[tricky]

Hi Folks,

We are about to out our 4 Arrow 500's with A2100 control on in the next few weeks and are struggling to find some thing to replace them with.

We don't want any more A2100 machines because their resale value in the UK is plumiting faster than a lead weight, so buying some Arrow mk2's (if I could find some) would be a bad waste of money and the control's are getting more and more expensive to fix (even without genuine parts)

So we don't want to fork out on new VF1's which would come in at just under £30k each and they don't have 3 in UK stock and the Super Mini-Mills have tiny tool changes.

So apart from looking to try and find 3 identical Fanuc control machines in good condition, we are thinking about used Haas's, because they seem to grow on trees at the moment for around £15k.

We were thinking about VF0 / VF1's around 1998 which would appear to still have the CRT type monitors.

Is their much between them, have they changed much, I read some stuff about DC servo's which worries me, when did they move to AC motors ?

I understand that Haas controls are basically PC based, like the A2100's so can I put a ethernet card staight in one around the late 1990's or do we need expensive options ?

Would an average 1997 VF0 still interpilate a round bore down to 0.0005" (12 microns) like our Arrows still can ?

Any advice would be greatfully received !

[gar]

080401-0941 EST USA

tricky:

Sometime between 96 and 98 HAAS changed to brushless servos. Also there continuously are program changes that add new features. The brushless servos are better because they avoid the carbon dust problem. Also the same DC power supply is used for the servos and spindle motor. This probably reduces regenerative power losses if large enough filter capacitors are used.

I would not classify the control as PC based. Whether it uses any Microsoft code I do not know. The 8.3 filename limitation does not define it as PC based, whatever PC based is supposed to mean. No you can not just go out and buy an Ethernet card and plug it in.

Will an old machine make a round hole? Depends upon the condition of the mechanical components. Go to my web site at
http://www.beta-a2.com/misc_photos.html and view photo P8. This was done on a VF-3 of 1996 vintage in 1998.

.

[tricky]

Hi Gar,
Those are some nice parts you have made there,
Much like the sort of parts we make.

The transition mark is common on any machine that has got badly adjusted backlash, worn ballscrews/nuts/thrust bearings or servo gain problems.

I've never seen such a promenant mark on a job done by a machine that is only a few years olds.

The question is though is a Haas any worse than any other B class machine ?

I was told buy a guy that the older Haas's used a standard pc 486 motherboard, mabee he was talking bol***ks !

Can you read Haas format 3 1/2" floppies on a destop pc ?

[captian]

You can read your haas programs on any computer with windows on in note pad. There are late 90's vf machines still making surgical implants. I still see the very early plastic guarded machines still going strong , if you buy any of the older dc machines find out if they have been serviced in the last 12 months if not you can be looking at up to 1.5 / 2 days to service all the motors and the machine.All the circuit boards inside are made by haas there is no way to connect e-net on the older machines, you can have e-net on the newer machines but you have to change the video board and buy the option code from haas. most people just use the dnc link on the older machines.

[gar]

080401-1811 EST USA

tricky:

A 486 does not define a PC based control. And I do not know what would be a good definition of a PC based system. Certainly I believe I would include that it be a general purpose computer that allows easy installation of many different machine language programs to perform almost any function I wanted. HAAS is not such a computer. I have no normal way to load a 486 binary code program into HAAS. Whereas I can write a program in many different languages (direct binary, assembly language, Fortran, Basic, and others) and easily load and run the program on a normal PC.

The standard DOS IBM formated disk is used by HAAS. Same floppy format is used under Windows. There are many comments about floppy errors. This may result from the generally lower quality of floppy drives today because of their very low price, problems with disks, and the long cable from the front of the machine to the main processor.

My photo of a circular pocket has an extremely good circular path and does not imply any mechanical problems. Note the erorr I indicated at the enter exit point is about 50/1,000,000 inch, and this is about 2 times the encoder quantizing increment on the axis lead screw. Also note this is the transition from a smaller arc to the pocket arc at both the entry and exit. What you see in the transition is mostly a visual effect, and not one you would feel with your finger.

I doubt that you will find most used HAAS machines will do this well.

.

[tricky]

Hi Gar,
"A 486 does not define a PC based control."
I actually said a 486 PC motherboard which means using a standard desktop pc off the shelf part, and maybe changing the bios chip etc.

Hi Captian,
"you can have e-net on the newer machines but you have to change the video board "

I guess in that case that they are using an industrial type pc on a card which contains the brains,video,ram etc. and that is plugged onto a backplane which the drive interfaces I/O cards etc plug into ?
(rather than using a standard desktop pc type motherboard)
otherwise changing the video card to get ethernet would sound a bit odd !

Thanks guys

[Donkey Hotey]

I understand that Haas controls are basically PC based

Nope. Somebody gave you bad information. Not PC based. No PC based motherboard. No 486. No Intel processor.

In fact: its closest cousin is a Macintosh. Haas uses a proprietary board and uses twin Motorola 68030 processors. They were last used in a Macintosh around 1993-1994 in the Mac II line.

Don't let that sway you though. Macs always used the better chipsets and this was no different. They were chosen by Haas because they were full 32 bit processors with math co processor provisions. For a CNC control, they are still way more than adequate. The newest machines use the Coldfire processor which is just the latest generation of that same Motorola chip.

[tricky]

Thanks for the info guys,

We spoke to Haas service and their tech guy ran through various revisons which have gone on over the years.

Imagine my shock when he told us that you can't retrofit ethernet on a 1999 machine !!!!!!

our old arrows could do that in 1995 for a £250 upgrade.

You can only do it on machine with the later processors which means machines that are much over a yaer old can't have it.

After you have had ethernet you don't want to go back to rs232 or floppies or usb sticks.

We have now almost ditched the idea of some Haas's and will go for 3 new leadwells instead.

Going to do our own cutting trial on a machine on Monday, so we will see how that goes

Cheers

[ltmquik]

Sounds like you keep justifying keeping the Arrows. You keep referring to all the benefits of them.