[Zoomy_Unknown]

Hi,
I'm new to the world of CNC, and don't even own my own machine yet. I love the idea of creating objects from scratch, and I'm willing to take the time to learn it all.

The machine I'm considering is the Shapeoko HDM. My idea is to create aluminum molds for plastic injection molding. I know it's a process, but I've been doing a lot of research on the subject, and I think I've got most of it down pad. It'd be a dream come true, honestly, even as just a hobby.

However, there are a few things I'm unsure about, and that are keeping me from jumping into this.

1) Can a machine like the Shapeoko HDM be good at doing small, detailed, 3D jobs on aluminum?

2) Is it possible to get clean, smooth finishes on such a machine, and what exactly is the process? I'm terrified of getting jagged results (which would be clearly seen on the plastic), and it looks like it's the norm when it comes to cutting aluminum.

3) Last question, though a little off topic. Is there any material that would be easier for a less-powerful machine to cut, but that can withstand the injection molding process, albeit for a shorter run? I suppose it'd be something with high thermal conductivity and a high melting point?


Thank you for taking a look. Any advice would be much appreciated!

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

The Shapeoko HDM is a router style CNC machine and it will cut aluminum but it will do so vey slowly or it will start to flex and deflect. Its not really rigid enough for
what you want. Additionally I'd recommend flood cooling, and that machine is not well suited to enclosing it in a manner that makes flood cooling convenient.
Lots of others recommend air blast and minimal lubrication, I did not have much success with air blast, but flood cooling I did. Take from that what you may.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I would recommend that you look at some of the many drill-mills out there. This is an example:

https://rongfu.com/mill-drill-machin...-machine-rf45/

Machines such as this are rigid enough to do aluminum well and with care can do steel. It is not CNC, but many such machines have been converted to CNC and have resulted in useful machines.

Craig

[awerby]

Take a look at the Taig CNC mills. They're good at producing small detailed parts in metal. If your parts fit in its (admittedly rather small) envelope, they're an economical option for a CNC mill you don't have to retrofit from a manual mill. We sell them at a discount from the manufacturer's price, which is already quite reasonable. https://computersculpture.com/taig-m...-cnc-equipped/

[Zoomy_Unknown]

Hi,

The Shapeoko HDM is a router style CNC machine and it will cut aluminum but it will do so vey slowly or it will start to flex and deflect. Its not really rigid enough for
what you want. Additionally I'd recommend flood cooling, and that machine is not well suited to enclosing it in a manner that makes flood cooling convenient.
Lots of others recommend air blast and minimal lubrication, I did not have much success with air blast, but flood cooling I did. Take from that what you may.

Craig

Thank you for the advice. It's odd, though , as I've seen so much praise for the HDM's aluminum-cutting capabilities.

Anyway, what would you recommend I go with instead? As an absolute beginner, I'd like to go with something reliable and somewhat beginner-friendly (this is one of things that interested me in Shapeoko).

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Thank you for the advice. It's odd, though , as I've seen so much praise for the HDM's aluminum-cutting capabilities.

I don't mean to criticise the HDM.......but do you think spindly aluminum extrusions are as stiff as cast iron and steel of the RF45?. When it comes to machining metals you need a
super rigid machine....there is no such thing as 'overly rigid' machine, but rather a seemingly 'overbuilt' machine will maintain tolerances and finishes than an 'under built' machine
will never match,.

awerby's recommendation is good. Taig have been around for a long time and thousands of users have hundreds of thousands of hours use.

If you are considering Taig the I'd absolutely have to go with ballscrews, they are just so much better than leadscrews for backlash free detailed work. Spindles, steppers, power supplies etc
can all be upgraded later if you so desire, but ballscrews are at the heart of the machine, get ballscrews from the beginning.

The drill-mill I linked to is just a typical version, there are many manufacturers with a range of models. Ideally you'd want a square or rectangular column with dovetails as they are more rigid than cylindrical columns,
but are commensurately more expensive. Where you to find a good and rigid example second hand that would be a major plus for going in this direction....and if you are patient many good drill-mills do come onto the
market with hardly any use whatever.

When all said and done such a drill-mill is only a bigger Taig, they are essentially the same construction, just the drill-mill is bigger and therefore more expensive.

There are a number of threads where these machines have been converted, and it is not for the faint hearted, on the other hand its not difficult. It depends rather on you. If making
injection moulded parts is what you want to do then shagging around converting a drill-mill to CNC is not likely to appeal. If however you are interested in CNC as a hobby then
such a challenge may be a great thing to do.

I designed and built my own CNC mill, in part because I am a CNC enthusiast but I also now use it to make parts for my business. A happy confluence. It is somewhat larger than
the RF45 I linked to, and maybe somewhat more capable, but not by much, that is to say my machine can do steel, but like the RF45, with care. My machine has cost me about $20,000USD
to date and that does not count the trunnion fifth axis I've just finished. So you might say I have paid dearly for the privilege of designing and build my own machine. Building you own machine is satisfying,
if you want that sort of challenge, but is usually much more expensive than buying something already built, even if you had to convert to CNC.

Craig

[Zoomy_Unknown]

Take a look at the Taig CNC mills. They're good at producing small detailed parts in metal. If your parts fit in its (admittedly rather small) envelope, they're an economical option for a CNC mill you don't have to retrofit from a manual mill. We sell them at a discount from the manufacturer's price, which is already quite reasonable. https://computersculpture.com/taig-m...-cnc-equipped/

Taig mills seem very good, actually! I wasn't really considering them for some reason, but I'm finding out how capable they are, especially for the price. Lots of options, too. Any you'd recommend specifically for 3D carving?

[Zoomy_Unknown]

Hi,

I don't mean to criticise the HDM.......but do you think spindly aluminum extrusions are as stiff as cast iron and steel of the RF45?. When it comes to machining metals you need a
super rigid machine....there is no such thing as 'overly rigid' machine, but rather a seemingly 'overbuilt' machine will maintain tolerances and finishes than an 'under built' machine
will never match,.

awerby's recommendation is good. Taig have been around for a long time and thousands of users have hundreds of thousands of hours use.

If you are considering Taig the I'd absolutely have to go with ballscrews, they are just so much better than leadscrews for backlash free detailed work. Spindles, steppers, power supplies etc
can all be upgraded later if you so desire, but ballscrews are at the heart of the machine, get ballscrews from the beginning.

The drill-mill I linked to is just a typical version, there are many manufacturers with a range of models. Ideally you'd want a square or rectangular column with dovetails as they are more rigid than cylindrical columns,
but are commensurately more expensive. Where you to find a good and rigid example second hand that would be a major plus for going in this direction....and if you are patient many good drill-mills do come onto the
market with hardly any use whatever.

When all said and done such a drill-mill is only a bigger Taig, they are essentially the same construction, just the drill-mill is bigger and therefore more expensive.

There are a number of threads where these machines have been converted, and it is not for the faint hearted, on the other hand its not difficult. It depends rather on you. If making
injection moulded parts is what you want to do then shagging around converting a drill-mill to CNC is not likely to appeal. If however you are interested in CNC as a hobby then
such a challenge may be a great thing to do.

I designed and built my own CNC mill, in part because I am a CNC enthusiast but I also now use it to make parts for my business. A happy confluence. It is somewhat larger than
the RF45 I linked to, and maybe somewhat more capable, but not by much, that is to say my machine can do steel, but like the RF45, with care. My machine has cost me about $20,000USD
to date and that does not count the trunnion fifth axis I've just finished. So you might say I have paid dearly for the privilege of designing and build my own machine. Building you own machine is satisfying,
if you want that sort of challenge, but is usually much more expensive than buying something already built, even if you had to convert to CNC.

Craig

Thank you very much for the detailed response; truly invaluable info! The Taig, like I told Awerby, seems very interesting, and reasonably priced, considering. And now with you vouching for it as well, I'm more than likely going to go with that.

If you have any other info regarding 3D carving with a Taig, including what model you'd recommend, any specific bits, etc., I'd greatly appreciate it! Like I said, I'm very new to all this, and want to learn as much as I can.

As for your mill, it looks incredible! I love how you've added so much to it over the years. It really shows what one can do with a CNC machine if they're patient and passionate enough.

[Titaniumboy]

Grizzly G0704 mill/drill CNC conversions might work for you.

Automation Direct has a G0704 CNC mill selling for $4800.

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...3-kit/g0704cnc


G0704 CNC conversions show up on eBay once in a while. There is a G0704 CNC mill and a G0752 CNC lathe on eBay right now selling for $6500 for the pair in Arizona.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12610045719...Bk9SR5it_dn4Yg


Langmuir Systems has their MR-1 CNC Gantry Mill starting at $4500.

https://www.langmuirsystems.com/mr1


I have no personal experience with any of these machines except that I have a manual G0704 mill and a manual G0602 lathe (non-variable speed version of the G0752 lathe).

[metalmayhem]

I think I've seen that mr1 once before . if it is the one i'm thinking of then it needs concrete fill which is a massive put off in my eyes

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

I love how you've added so much to it over the years. It really shows what one can do with a CNC machine if they're patient and passionate enough.

I've been using the machine since I 'finished it' about 2.5 years ago......so it has not developed as much as I would like. Its all about budget.
What may not be plainly evident from the pic is that my machine is based on three cast iron axis beds, which are bolted to a steel frame. I had the beds cast, which is costly, and then
had them precision machined which is eye-wateringly expensive. I fitted them with new old stock linear rails and cars by THK and near new C5 ground BNFN 32mm ballscrews by THK.
I reasoned that the axis beds are the heart of the machine. I might upgrade the frame, or the servos, or the spindle, or the coolant pump and filter system....but the axis beds will remain the
same. Therefore I spared no expense on what I considered the heart of the machine and will probably remain unchanged for many years, even decades.

I suggest you think along the same lines, ie 'what are the most important parts of the machine with regards to rigidity, accuracy and longevity and what parts are peripheral to that and could
be upgraded later?'. With some care and forethought you could end up with a machine that will last you many years, and still be a worthy sale as second hand when you want to move up.
A good example is the Taig as fitted with steppers. If you want highly dynamic and accurate 3D toolpaths then servos would be better, but steppers would be fine to start with.
Not much point putting servos onto plain leadscrews....therefore to keep your future options open get ballscrews from the outset.

Craig

[Titaniumboy]

Yep, the Langmuir MR-1 does require the user to pour concrete in the base. That seems to be unique to the Langmuir machine.

Another option that I forgot to mention is the smallest mill that Tormach sells, which is the PCNC 440. A stripped Tormach 440 goes for around $7000.

https://tormach.com/pcnc-440-entry-package.html

[Zoomy_Unknown]

Hi,



I've been using the machine since I 'finished it' about 2.5 years ago......so it has not developed as much as I would like. Its all about budget.
What may not be plainly evident from the pic is that my machine is based on three cast iron axis beds, which are bolted to a steel frame. I had the beds cast, which is costly, and then
had them precision machined which is eye-wateringly expensive. I fitted them with new old stock linear rails and cars by THK and near new C5 ground BNFN 32mm ballscrews by THK.
I reasoned that the axis beds are the heart of the machine. I might upgrade the frame, or the servos, or the spindle, or the coolant pump and filter system....but the axis beds will remain the
same. Therefore I spared no expense on what I considered the heart of the machine and will probably remain unchanged for many years, even decades.

I suggest you think along the same lines, ie 'what are the most important parts of the machine with regards to rigidity, accuracy and longevity and what parts are peripheral to that and could
be upgraded later?'. With some care and forethought you could end up with a machine that will last you many years, and still be a worthy sale as second hand when you want to move up.
A good example is the Taig as fitted with steppers. If you want highly dynamic and accurate 3D toolpaths then servos would be better, but steppers would be fine to start with.
Not much point putting servos onto plain leadscrews....therefore to keep your future options open get ballscrews from the outset.

Craig

Man, a lot to it. But sounds like an awesome project.

And thanks again for the tips! I'll be taking it all into account as I continue to work towards getting the machine.

[Zoomy_Unknown]

Grizzly G0704 mill/drill CNC conversions might work for you.

Automation Direct has a G0704 CNC mill selling for $4800.

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...3-kit/g0704cnc


G0704 CNC conversions show up on eBay once in a while. There is a G0704 CNC mill and a G0752 CNC lathe on eBay right now selling for $6500 for the pair in Arizona.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12610045719...Bk9SR5it_dn4Yg


Langmuir Systems has their MR-1 CNC Gantry Mill starting at $4500.

https://www.langmuirsystems.com/mr1


I have no personal experience with any of these machines except that I have a manual G0704 mill and a manual G0602 lathe (non-variable speed version of the G0752 lathe).

Thank you for the recommendations! I'll look into them.

[6061billet]

Shapeoko could produce molds as long as you were ok with low tolerances and a lot of hand finishing. Something like a prototype fishing lure where exact dimensions aren't critical. You could end up with a fairly smooth finish but a 0.003" bow or dip in parts. CNC routers are designed for largest cutting footprint at the lowest cost so they are also the lowest tolerance machines. A cnc mill like a Tormach 440 would hold 0.001" or better tolerances easily but it's many times heaver. That mass is needed to eliminate deviations caused by vibration. I would not recommend a mill drill conversion at all. A taig is a very capable machine but it's much smaller and slower. If you want a desktop machine it's probably the best option for small molds. We don't know if you are putting this in your apartment bedroom or one bay of your garage. The Tormach 440 is a 500lb machine. Which to me still seems tiny. I have a Tormach PCNC1100 in an 800lb custom enclosure. Mass is your friend.

[peteeng]

Hi Zoom - You say these moulds are for injection moulding. Have you spoken to the moulder about this? or are you planning to do the moulding yourself? There's much more to a plastic injection moulding tool then just the cavity. I'd leave the mould making to a mould maker or the moulder. I work with plastic moulders and I certainly would not attempt to make a mould on a S-oko then give it to a moulder. They will probably refuse to use it for various reasons. Peter