyway. Almost all servos use either 12V or even more commonly 24V signaling, so you'll have to use a MOSFET or BJT to signal them anyway.
Even more importantly single ended signaling is common with steppers, but its speed limited, very often limited to 150kHz to 200kHz. With servos you have both resolution and speed
so you'd want to signal them at higher rates, and almost all prefer differential signaling. This is the standard you should be looking at. I signal my Delta servos at up to 416.7kHz, at that
requires differential signaling, no ifs or buts.

The screenshot is a pic from the Chinese manual (not a good manual by the way).....but even the Chinese recommend differential signaling....and if used 'one end' (that's 'single ended' in Chinglish)
you need 12V to 24V.

If you wish to use differential signaling then a 26LS31 is the industry standard differential quad line driver IC, and cheap as chips, a couple of dollars at most. When I made my breakout board I used AEIC7272 IC's, because they
are input voltage tolerant , ie 3.3V or 5V, and they have very good over current and over voltage protection on the outputs and have a separate supply so you can tailor the differential output swing.
As the saying goes 'they as smooth as a babies arse'. Cost about $11.00 NZD each mind, for a differential quad line driver.

https://nz.element14.com/broadcom-li...-16/dp/2447897

If the Nighthawk has 3.3V outputs you're are going to have to buffer/amplify them anyway.......no choice. 3.3V is fine to signal another electronic device on the same board, but signaling servos or steppers or turning on
pumps or spindles....no way.... 3.3V couldn't 'pull the skin off a rice pudding'. Whether you like it or not you are going to have to do some very simple electronics.

To be honest if you've not had exposure to servos the ones you have linked to are a poor choice. You will need set-up and tuning software otherwise you going to go crazy trying to set them up.
If you'd had plenty of exposure to servos then you'd negotiate these no trouble but as a first up I think your asking for trouble.

Craig