[ckm]

Just as an FYI to every one CNCzone. I would avoid these drives like the plague. They are often quite cheap to buy on ebay, and there is a reason for this.

They are unwilling to answer even basic questions about their hardware and, if you ask, will tell you that they never support end-users. I asked them a simple question, and got a rather annoying form answer about 'not supporting end-users'. It may be a nice product (who knows since you basically can't use it), but the company's policies make it essentially impossible for anyone to realistically use these.

And if you are an OEM, you can expect to have to provide direct end-user support forever and you should be aware that there will essentially be no residual value in these components (aka, Teknic's refusal to answer any questions unless you are OEM destroys the secondary market value of these devices). And, if you go out of business (not a pleasant thought, but it happens), your customers are screwed.

I would strongly suggest anyone looking at Teknic hardware to look at Rutex or Yaskawa instead. With Rutex, you get direct access to the designers of the hardware and Yaskawa has pretty good support. Given that Yaskawa drives and motors are plentiful on eBay, they are an obvious choice for higher end servo control, even if it's trying to match drivers and motors (patience is a virtue here...).

If you are looking at using brushless servo's with drives that are motor agnostic, Granite Devices (based in Finland) would be a lower-cost alternative. For low cost brushed servo, the Gecko drives are one of the best solutions. New, they are the same price as Yaskawa used. They have fewer features, but Mariss (the designer) is more than willing to answer any and all questions, reason alone to use his hardware. And his reasoning for providing this level of support is refreshing:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=14

In my day job (I do CNC and other stuff as a small side business), I advise very large companies on technology and business strategies, and the successful ones essentially understand what Mariss talks about. However, quite a few companies could learn a lot by reading Mariss's post, including Teknic.

Yes, it's annoying to have to deal with random questions about hardware from people you've never heard of before, esp. if you are a small business, but it's far worse to just dismiss people because you can't be bothered. Esp. if you are a small business....

As a last note, Mitsubishi Automation has some stellar support. I emailed them about specs for a 20 year old servo and they sent them to me a couple of hours later. Others have called them to get support on 15 year old controls and gotten extensive help, even though they were third or fourth owners of the machinery...

Chris.

[Al_The_Man]

As a last note, Mitsubishi Automation has some stellar support. I emailed them about specs for a 20 year old servo and they sent them to me a couple of hours later. .

I will second that regarding Mitsubishi support etc., especially the Canadian MEAU have excellent technical/parts support.
I also recommend AMC drives as a replacement for older DC drives and if you use a BLDC drive for a brushed motor , you can upgrade to a BLDC motor later.
Al.

[elec]

Just as an FYI to every one CNCzone. I would avoid these drives like the plague. They are often quite cheap to buy on ebay, and there is a reason for this.

They are unwilling to answer even basic questions about their hardware and, if you ask, will tell you that they never support end-users. I asked them a simple question, and got a rather annoying form answer about 'not supporting end-users'. It may be a nice product (who knows since you basically can't use it), but the company's policies make it essentially impossible for anyone to realistically use these.


Chris.

Hi Chris,
I think you may be confusing TEKNIC with CNC TEKNIX.
These are two totally separate companies.

TEKNIC is based in the USA http://www.teknic.com/products/servo_drive.php

CNC TEKNIX is based in Australia http://cncteknix.com
We at CNC Teknix pride ourselves in our quality products & customer support.

Thank you,
Vince, CNC Teknix

[ckm]

Vince is right. I have no experience with CNC Teknix in Australia, I was specifically referring to Teknic, an American company based in New York who make the SSt-1000 and SSt-1500 series of servo drives, among other things.

Thanks for the clarification and sorry for the confusion.

Chris.

[routerman]

I found the Tecknic drives hard to use as well. They need hard to get connectors and tech support give you the run around. Too many wires to run to each motor.
I agree with everything you said except recommending Gecko servo drives. Their stepper drives are good, but that servo drive is just a toy.
IMO,the Rutex or Viper drives are much better for DC servo.

[ckm]

I don't think I would qualify the Geckos as toys, but there are certainly not in the same league as Yaskawa.

Then again, then are not meant to be, they are supposed to be low-budget alternatives to systems that used to cost min. $1000 per axis.... Even Rutex drives get up there when you price out all the options.

Chris.

[jimhat42]

I will second that, that Teknic is extremely stubborn and just flat out refuses to provide any technical assistance. They do however provide excellent documentation (user manuals on their website) and if you can get their drives that are new or you know are 100% working, they really are good drives, but the service definately taints their reputation.

[Mike Everman]

I am an OEM user of Teknic products, so I do get a better level of support than an end user would (sorry!). I too get calls from folks buying my stages and robots on ebay and want support. If I can't solve it with a quick email of wiring or a part number, it's very tough to provide more and survive, and commissioning a servo system from ground zero can be many phone calls deep.

The Teknic guys are great, but like me, limited by how much time their engineers have for such support. I see Victors prowling around here. He's an app engineer for them, and I'll check to see if his plan is to be regularly supportive here. I think it's important, but alas, they may not. You never know what'll come of it, is my opinion.

I'd also be happy to answer questions on their drives if folks need it. I don't agree that the connectors are hard to find, however, Molex Mini-fits are dime a dozen.

Sorry, I don't have a defense for either of our companies not being able to support a hundred one-time users, vs. a few OEM's ordering thousands of the same thing. Wish I could! I'll talk to them about it and see if there are some documents that could be made available that'll take the sting out of no-one at the other end of the phone. Don't throw out those amps yet! They're the highest performance for the buck you're going to see, but yeah, not exactly plug and play! ;-)

[ckm]

I didn't ask for support, just documentation. The answer was NO.

In my view, that makes them the worst of the worst companies to deal with. Basically, proprietary to the n-th degree and worth staying away from even if you are an OEM. If you go out of business, your customers are screwed and that's never good.

Note that there is a similarly named company in Australia, but they are not related and do provide good docs and end-user support.

Chris.

[Mike Everman]

Point is, if you still want a doc, I can get it for you. I do get it, though. It is a very sophisticated amp and would be difficult to "hunt and peck" through the settings.

Ever used a Delta Tau control? sheesh If you really need to do anything bleeding edge, it's the thing, but try to get support, even as an OEM! Same deal, and any of the 10,000 variables set wrong can de-rail you. There are hundreds of control solutions out there that will go unsupported for ebay buyers.

Again, though, it pains me to hear someone needing something simple and not getting it, in order to use this fine product. For no one in particular but myself, I'll see if I can A: get more docs available online, or B: see if anyone there wants to keep an eye on a forum here. It's an amazing amp and worth some effort.

Just so you know, Bearing Engineers in California private labels these amps (literally just a different color), and maybe they have more on their site, or with a call. Though we'll all have trouble getting phone support from distributors when we did not purchase from them.

[sjalife]

Hi Guys

I personally liked this thread much, because I am somewhat in between of you two.
I am a DIYer that purchased several Teknic drives (SST-1500), and some motors and started doing tests and automating stuff... You know. The works.
I too had a limited response from the support team, and more even a worse one from the sales team, stating that I needed to buy large qty's for them to sell to me.
All that is true. What I can say for all you who are considering buying these drives on ebay is this: GO FOR IT!!! They have SUPERB documentation available on their website, all you have to do is "register", (which means entering your info, that's it. No commitment, no nothing), and the drives are fantastic, they work flawlessly, and are REALLY simple to work with one you READ THE MANUAL.
It's as simple as that... I have implemented them in 3 - 5 diferent projects now.

On the other hand, since those DIY days, I now work on a company which are requiring these types of systems, and am in process of instating these drives as a std for our solutions, and hoping to become an OEM large enough for them to service me directly.


By the way Mike, I saw your site, (BellHome), you guys have some awesome solutions.
I'll give u a call next week to discuss them.


Thanx!

Hope this is helpfull

[Mike Everman]

Thanks for the kind words. I look forward to your call. Here's a test I did a couple of weeks ago using those amps on a KAOS Robot. Very fun piece of work!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5jGBE-Xcg4"]YouTube - KAOS Robot doing a high speed pick and place move[/ame]

[asuratman]

Hello Al,
What is your recommended cheap BLDC motor? Let me know. I have searching for this kind BLDC but mostly no detail specifications.

[Joe T]

I am an OEM user of Teknic products, so I do get a better level of support than an end user would (sorry!). I too get calls from folks buying my stages and robots on ebay and want support. If I can't solve it with a quick email of wiring or a part number, it's very tough to provide more and survive, and commissioning a servo system from ground zero can be many phone calls deep.

The Teknic guys are great, but like me, limited by how much time their engineers have for such support. I see Victors prowling around here. He's an app engineer for them, and I'll check to see if his plan is to be regularly supportive here. I think it's important, but alas, they may not. You never know what'll come of it, is my opinion.

I'd also be happy to answer questions on their drives if folks need it. I don't agree that the connectors are hard to find, however, Molex Mini-fits are dime a dozen.

Sorry, I don't have a defense for either of our companies not being able to support a hundred one-time users, vs. a few OEM's ordering thousands of the same thing. Wish I could! I'll talk to them about it and see if there are some documents that could be made available that'll take the sting out of no-one at the other end of the phone. Don't throw out those amps yet! They're the highest performance for the buck you're going to see, but yeah, not exactly plug and play! ;-)

Mike,

How many Teknic 'units' do you purchase in a typical year? In other words, what volume justifies becoming an 'OEM?'

Regards,
Joe T.

[ger21]

He posted that 8 years ago.....

[Mike Everman]

He posted that 8 years ago.....

My goodness, where does the time go???

In answer to the question, 500+ of various things, though we were an OEM with far less. It's not about how much all the time, it's about credibility that extra support will pay off in volume someday.

In the ensuing years here, my opinion is modified a bit. I'd skip the second hand amps and buy new Clearpath motors with integrated amplifiers from their site. Those are very reasonable, and I do believe they are phone supporting the onesy-twosy customer for those as it is much simpler. I'm using them more and more. The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control, so in that way it's exactly like running a stepper system without feedback. In every other way, it's night and day, servo vs. stepper.

I need to hang out here more. I can't believe it's been so long between drinks. Hi Ger.
Best regards,
Mike

[Joe T]

My goodness, where does the time go???

In answer to the question, 500+ of various things, though we were an OEM with far less. It's not about how much all the time, it's about credibility that extra support will pay off in volume someday.

In the ensuing years here, my opinion is modified a bit. I'd skip the second hand amps and buy new Clearpath motors with integrated amplifiers from their site. Those are very reasonable, and I do believe they are phone supporting the onesy-twosy customer for those as it is much simpler. I'm using them more and more. The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control, so in that way it's exactly like running a stepper system without feedback. In every other way, it's night and day, servo vs. stepper.

I need to hang out here more. I can't believe it's been so long between drinks. Hi Ger.
Best regards,
Mike

Mike,

Thank you. I was hoping you had subscribed to this thread - - - -

Well, you just ruined my day!!!

I had hoped to upgrade my router from the Teknic M-4780-FH/H1 servo motors with the Teknic SST 3000 drives and move from a WinCNC control software (not a closed loop system) to the appropriate Clearpath unit and Mach 4 control software.

"The only downside I've run into is that they will not pass the encoder signals out to the control"

SOL now!!!

Any suggestions? I need a true closed loop system.

Regards,
Joe T.

PS

May I PM you about the Teknic SST 3000 drive problem I am having?

[Mike Everman]

Why do you need true closed loop? Are you running the amps in torque mode and using the control to close the loop? All they do in step systems is report where they are sending the motor, rather than truly where it is. At least these are actually going to be where you send it with no possibility of cogging.

Not sure I can help with your 3000 issue. Let's tackle it here rather than PM'ing.

Mike

[Joe T]

Mike,

First off, I am not a CNC technician.

I have a CNC router which uses four Teknic M-4780-FH/H1 servo motors and four Teknic SST 3000 Servo Drives. The machine has a problem which took me quite a while to diagnose the root cause. I have had a little support from Teknic, despite their OEM policy. To their credit, they have tried to support me in a limited manor.


Why do you need true closed loop?

I finally diagnosed the problem. It was caused by a bad drive. The CNC control software on my machine is WinCNC, which is not closed loop with respect to tool position.

I believe there are at least two reasons why a closed loop control software should be used on a complex machine:

1.) If the servo encoder/drive communicated back to the control software, i.e. "closed the loop," then my machine probably would not have experienced the errors the bad drive created since the control software would continue to 'drive' the motion to the correct tool position.

2.) CNC routers, mills, etc., which have multiple axes that must be perfectly coordinated, can develop problems with the motion control system. If the control software is closed loop, then PERHAPS the problem with 'self-correct' as suggested in #1 above. If the control software is open loop, then if an error occurs, especially a minor error of only a few thousandths, the machine will not close properly. By 'Close' in this context I mean not return to the original starting position accurately. Normally, 'not closing' indicates there has been some kind of change in spindle alignment. The only machine I have run before, besides my 'commodity' router using WinCNC control software, was a serious CMS 5 axis router. This machine had a full closed loop control system. So, when it did not close properly, it was due to alignment issues. Machines such as the CMS are run hard and sometimes mistakes are made by the operator or programmer. It is easy to cause an alignment problem with so much power available - hitting the stock too rapidly, etc. In my machine, is the error caused by a control software problem or an alignment problem? It took quite a while to diagnose my problem.

Some History:

I ordered a NEW Teknic SST 3000 ACW from Motion Solutions, the only Teknic distributor, previously know as Bearing Engineering. When I received the new Teknic SST 3000 and installed the drive, it solved the error issue!! FANTASTIC!! Unfortunately, the new drive would not 'enable.' Enable means communicating back to the control software when/if a drive aborts or faults.

WinCNC showed me how to use the machine to check out the error issue by not enabling the drive in the win.ini file. That is how I tested the new drive. But, one can not use the machine if one of the drives is not enabled. It creates a safety hazard and also could ruin an expensive part.

Motion Solutions tried a few times to get the drive to enable, but was never successful. So, I had to return the new drive to Motion Solutions. Very sad.

I currently have the bad drive at Ampion Industrial Servo & Controls Repair Inc. trying to get it fixed. This is the second trip to their facility. Somehow, they managed to change the 'Motor Setup' parameters on the repaired drive and reduced the maximum torque to ~1/20 the correct value. It never ends - - -

I hope Ampion can fix the Motor Setup parameter problem. I am quickly running out of options.

I find it very strange that Teknic does not support end users. All of the major motion control equipment providers, such as Siemens and Yaskawa, have available support. They charge for it, but it is available. It could be a profit center for them.

Long rant. Sorry.

But, I have to ask, why would ANYONE buy motion control equipment from Teknic? You will retire one day and perhaps close your company. How will your customers get Teknic support?

If I had known what I do now, I would never have purchased this used router with Teknic systems. Too many other options.

Late Breaking News:

I just received a response to my request to Teknic asking them which Clearpath would be a good substitute for the M-4780-FH/H1 motor. Their reply: "The ClearPath line is in a different power class than the 4780 - Teknic currently doesn't offer any new motor replacements for the 4780."

Regards,
Joe T.

[ger21]

move from a WinCNC control software (not a closed loop system) to ....................................... and Mach 4 control software.


I need a true closed loop system.

Mach4 is not a closed loop control either.
If you want a low cost closed loop system, LinuxCNC is really your only option.