[twocik]

I've been researching the Tormach for a little while now and finally convinced myself & girlfriend to take out a loan for a "little" christmas present. :0

I'm looking into the Basic 2 package only because I can't afford anymore. I'm mostly going to machine aluminum, plastics (derlin & polymer), and maybe a little steel.

Ok so my questions.....




1. Should I buy the upgraded steppers, or are the motors that come with it enough (looking at the 1200 oz) ?

http://www.tormach.com/Product_Components.html




2. I'm also going to need a 1 - 2 ton shop crane, just wondering if the harbor freight crane was worth it or not. This is the last thing I need, is the machine to drop on it's side and break trying to save a little money on a crane.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=35915





3. It says it comes with CAD / CAM software, but no controller software. Now I've read that it comes with Mach 3, but that was from another user, not Tormach.





4. Is the standard coolant tray good enough or should I buy the deluxe stand ?




5. Now it says complete set, but I don't see any clamping, T-nut, 123 blocks, etc... Do I need to buy them somewhere else or do they come with it ?


If so what size are the T-nuts, etc.. ?


Thanks

Chris

[drwc]

The stock steppers should do you fine.
I used a fork lift truck to mount mine, if you use engine hoist, you need the load balance bar from tormach or equivalent. Be warned, it is HEAVY, I would be concerned about using engine hoist, but others have done it.
It runs a tormach specific version of mach3, it does not come with cadcam software unless it is bundled in the package you are considering.
Can you say coolant everywhere? nuff said
You need to buy separately, 5/8 ths std T nuts

[ozzie34231]

I've got the HF foldable 2 ton engine hoist, no problem, very sturdy.
Ozzie

[wcarrothers1]

When I lifted my geared head mill on it's platform I used a chain fall pullie from one of my basement I beams to get it up on it's table. Maybe a little smaller machine then your torch (total weight at the time as it was not cnc'd yet) will be but I'm not sure how high you need to get it to get it on your table. I'm trying to think if I could have lifted my geared head high enough with my HF eng hoist. Probably could have I guess. after all I did use it to re-assemble my bridgeport series 1CNC machine after getting it in to my basement. for the money the HF eng hoist is a bargan though and helpfull for other things to.

Which brings me to another question. And this comes down to exactly how much shopping around you might want to do and if the torch is the soloution because it's new pretty and has support.... Course if you have already convinced the girl to let ya get the torch good for you and you might not want to read on....... How ever I got my bridgeport S1 R2V3 for almost nothing (ok I paid 1000 bucks at auction) and sure I might have gotten lucky but lots of people have reported getting large iron machines for almost nothing lately. In anycase I also got a TON of tooling with the machine. and after tinnkering with it and learning (yes the support isn't what the torch might be but you do have CNCZONE!!!) I've got a larger machine and didn't have to even come close to taking a loan out for it..

I come at it at a different direction though.. I built/convterted a geared head mill converted to CNC before I got the bigger bridge port. the conversion turned it in to a Very capiable machine. how ever when doing large jobs it does not even come close to compair to what my Bridgeport can or what I would do with it.

Just in my little world. 6800 is a LOT of money. Guess it's around 8K with stuff. For me that would be a lot of loan to work off..

What was your plan for the machine? Just hobby? or do you have a product in mind that you will be making with it?

b/.

[bulletfab]

I'm new to this community and just read your post. Don't know where you are located but I have a 1984 Bridgeport Series II CNC retro fitted with an Ajax controller and Steppers.

I'm new to cnc mills and got my foot wet with this about two years ago and it is a great machine. I have in the last two months purchased a Haas VF-3 and no longer need the Bridgeport. I am going to put it up on ebay next year after vacation. If it is something you are interested in let me know. I looked at the Tormach site and feel the Bridgeport is a better product, and the Ajax conversational programming makes it very easy to start making chips right away.

I'm not here to knock anybody or anything, but too much product and labor are being produced & sent oversees and it kills me.

If at all possible whatever you buy try to keep it in this country. You and your children's future depends on it. There are many old American made machines that are retro fitted or that can be retro-fitted that are 20 years plus old that are sounder machines than most imports and that can hold better tolerances. I know I did the research before buying my Bridgeport and retro-fitting it.

Good luck in your endeavor.

Mike

[Moondog]

Hello twocik....

You get what you pay for... an old but true cliche....

The Tormach is a lot of machine and at $6,800 it is really good value..

Sure there are cheaper options, there always is...

If you are considering setting up for business you need quality equipment that is up and running immediately. Tormach is a quality industrial machine.

Invest in your business and you will be well rewarded... don't skimp. Capital spending when setting up a business is always the biggest issue for small business people with limited resources....

If you are confident in what you can achieve you will succeed....

If the main reason for purchasing a CNC machine is for business then don't go down the route of buying a cheap machine and then retrofitting.... all of the time and energy spent is better put to use in establishing your business and marketing your products....

Another essential thing.... Have a formal business plan, nothing too fancy or detailed.. just write down what your business goals, potential markets and products are. If you can.. get a mentor or business adviser ..discuss your business plans with them before you start.

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me...

cheers

Moondog.... B.Bus(Accounting, Econ, BusMgt) PNA MNIA.
(formerly a Business adviser before becoming a CNC'er)

[wcarrothers1]

Bullet.. You make me remember back to the auction of my step dad's machine shop.

You know there are actually people who maka living buying these pieces of US iron, transporting them out of the country and setting them up in South America.

Got to wonder they must know something. I'm personally glad that didn't happen to my R2V3. As it easily could have. I'd buy more if I had the room..

Very sad though..

But not exactly of help to the poster..

There is something to having some support and a machine that can be used when it's dropped off. How ever 6800 isn't the end of a torch price. I'd love to hear averages spent getting one up and running with tooling ect... Seems like that price jumps to 8 or 9k real quick with their packages...

I'm Super cheap though but pretty happy with the BP I got.. Asside from that I'm not a huge fan of steppers. But all my machines are servo based

b.

[Jbradym]

Before you buy
You might also want to look at CNC Masters. I bought my mill from them and there customer service is stellar! Great machines and easy to use.
If you talk to Omar, tell him Brady refered you.
I had never been exposed to the world of CNC before and Omar talkede me into it. He said "once youv'e machined in CNC you will never go back to manual" Damn! he was right! I am using Visual mill (Mecsoft) there costomer service is also stellar. What I mean by that is you always get to talk to a person! and they are cheerful, helpful, and easy to work with. Great people all the way around!
Just my 2 cents

CNC MASTERS
MECSOFT

[twocik]

Thanks guys, I'll look into the nuts, clamping kit, etc.. maybe over at Enco.




"Which brings me to another question. And this comes down to exactly how much shopping around you might want to do and if the torch is the soloution because it's new pretty and has support.... Course if you have already convinced the girl to let ya get the torch good for you and you might not want to read on....... How ever I got my bridgeport S1 R2V3 for almost nothing (ok I paid 1000 bucks at auction) and sure I might have gotten lucky but lots of people have reported getting large iron machines for almost nothing lately. In anycase I also got a TON of tooling with the machine. and after tinnkering with it and learning (yes the support isn't what the torch might be but you do have CNCZONE!!!) I've got a larger machine and didn't have to even come close to taking a loan out for it..

I come at it at a different direction though.. I built/convterted a geared head mill converted to CNC before I got the bigger bridge port. the conversion turned it in to a Very capiable machine. how ever when doing large jobs it does not even come close to compair to what my Bridgeport can or what I would do with it.

Just in my little world. 6800 is a LOT of money. Guess it's around 8K with stuff. For me that would be a lot of loan to work off..

What was your plan for the machine? Just hobby? or do you have a product in mind that you will be making with it?"




I would love to find a machine for less, but at the moment I don't have time to make anything besides the products I need. I'm prototyping the products and then sending them off for production. I started off with a little bench top CNC DIY convert, but my machine doesn't even hold a candle to the Tormach. Believe me this machine is going to be put to use!


Almost, 10K with shipping, tooling set, programs, deluxe stand, etc.. Yes 10k is a great deal of money, but you have to spend money to make money.

[twocik]

I understand that there are always options, but which one to choose is always the case. I'm kind of new to machines/CNC (only 3 years in) and have only used only lower end CNC machines (diy). It was never a hobby for me, this was something that I jump into. I own a film business here in Naples, FL and make products on the side. The products I make are in really high demand and have had a gift with selling things my whole life. So it's pretty much been a one man show for me. All of the parts I make, need to be very very precise and dead on (optics). This is why this machine is very important and can't deal with the cheap anymore.


I see the flyer that's on the board, Precision - Rigidity, Value, and is what grabbed my attention. It's a very strong statement, and have saw some really nice looking parts come from this machine (I hope). Now I only believe half of what I see and nothing of what I hear, so this has been a really hard decision for me.

After I saw the videos of the machine at work I was hooked. Now I've read that the higher end chinese machines aren't so great and don't really hold up that well in the long run, but wasn't sure if this machine was. It's sounds like you guys are sugar coating what you would really like to say about this machine, but I could be wrong.

[ColinFitzgerald]

Hi,

I agree with Moondog. The Tormach is a *very* good value. You also *cannot* compare it directly with a retro fitted bridge port. The Tormach is NOT a knee mill: it's designed from the ground up as a CNC machine. This has many implications. Bottom line is the Tormach will perform far better then any retro fit design. If you just starting out you do not want a machine that is a project in itself. Many people will disagree with this: but older knee mills do not make good CNC machines...(activating flame shield)

The stock steppers are more then big enough. I'd get the deluxe stand: It's a good value and like any CNC machine you pretty much need flood coolant and it will get everywhere. Even the deluxe stand could use some better coolant shielding.

FYI, I bought the Tomach with a BT-30 spindle and the deluxe stand.

As for tooling, I have 2 Kurt D688 vises mounted on the machine (very perfect fit, but these are big vises for this size of machine). All of my tool holders are high end Lyndex Nikken SK collet chucks. I also bought a Lyndex digital Z setter and probe setter.

For CAD/CAM, I use Autocad for 2D layout and OneCNC XR2 for pathing.

To date, I've spent $12,000 on the machine and installation, $9500 on tooling and $4500 for OneCNC. Total of $25000. Expensive, but way less then a full size VMC.

Without question you will spend ALOT on extras. My case is an extreme example I'm sure. The Tormach TTS tooling is a far better value and people seem to really like it, but in my case I have some special requirements that justified the expensive stuff. One example is drilling holes in 6061 with a 0.0078" carbide drill. That's pretty impressive.

One last thing: My machine has worked very well, and the few problems I've had, such as bad electronics, were delt with very quickly by Tormach. I can honestly say their support far exceeds anything I've ever seen. You won't be disappointed.

You should also checkout the tormach1100 group at yahoo: it's far more active on the Tormach then this fourm.

Colin

[twocik]

"I agree with Moondog. The Tormach is a *very* good value. You also *cannot* compare it directly with a retro fitted bridge port. The Tormach is NOT a knee mill: it's designed from the ground up as a CNC machine. This has many implications. Bottom line is the Tormach will perform far better then any retro fit design. If you just starting out you do not want a machine that is a project in itself. Many people will disagree with this: but older knee mills do not make good CNC machines...(activating flame shield)"


lol (flame shield), thank for clarifying that!! I was starting to get a little disappointed.




"Tomach with a BT-30 spindle"


Hmmm didn't see this, does this allow lager tooling ? I'm looking for it now.



"To date, I've spent $12,000 on the machine and installation, $9500 on tooling and $4500 for OneCNC. Total of $25000. Expensive, but way less then a full size VMC."



That's not that bad at all! Just think this is what one of my camera's cost,



"One last thing: My machine has worked very well, and the few problems I've had, such as bad electronics, were delt with very quickly by Tormach. I can honestly say their support far exceeds anything I've ever seen. You won't be disappointed.

You should also checkout the tormach1100 group at yahoo: it's far more active on the Tormach then this fourm."



Pheeeeew I glad you brought up this, I read on another post that a guy was having big trouble with his board. They sent it out twice and still didn't work (maybe it was you, not sure). Alright cool glad to hear their support is amazing!

I'm already a member, I lurk.

[merl]

For my two cents worth I always start my search with the used machine listings like Surplus Record or HGR Industrial supply.
Most of what you'll find is the kind of equipment a fulltime shop would have but, if you make your living as a professional machinist these are the kind of machines you would be most familiar with anyway.
You can find the smaller stuff with a little effort and the quality and durability of the industrial rated machines is far beond the stuff you get at Harbor Freight.
I have not run a Tormach myself but everyong I've talked to that has one likes them as long as they stay within thier capacity.
For my money, unless I could only have a machine of a certain max weight or size, I would be looking for a used Milltronics VM16 or something like that.

[DF-ENTERPRISES]

Hi there I was just reading your posts and I read one about sombody who has a cnc master jr mill. I glad you had good luck with it because i didn't. My main problem is the machine locking up all the time due to interference between the control and the computer. I bought the machine brand new in 2004 with all the options. Varible speed spindle, coolant, stand, etc.. Anyways I have a home shop with alot of work and I just didn't have time to figure out what was going on with it so I really never used it much.I would guess theres only 20 hrs on it I probably have about 7-8 thousand dollars into it. So if anybody is interested I'll let it go for $4000. Cnc masters does have good tech support and they tried to help me. I just had bad luck with it. I have a cnc Bridgeport V2xt that I have much better luck with.

Thanks

P.S. I would not by that Tormach cnc mill. I been down that road.
Get yourself a used Cnc Bridgeport Series 1 or 2. There all over the place for sale.

[twocik]

"Milltronics VM16"


WOW that's a really nice machine, but starting at $50,000 that's getting expensive. I'm going to check out ebay just to get an idea of price range. Looks like it has a auto-tool change...




Sorry to hear DF-ENTERPRISES, but at 9,000 I would have sent it back or had them replace the board, etc...



"P.S. I would not by that Tormach cnc mill. I been down that road."


Why do you say that ? Did you own one of these as well ?

[307startup]

wcarrothers1, Jbradym, merl...please Please PLEASE!!!

DO EVERYONE ON THE ZONE A FAVOR AND READ THE ****ING POST!!!

twocik was not asking for your bull**** opinion about a retrofitted Bridgeport or a used industrial machine.

If you can't ****ING READ and stick to the topic at hand, don't ****ING POST!!! I hate driveling retards who can't be bothered to stop themselves from vomiting their pretentious opinions on someone's thread.

Stop badmouthing the Tormach mill, just because you think you're supporting AMERICA with your converted Bridgy...running NOOK ballscrews and Taiwan stepper motors or servos...
Christalmighty, just stop pissing on peoples parades...be happy for TWOCIK that he found a machine he likes and can afford and is now making a go of this hobby, perhaps turning it into a business.
And yes, I own a Tormach, so I know what the hell I'm talking about!

[DF-ENTERPRISES]

I didn't mean to piss anyone off with my last post and I apoligize if I did.

Hi Twocik, Reguarding my cnc JR. I sent the whole control unit back to them about 3 or 4 times for them to fix it and I still had problems with that PC based control unit. Maybe that Tormach will give you better luck than my cnc Jr did. Anyways my only point to you was any of those bench top machines can only get you only so far. You will probably want somthing bigger and that is more rigid and more reliable sooner than you think. Your just very limited. I been in business since 1997 and thats what I found in my business experience.

As for WYLD a Bridgeport V2XT in not a converted or retrofitted machine. It came from the factory a full blown cnc machine with a power drawbar and cat 30 tooling. You can find a used machine like this for about 8K to 10K usually with tooling. By the way the topic was from and about a small business owner and I know what Im talking about so keep the rude comments to yourself.

Thanks and good night.....

[307startup]

I didn't mean to piss anyone off with my last post and I apoligize if I did.

Hi Twocik, Reguarding my cnc JR. I sent the whole control unit back to them about 3 or 4 times for them to fix it and I still had problems with that PC based control unit. Maybe that Tormach will give you better luck than my cnc Jr did. Anyways my only point to you was any of those bench top machines can only get you only so far. You will probably want somthing bigger and that is more rigid and more reliable sooner than you think. Your just very limited. I been in business since 1997 and thats what I found in my business experience.

As for WYLD a Bridgeport V2XT in not a converted or retrofitted machine. It came from the factory a full blown cnc machine with a power drawbar and cat 30 tooling. You can find a used machine like this for about 8K to 10K usually with tooling. By the way the topic was from and about a small business owner and I know what Im talking about so keep the rude comments to yourself.

Thanks and good night.....

DF-Enterprises...
Please note I did not include your name in my previous post. The Exact CNC and Exact JR are not the same machine. They are a similar style. I'm sorry you didn't get satisfactory results with your machine.
As for the Bridgeport V2X, I know that it is a factory CNC machine. I was talking about the Bridgeport retrofits & clone retrofits. A knee mill is a less than satisfactory machine for a lot of projects. For some projects it absolutely can't be beat.
I can do some pretty cool stuff with my Tormach that I can't with my Jet. The rigidity isn't even comparable. My Jet shimmies and jaggles while my Tormach just bites in. Of course, I have also put a 3hp motor on my Tormach, so it's in another country in terms of performance.

[Jbradym]

wcarrothers1, Jbradym, merl...please Please PLEASE!!!

DO EVERYONE ON THE ZONE A FAVOR AND READ THE ****ING POST!!!

twocik was not asking for your bull**** opinion about a retrofitted Bridgeport or a used industrial machine.

If you can't ****ING READ and stick to the topic at hand, don't ****ING POST!!! I hate driveling retards who can't be bothered to stop themselves from vomiting their pretentious opinions on someone's thread.

Stop badmouthing the Tormach mill, just because you think you're supporting AMERICA with your converted Bridgy...running NOOK ballscrews and Taiwan stepper motors or servos...
Christalmighty, just stop pissing on peoples parades...be happy for TWOCIK that he found a machine he likes and can afford and is now making a go of this hobby, perhaps turning it into a business.
And yes, I own a Tormach, so I know what the hell I'm talking about!

Talk about vomit.....

[NinerSevenTango]

I've had my Tormach for about 2 years now. I'll say a couple things about the subject:

1) I looked at used machines. Retrofitting a knee mill is a large project (a hobby all by itself). Used 'big' CNC's are pricey and they are a pig in a poke and repair parts and labor are out friggin rageous. I owned a HAAS once and loved it, but you don't want to know how much a servo board costs.

2) The Tormach is a lot of machine for the money, and it performs as good as or better than advertised. Stock servos are plenty strong enough to bog down the spindle motor and break a 3/4" end mill like a twig if you're not careful.

3) Accuracy is better than I need. When I design and build something for either a press or slip fit on a bearing, I mill the pocket with an end mill. The hole is a very tiny bit out of round, but I haven't taken my boring tool out of the box yet. Anyway, for the stuff I do, once I get an end mill dialed in by adjusting its diameter .0005" or so in my CAD/CAM program, the parts come out exactly right on.

4) I could use something with a little more power, but I'm getting everything done at 1/10th the price of a 'big' CNC.

5) The way I push tooling on the Tormach, makes a whole lot of noise if you try it on a Bridgeport. The Tormach is rigid enough to take it.

6) I wouldn't part with my TTS, and every accessory I bought from them is top notch. And I bought one of almost everything they were selling at the time.

7) I had a few startup glitches, and a few later on when I took stuff out of the box to use over a year after I got it. What I got from Tormach was intelligent tech support, no B.S., no static, no problem, no delays. They run their business like I run mine. They have my gratitude and my respect.

8) The mill comes with Mach3 software. Mine came with Mach2. They gave me a free upgrade and I haven't had time to even install it yet (it works the way it is). Buy the computer from Tormach, it saves hours of configuration time, and it needs to be configured right. And no, you won't have noise problems. Get the platform to hold the keyboard and monitor. I bought the small keypad for jogging, and I don't use it, I just use the regular keyboard.

9) I bought the deluxe stand, and added splash shields, upgraded the sump capacity, changed some other things. I need lots of coolant gushing, and it still splashes all over. Wear a bib! I also put some lexan sheets in the thing to give me a surface on each side to catch chips on, it saves a lot of digging around in the bottom. And I added a coolant hose with a sprayer nozzle for flushing chips. I make a lot of chips!

10) When Tormach comes out with a mill with longer travels, I will buy it.

I use mine for hobby and incidentally for my job on occasion. It doesn't get used daily, but when I do use it, I use the heck out of it. I wouldn't think of buying a wimpier machine. A CNC knee mill would be nice to have as a second machine, because there are some things you can fit on there that you can't put on a Tormach. But for most things the Tormach is faster and more rigid.

Speed on a CNC is more about learning to do setups and minimizing time learning how to get your CAD/CAM program to do what you want it to than it is about fast travels and horsepower. That is, unless you are going to set it up to do one repetitive job, and then you ought to be getting enough money to buy a 'big' one with ATC anyway. Once you get practiced with your programming and setups, you can make parts more accurately and a lot faster than by hand on a knee mill the old-fashioned way.

Hope that helps,

--97T--