[HelicopterJohn]

Has anyone purchased this option on a TM-1P and if so I would like to have your comments. Any issues? Any positive notes?

Thanks in advance for your valued input.

John

[Donkey Hotey]

Hello again John. I guess I'm going to chase you all over this board.

I have the Renishaw probing option but mine has the cabled presetter (same operation but the wireless one won't develop cable problems).

I love the whole system and can't imagine life without it. Before buying the machine, I had no idea how long it would take to preset a whole carousel of tools or to reliably find a work offset origin.

It was a last minute addition to my VF2. I had a pretty good idea of the options I wanted and had a very specific machine worked out when we sat down to write the sales order. At the last minute, he asked me about the probing and told me what a good deal it was. Yeah, I know--he's a sales guy but mine happens to be as honest as the day is long. He talked me out of a number of options that I thought I needed. How many sales people do that?

For the price of the probing, I automatically got Visual Quick Code, Macros and coordinate rotation and scaling. Considering that value, it cut the net cost of the probing down to $1-2K (I can't remember for sure). It was a screaming deal and today, I can't believe I almost didn't get it. Here's how it works and why you want it:

When you set it up, you load the probe into the spindle. If you get a changer, put it into the last pocket (not the first or it will end up being the tool left in the spindle at shutdown).

You need to get a calibrated ring gauge of 3-6" diameter. I bought a surplus one from eBay that had been laser measured to five decimal places and marked where the measurement was taken for about $25. That is your master diameter for all the rest of the setup.

There's a template in the VQC that you run to set-up the probe. You hand jog the tip down inside the ring gauge and tell it the approximate diameter. The machine touches off the inside of the ring. It uses these movements to calibrate the ruby tip diameter and the 'set point' of the switches in the probe. You also give the control the length of the probe though this is less critical. This all becomes your 'master tool' and everything else is set relative to that probe length. It's the same as touching off 'tool 1' and setting the rest relative to it.

The second step is to touch the probe off of the tool presetter. This establishes where the presetter is in the machine and the limits of its switches. Once this is done, you now have a place to touch off every one of your tools and get repeatable numbers.

The setup only happens once (as long as you don't move the presetter). Now you're ready to set up a job:

Tool Presetting: Launch the proper VQC template, hand jog each tool close to the presetter and hit cycle start. It spins the tool backward and slowly touches off the tip length and diameter, then loads them into the tool offset registers. It's done. That's it. For specialty tools, you can touch off 'just the diameter' or 'just the length' for more control. Drills are a piece of cake because you don't even have to handjog them into position. Tell it how long the drills are and it will touch them off, one after another.

Yeah, yeah, big deal, right? We're not done. Now you need to set a work offset. Here are a few scenarios:

Touching off a vise job: I use a workstop on my Kurt vise so I have a positive X stop. I also like to use the back jaw as Y and the top of the parallels as Z. It's tough to get the probe down inside the vise or to find the little clamp-on workstop. Simple: I drop a 123 block in there and clamp it. Launch the proper VQC template, handjog the probe down to the respective side and touch off the upper left corner of the 123 block. When I'm done, I go into the work offset and I subtract 1" from the Z value (the thickness of the block above the parallels). G54 is now the upper left corner of the block, with zero down on the parallels. I use the 123 block instead of saw-cut stock because I want the Z value to be precise. 'Relative to the parallels' is how I get my final part dimensions in Z.

Touching off a round part or locating a hole: This one is sweet. Clamp the work in a vise, chuck, collet closer or whatever is appropriate. Handjog the probe into a bore or around a cylinder. Launch the appropriate VQC template and answer the questions. The machine touches off the diameter and sets the X and Y position of the work offset right in the center of the bore. No fuss, no muss. No centering indicators. No math. I can probe a bore faster than somebody could unfold a test indicator and put it on the spindle. Touch off your Z surface however you want and you're ready to go.

Touching off a rectangular plate: Clamp it do the table or fixture however you want. Aside from the method above for the vise, you can also find the center of a rectangle. Handjog down to where you're close to the plate and in the approximate center. Give the VQC template the approximate dimensions and hit cycle start. It probes all of the edges and puts your work offset dead center on the rectangle.

This was my first CNC and I figured this stuff out in the first few nights of playing with it. Today, I can't imagine that I ever considered owning the machine without it. It makes job setup so much easier and faster that anybody not getting it is missing the boat.

Also: I looked at your website. If that's the kind of stuff you're building, you might consider a VF2. I know, I know, you don't think you can afford it. Take a long look at what an optioned TM1P will cost you and you're creeping very, very close to the cost of a VF2.

The VF2 comes standard with a tool changer. It has a 3/4 horsepower coolant pump that literally has more volume and pressure than a household garden hose. You get a real enclosure where you can really spray the coolant and chips. You get a larger envelope. You get a 7500 RPM spindle (10 and 15K available). The list goes on and on. There really is no comparison.

And if you're trying to get it into a low garage, the Z axis motor can be removed and the machine will scoot under a standard garage door opening. Overall height of the cabling track is just above an eight foot ceiling but if you're creative in the machine placement, you can cut a relief hole in the ceiling, between beams to clear it. The only caveat is you have to get the Umbrella tool changer, not the sidemount. The sidemount won't fit through the low door.

Sorry--another novel. I've gotta' go get some things done

Edit: I just saw that the TM1P comes with a Marposs system instead of the Renishaw package that comes with the VF2. You might check into what's included in that package. At that price, I don't know if you're getting the coordinate rotation & scaling, macros, etc as I mentioned above.

[HelicopterJohn]

Hi Greg,

Many thanks for the useful information on the Renishaw probe. I have already had the conversation with my HAAS salesman about the Renishaw and Marposs probing systems.

They (HAAS) very cleverly changed the description on the sales brochure to read wireless intutitive probing system $4995.00. Previously it said Renishaw probing system. Which means they can now select either a Renishaw or Marpross system to ship with your new machine (their option). Wonder which one is more expensive and reliable????

I told my salesman if I couldn't be guaranteed the Renishaw probing system that I would not purchase the machine. Guess what? I get a call back the next day saying they would gladly ship the machine with the Renishaw probe system. I was glad he made the call to the factory and got that cleared up for me.

Yes, when you purchase the optional wireless intutitive probing system @ $4995.00, macros and coordinate Rotation & Scaling are also included at no charge on the TM-1P toolroom mill.

While I was at the HAAS Demo Day a Renishaw Representative was there and he had a little briefcase with some electronic guages hooked up to a laptop that he was doing some kind of a setup on a TM-2 they had in their showroom. It had different length guage bar that moved in a circular motion. It sounds similar to what you described with the calibrated ring gauge.

Are you telling me that you have to purchase an optional calibrated ring gauge to setup the probing system? I would have thought they (HAAS) would have performed this setup at the factory.

Any addtional information would be appreciated.

P.S. Thanks for chasing me with the information

John

[Donkey Hotey]

It had different length guage bar that moved in a circular motion. It sounds similar to what you described with the calibrated ring gauge.

That sounds like the ballbar test. No, this is different and just uses the probe and presetter.

Are you telling me that you have to purchase an optional calibrated ring gauge to setup the probing system? I would have thought they (HAAS) would have performed this setup at the factory.

Yeah, I kind of expected that too but I guess they consider the ring gauge to be a basic 'precision tool' like a micrometer or test indicator. I think they actually suggest something like "any round hole of known diameter such as a ring gauge."

I originally set it up with an aluminum ring that I bored on my lathe and measured with my telescoping gauge and micrometer. You could use any perfectly round hole of known diameter. I used that for months until I found a ring gauge on eBay. New ring gauges of that size are $300+. It was worth the wait. They do turn up so keep searching.

Remember: the ring gauge establishes the 'master' side-to-side dimensions for the probe. This will affect all future setups so the more accurate you set it, the more accurate things will be (you actually have to type in what the 'master dimension' of the ring is so the control can calibrate to it).

I believe the tool presetter gets its own 'master diameter' from the values reported by the probe tip. So if your first probe setup includes a dimension that is 0.001" off at the probe, all of your work offsets will be 0.001" off and your tool offsets will be off by the same amount (because the presetter was calibrated from the same dimensions). That adds up on both sides of the part and the cutter. You could end up starting with 0.004-0.008" error built into your process before you ever start.

By carefully setting up the probing with a calibrated ring gauge, I'm able to nail final machined dimensions with very little effort. I even left it clamped to the table for a few hours so it thermally stabilized before doing the calibration. None of this is really 'necessary' but I think careful setup has paid off. It's produced better parts than I think I could have done if I had been using standard 'touch off' procedures using paper or trial & error offset adjustments in the control.

There is just a little more to the setup that I left out for the sake of simplicity. I don't think they set it up from the factory because different people will use it differently. Some only use it for precision setup. I consider it part of my basic machine (the probe never leaves the machine).

When you set up the probe, you have to turn on the spindle and indicate the ruby into concentricity. There are set screws at the root of the probe/cat40 flange that allow this.

Then you have to indicate the top of the tool presetter to get it perfectly level. It's the same thing: screws on the base where it mounts to the table.

Those are one-time adjustments as long as you don't crash anything or bump into it.

[Cory]

That sounds like the ballbar test. No, this is different and just uses the probe and presetter.



Yeah, I kind of expected that too but I guess they consider the ring gauge to be a basic 'precision tool' like a micrometer or test indicator. I think they actually suggest something like "any round hole of known diameter such as a ring gauge."

I originally set it up with an aluminum ring that I bored on my lathe and measured with my telescoping gauge and micrometer. You could use any perfectly round hole of known diameter. I used that for months until I found a ring gauge on eBay. New ring gauges of that size are $300+. It was worth the wait. They do turn up so keep searching.

Remember: the ring gauge establishes the 'master' side-to-side dimensions for the probe. This will affect all future setups so the more accurate you set it, the more accurate things will be (you actually have to type in what the 'master dimension' of the ring is so the control can calibrate to it).

I believe the tool presetter gets its own 'master diameter' from the values reported by the probe tip. So if your first probe setup includes a dimension that is 0.001" off at the probe, all of your work offsets will be 0.001" off and your tool offsets will be off by the same amount (because the presetter was calibrated from the same dimensions). That adds up on both sides of the part and the cutter. You could end up starting with 0.004-0.008" error built into your process before you ever start.

By carefully setting up the probing with a calibrated ring gauge, I'm able to nail final machined dimensions with very little effort. I even left it clamped to the table for a few hours so it thermally stabilized before doing the calibration. None of this is really 'necessary' but I think careful setup has paid off. It's produced better parts than I think I could have done if I had been using standard 'touch off' procedures using paper or trial & error offset adjustments in the control.

There is just a little more to the setup that I left out for the sake of simplicity. I don't think they set it up from the factory because different people will use it differently. Some only use it for precision setup. I consider it part of my basic machine (the probe never leaves the machine).

When you set up the probe, you have to turn on the spindle and indicate the ruby into concentricity. There are set screws at the root of the probe/cat40 flange that allow this.

Then you have to indicate the top of the tool presetter to get it perfectly level. It's the same thing: screws on the base where it mounts to the table.

Those are one-time adjustments as long as you don't crash anything or bump into it.

This was not the case with our machine.

We got a VF-1 with the probe. Installed May of this year. The Haas tech did all the setup. He brought a ring gage, and calibrated the probe.

He did the calibration of the tool presetter differently than you describe. The probe comes with a little package of spare screws, allen keys, and a small gage pin. We mounted the gage pin in a toolholder, and then the machine touches off on all 4 sides of the toolsetting disc to find center. Since the gage pin is a known diameter, the machine knows exactly where the disc is.

If you buy a machine new, you absolutely should not have to do the calibration yourself. The only thing you should have to do is tell the machine which pocket the work probe is in. Haas should do everything else in the initial setup.

As for the actual probe itself, I second everything he said. We do lots of onesies and twosies, with our highest quantities being 30-40 of a given part. The probe is absolutely invaluable. It's already paid for itself. It makes our setups so much quicker and simpler. Our parts also come out more accurate because there's no human error involved.

[Donkey Hotey]

Ahhh...you're right. I did use a gauge pin for the presetter diameter. It's been a long time. Yes, it was new but I was on my own with the probing. Actually, I didn't think to ask.

[JPMach]

You will still want to get a ring gage to re calibrate the probe at least twice a year. Also if you use any of the advanced macros in the inspection plus book you need to do a different type of calibration then what the Haas tech will do. The one they do only touches the probe at 12'o clock, 3'o clock, 6'o clock and 9'o clock. When you start using it for measuring angled surfaces then you need to use a vector calbriation routine IIRC. this routine measure the same spots on the ring gage but rotates the probe like 10 degrees and runs through it again, then another 10 degrees and so on unitl it has used all of the probe and knows the trip points in all directions.

If a ring gage is to pricey for you you can also use a new bearing, provided you know the actual diameter (can usually be found in bearing book), this works on a budget if you are not trying to machine to 4 decimal places. With a TM1-P I would almost think this is good enough.

Yes find the inspection plus book, that way you can at least learn how to touch off and rotate the coordinates of the machine to the part IE no more dialing in the vise.

JP

[HelicopterJohn]

Hi JPMach,

I appreciate the tips and thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

John

[Donkey Hotey]

Yes find the inspection plus book, that way you can at least learn how to touch off and rotate the coordinates of the machine to the part IE no more dialing in the vise.

Good advice JP. Where would somebody start looking for the inspection plus book?

Hey John, this is all the way in Australia but this is what you're looking for...well...maybe somewhere where shipping wouldn't be so pricey. This looks exactly like the one I bought and it's cheap:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230191974096

[timan]

You will still want to get a ring gage to re calibrate the probe at least twice a year. Also if you use any of the advanced macros in the inspection plus book you need to do a different type of calibration then what the Haas tech will do. The one they do only touches the probe at 12'o clock, 3'o clock, 6'o clock and 9'o clock. When you start using it for measuring angled surfaces then you need to use a vector calbriation routine IIRC. this routine measure the same spots on the ring gage but rotates the probe like 10 degrees and runs through it again, then another 10 degrees and so on unitl it has used all of the probe and knows the trip points in all directions.

If a ring gage is to pricey for you you can also use a new bearing, provided you know the actual diameter (can usually be found in bearing book), this works on a budget if you are not trying to machine to 4 decimal places. With a TM1-P I would almost think this is good enough.

Yes find the inspection plus book, that way you can at least learn how to touch off and rotate the coordinates of the machine to the part IE no more dialing in the vise.

JP

Not sure where you are located but when Haas installs my mills they do vector calibration for me, although I know hoe to do it myself.

Also I recommend to calibrate more like once a month or as I hold .0005 with probe we calibrate on every Monday morning start up it takes a whole 10 minutes if that! Renishaw actaully recommended this

[Donkey Hotey]

Since we have a number of people here familiar with the Renishaw probing:

Haas told me a few years ago that I didn't have to have the probe in pocket #1 and that I 'caused' that when I set up the probing.

Well, tonight I cleared out the carousel, cleaned all the tools and decided to recalibrate the probing system from scratch. Guess what? Mine still wants the probe as Tool #1.

I altered the 'probe length' program in MDI to use Tool #20 (the pocket I'd like to leave it in). After running it, the offset was recorded for tool 20.

When I tried to probe the ring gauge, the program included nothing for a tool number. The generated program branches to one of the probing sub programs which then goes in search of tool number 1.

The question is: if I want my probe to be Tool 20, do I have to open every one of the probing cycles and change the tool number in each program?

I don't like the machine going home and shutting down with the most expensive tool in the spindle. The past 3 years, I've had it set to shut down with Tool #2 in the spindle. Is that the answer?

Thanks in advance,

[Cory]

when I set the probe length on our machine it asked me what pocket it was in, like you describe. I also put T20, as I don't want it being in the spindle overnight, nor do I want people who might be programming parts besides me to think they are using an endmill in T1, but are actually using the probe.

It put the offset in T20, and whenever we run a probe cycle, it calls up the proper tool. I'm not sure what your problem might be.

[HelicopterJohn]

These tips are very useful.

I will make sure the HAAS Tech who actually does the run in on my new TM-1P machine sets the probe to T10 (I only have a 10 position tool changer).

John

[JPMach]

There is a setting you can changeto make the machine shutdown with whatever tool is in the spindle at the time. I usually call an empty tool up and shut the machine down with no tool in the spindle.

I can't remember off hand which setting it is though, but I know its there.

JP

[Donkey Hotey]

Cory,

On my machine, it never prompted me for which pocket had the tool. It defaulted to T1. I had to modify it in MDI before I ran it. I thought that might set a variable for all future use of the probe but I guess it didn't.

My machine is a late 2004 model. Maybe they updated the software? Hmmm...time to call Haas tech support.

[Donkey Hotey]

Okay John, you're going to get all the probing info dumped into this thread.

I called Haas today and I guess I have the 'original' version of the probing cycles. They emailed me an updated file that is supposed to allow me to choose which pocket the probe lives in.

The other thing is that my machine has been down for awhile and the probe batteries are now dead. I took them into Radio Shack today: $18.99 each!

I bought 'em because I figured "what choice do I have?"

When I got home, I checked eBay. The same exact battery, sold in two-packs (the probe takes two so that works) for 1/4 the price: $4.38 each. The manufacture date is October 2007 so they aren't 'old stock' either.

Even with shipping and tax, I bought four batteries for half of what I paid for two at Radio Shack. Yes, I'm returning them tomorrow.

I would ordinarily patronize the local business. I don't mind paying a small premium--even twice as much on a small ticket item, but FOUR TIMES as much?!?

Oh well, end of my rant.

[HelicopterJohn]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the tip on the batteries. In as much as both the probe and the tool setter will be wireless, I will need batteries for both. I don't know what the battery life will be but will get some spares just in case.

You guys a really super, and thanks to CNC Zone for providing us a place to talk, exchange information and share ideas.

John

[Ican]

Hey Copter John, You did it right! I have that wireless Renshaw and I can tell you, it is the making of your machine! I almost didn't buy it because of that $5K price tag... but I have ALWAYS been so glad that I did. We do some pretty precision stuff and that probe saves a lot of material and headaches. The little booklets that come with the Renshaw are about all you need to get going. It is really straight forward. Like the Donkey... I had never used one and in a couple of hours I was happily sailing along. I do remove mine from the tool changer... it just cost too danged much to mistreat!
Again... GOOD FOR YOU!!! You made a perfect choice.

[Ican]

Forgot... Batteries... I got about 2 years out of my first set. If you have a Batteries Plus store... they stock the ones listed in your book. They as well have a cheaper battery... but I bought the best ones since the difference was about $5.00. ALSO... my probe kept all the calibration settings perfectly when the batteries were changed... never lost a thing. Hope this helps.

[HelicopterJohn]

Hi Ican,

I appreciate you tip on the battery purchase.

I am a newbie to CNC and have a couple of older CNC machines I have been using. This has been my first chance to purchase a new machine and wanted to get all the options that would be useful to me.

I am also a newbie to all the probing stuff. Looks like it will save me a ton of time on the setup of parts. I do a lot on small runs so I see that option as being extremely helpful.

Hi JPMach,

Just wanted to thank you for the Renishaw Manual. I would attach the PDF file but there is a 500KB limit and the file is 661KB. I would be glad to forward it to anyone who is interested. Just send me a Private message with your e-mail address and I will get it on the way.

All of you guys are the best. Nice Forum with Great, Helpful people.

John